What causes so many DMs and DMILs to behave so badly?

[lborgia]

The older I get the more years I spend on MN the more baffled I get about whether something just happens to some women that they all start to display these weird behaviours.

So here are my musings - I'd be really interested if anyone has professional, academic, or anecdotal info to share.

1 - This is entirely a product of older generations being abandoned in prams to scream and scream so they got fresh air. This leaves a gaping hole in their development that leaves them feeling constantly unloved and a bottomless well neediness . (This is my favourite theory and entirely made up and without scientific basis).

2 - Narcissism - are the parents who we now perceive as having narcissistic tendencies the ones who then become unbearable mothers of the bride? And then difficult gms? Have there always been this many Narcissistic people or is it on the increase? Because of a change in parenting practices? Because of the abandonment above?

3 - Have women been raised, until relatively recently, to be pliant and put their needs after everyone else in the family and at some point the resentment builds to a point of no return? Does something happen when kids have gone. .there's room for the mother to start, I don't know, change?

4 - the menopause/importance of looks/getting old. Don't have a whole sentence for this, but something about losing relevance? Looks? Being invisible?

So I realise that this may sound ridiculous, as it is only based on my own experience, and a long interest in mothers/in laws of my friends, but it seems rampant, and makes so many people unhappy.

Ignore me if I'm being bonkers?!

I'm asking about these personalities because they're the ones that interest me, and impact on my life. And as goddess and I discussed at the beginning, I started with the caveat that this was just my own list of wonderings ("musings, if you will"). That's the whole point. I have to assume that you have thoughts and theories that pop into your head before you have a chance to read up, verify, perhaps do your own double blind control study .

I agreed with 4 pages of other people's experiences. If I didn't agree with someone, I maybe didn't debate it because that was their experience and ideas. That's what I'm interested in. Not saying they're wrong. I think it was pretty clear that everyone here was invited to say what they think, everyone makes assumptions, everyone makes generalisations, and it was quite right that those who felt got at, said so.

I want to know how someone becomes like this. I might be worried that I, or my children could end up the same way. It is something most people would wish to avoid if they'd experienced it.

I didn't have a conclusion, that's why I asked. Others shedding light. Finding common experiences.

Right. I'm off to spend time with my MIL. Bizarre, she rang earlier and suggested it. She is the mother I wish I'd had, but I'm fully aware I'd feel differently if she'd actually been my mother.

Being a mother is an unforgiving, impossible job. Discussing one aspect of what can happen, and why it can become so painful, can hardly be foolish.

It is interesting that MILs and DILs get most of the "blame" or" accusation" on this thread.

We have had a FIL who gave his DIL an awful time of it which worsened as soon as the FIL found out that the DIL was more highly qualified in the same profession as he had been in.
We have a SIL who is an absolute PITA. That is SonIL and BIL. Male! His DW has been spoken to about how his conduct affects the family but she wont stop him or perhaps she cant but she has not asked for help which she would get.
There was a TV program about violent and abusive children. Actual children not adult children who beat up their parents. They are likely to make really bad SILs and DILs in the future.
I know a DGM and her DP who are not even allowed their own children due to their conduct (illegal)
It is a long way off but I wonder what my role will be in the future.

I just wonder where all this is going.

think it was pretty clear that everyone here was invited to say what they think, everyone makes assumptions, everyone makes generalisations

Yes lborgia but most people stop to think about whether their assumptions and generalisations are prejudiced, discriminatory and offensive.

Which a lot of the comments on this thread have been. (Not a narc 55-75 year old btw)

It's ok, folks. Once the current generation of awful mothers in law die out, a newer, fantastic generation of mothers in law will take over. In fact, I predict that in ten years time, the age old mil/dil antagonism will no longer exist.

Oh you are so wrong, IrishDad, I intend to last longer than ten years

It wasn't the Dr Spock generation that got shoved in the garden; it was Truby King
Exactly
What's all this baby boomer narcissist shit. Tired of it now.

Not RTFT but a lot of "problem MIL" threads on here tend to be more a case of problem DHs who won't stand up for their wives and partners.

SamanthaBrique
"Not RTFT but a lot of "problem MIL" threads on here tend to be more a case of problem DHs who won't stand up for their wives and partners."

Isn't your attitude a big part of the whole problem, though? Dils expect their husbands to take their side in whatever battle they've got going on with the mil, and mil is saying "she's turning my son against me". Why is everything a battle, why are husbands expected to "pick sides"?

Why is everything a battle, why are husbands expected to "pick sides"?
Cos this is MN Irish.

I find some of the responses more offensive than the OP tbh. You only have to look in the workplace to see that difficult, narcissistic behaviour is not the preserve of ant particular age group, gender etc. Neither is easy-going, constructive, helpful behaviour.

The reasons why people behave like this are no different for DMs and MILs than for anyone else-partly the persons intrinsic nature and partly because they have learned that it works for them. Sometimes fear and insecurity are behind the difficult behaviour.
The only thing that can be done about it is the application of self-discipline and consideration for others. If you are on the receiving end make sure the perpetrator gets no advantage from it. Try to give children a secure upbringing but with firm boundaries. If they have that nature though you may not be able to modify it completely.

There is nothing special about why older women behave this way and it is discriminatory to single them out from everyone else.

I agree, Rockie. Despite all the evidence that there have always been difficult people in this world, some posters here prefer to just write-off everyone old, claiming it is because we are baby-boomers, whatever that is supposed to have to do with it.

Ye gods the thought police have to shut down every thread that dares to mention MILs or age demographics.

Yet it is an interesting thing to ponder - the social dynamics of what goes on when dependant children grow up and leave and other adults become more important to them are interesting, and we all (if we are lucky) go through all the ages and stages - we are all somebody's young dependant child, then somebody's adult child moving away from them and replacing our parents with partners and in many cases children of our own, and then often of course any children will move away and replace us with their own families.

Denying that there are differences in the experiences of different generations is also just ostrich like for no reason - often if you understand somebody's prior life experiences you can try to relate to them more positively or constructively or with more empathy. Sometimes it is easier to cope with people with whom you have a difficult relationship if you have some insight into why they might have ambiguous or uncomfortable feelings about you, or preconceptions about how predefined family relationships play out, which are not necessarily personal.

Yet considering any of that is ageist because people dare to mention things that they have not experienced as positive in their relationships with people of their parents' generation

Why is everything a battle, why are husbands expected to "pick sides"
^^ This

Some of it sounds truly awful. As if when you marry a man he must disrespect and almost disown his mother, the woman who brought him up and presumably did fine since he was deemed husband material! & side with his wife against his mother 2 against 1. Then loads of people piling in being sarcastic about his mother... I recall seeing one ages ago when MIL was dissed for doing the laundry (she did it regularly) when OP said she was happy and grateful but liked it done her way, speaking in such a belittling way. Lots agreeing. I just thought do it your bloody self then don't relax whilst she does it then land on here taking the piss

As for the notion that once you reach a certain age you become silly and narcissistic..what a dumb, crass notion I guess the same women who generalise would hurriedly say "oh no that won't be me tho" in which case that theory is dispelled somewhat isn't it? Its the usual ageism

"replacing our parents with partners"

I think this might be the key to the whole problem. Why should we "replace" our parents with partners? Why do women expect men to do this in a way that men don't seem to expect women to? We have lots of relationships in our lives- if I had a partner who expected me to "replace" my best friend with him I would e outraged. Is it something to do with the way so many women seem to "parent" their male partners? They have to detach him from his real mother to allow them to be the surrogate? .

My partner loves his mother very much, and she dotes on him- he was a baby she fought tooth and nail to keep against the wishes of her family and her church when she was pregnant at 14. I don't particularly like her, but it would be unforgivable of me to try to undermine their relationship, and expect him to take his love away from her to give to me. He had plenty for us both. Loving her doesn't make him love me less. And I don't want the love he gives his mother,, or the relationship they have. Any more than I want the love he gives his sister, his brother or his children.

Back to the narcissism in 55-70 year olds. Can anyone explain this idea?
My dad was a narcissist god bless him. He was born in the 1920s. My granny was a narcissist. She was born in the 19th century.

Generalizations just don't work though, either way.

I personally don't think much of the conflict described on MN is age related - just personality driven.

That said, my MIL did once hiss at me to respect my elders, so in her head at least there is some kind of hierarchy connected with age.

derxa - I'm not sure whether it's anything more than a retrospective correlation. If the baby boomers were a generation who (in theory) enjoyed a whole new world, and as they said "we've never had it so good"... maybe the assumption is that they continue to expect to have everything they want?

I've just Googled baby boomers and narcissism and am not far off the mark, astonished though, at the vitriol that abounds. .this article is interesting

To answer a much earlier question (charge? ), I wrote about women because they interest me. When men behave this way I am much better and either confronting it or ignoring. I don't really care what men think that much (so maybe misandrist), whereas I really do care about what drives women, why they treat each other the way the do, especially when it's within a context that expects a maternal ...drive? Instinct? to override all else. (According to society, i mean, not my expectation).

Dils expect their husbands to take their side in whatever battle they've got going on with the mil, and mil is saying "she's turning my son against me". Why is everything a battle, why are husbands expected to "pick sides"?

Why make it so extreme? It's not 'always expecting someone to take a side'. It's not 'every' battle. There's a rather invisible but huge number of people generally who rub along one way or another with the ILs.

Most MILs / DIls aren't going to go in for an I MUST WIN approach. It's when they do that there's a problem, and that's when people post.

It -is- sad fact that very controlling and unhealthy families produce people who are often rather frightened individuals who can't stand up to their mother / their partner, when the need occurs. There are real, recognisable patterns of behaviour, as there are with abusive male or female partners, that people who haven't come across it at close quarters don't see. Some advice is given by people who have seen the behaviour and recognise the red flags.

But mainly, you'll always get a helluva lot of people who don't post because they don't need to, you're just not seeing them.

Probably they have a reasonably satisfactory relationship with their ILs. Which really is all you can hope for, anything more is extra lucky.

Bertrand the "replacing parents with partners" (not in a literal like for like swap obviously ) idea is as old as the concept of family or human relationships - just watch King Lear... and it isn't anything to do with women "expecting" men to cut out their mothers - it is natural and normal that as a young dependant child your parents are the most important people in your life, and as a mature adult if you are in a relationship your partner (and then your children) are. There is nothing more to it than that in most cases (as I suspect you know full well).

One of the reasons DH and I actually bothered getting married was that we both wanted to be the other's next of kin (and yes, I know that can be done legally without marriage, but marriage is the way that makes the relationship instantly clear to all) - neither of us wanted our parents in that role any more and both of us feel (and felt all those years ago) that the other would be the person they'd want making decisions on their behalf if they lay in a coma etc. That (obviously) is what I mean by partners/ spouses "replacing" parents as the most important people in our lives.

I think a lot of people deliberately choose to get defensive and be obtuse when anyone dares discuss family relationships between the adult generations in anything but the most glowing idealised terms. It shouldn't be a taboo subject which can't be discussed honestly without people screaming Ageism! Sexism! and more than it should be a one sided pile in about how all people of a certain age are narcissists...

There is no reason not to discuss how social and economic conditions might have been broadly different at different points in living history and, whilst acknowledging that generalisations don't always apply, musing on how far we and our parents and their parents might have been affected by the changing society we grew up and live in... Screaming Ageism is so unhelpful and will not change anyone's views, it will just move them along to another thread... When people try to discuss whether women's stronger economic position or the pressures on women in certain sections of society at certain times to either work or be housewives or do everything might have affected people why not say something relevant and constructive instead of just saying that anyone who wonders whether social history means there is a discrepancy in the expectations of some women and their mother in laws is a horrible evil sexist ageist?

I don't think that it is ageist to discuss age demographics or to try to understand other people's experience but do people really feel that they are psychologically similar to most other people born in the same decade?

People have vastly different life experiences depending on the wealth of their parents. their health, the age at which they start a family, how their relationships work out etc.

It is quite ageist just to assert that all people of a particular generation tend towards narcissism without any evidence for it.
Some women in their 60s have been single parents working full time, some have been mainly SAHMs with little part time jobs, some have had fulfilling careers.
How they behave as parents of adults will also vary. Some will find it hard to let go, some will want to remain at the centre of things, some will be so preoccupied with their own lives that they show little interest and some will be supportive, interested yet independent. Its the lumping people together into a "category" and generalising that's offensive.

Rockie I think the decade/ generation you are born into is one factor which shapes people's expectations of family, and that expectations of women are influenced by prevailing expectations in society.

I don't think that it is by any means the only relevant factor of course, and of course some people are very much not "of their time".

Still the world people were born into and they expectations society had of them and that they were brought up to have were different for those born 90 years ago to 65 years ago to 40 years ago to 15 years ago. Of course that has some bearing, though equally obviously it is far from a full picture.

I do agree with that. Ideas of what family is and what people's roles in it should be change through time and are sometimes out of sync. Some posts have just taken things a bit far and got into the realm of generalisation to the point of prejudice.

Some posts have just taken things a bit far and got into the realm of generalisation to the point of prejudice

Yeap, I find the fact that the OP is calling me a narcissisist without even knowing me somewhat offensive. But I suppose if someone wrote an article about it, it must be right.