What causes so many DMs and DMILs to behave so badly?

[lborgia]

The older I get the more years I spend on MN the more baffled I get about whether something just happens to some women that they all start to display these weird behaviours.

So here are my musings - I'd be really interested if anyone has professional, academic, or anecdotal info to share.

1 - This is entirely a product of older generations being abandoned in prams to scream and scream so they got fresh air. This leaves a gaping hole in their development that leaves them feeling constantly unloved and a bottomless well neediness . (This is my favourite theory and entirely made up and without scientific basis).

2 - Narcissism - are the parents who we now perceive as having narcissistic tendencies the ones who then become unbearable mothers of the bride? And then difficult gms? Have there always been this many Narcissistic people or is it on the increase? Because of a change in parenting practices? Because of the abandonment above?

3 - Have women been raised, until relatively recently, to be pliant and put their needs after everyone else in the family and at some point the resentment builds to a point of no return? Does something happen when kids have gone. .there's room for the mother to start, I don't know, change?

4 - the menopause/importance of looks/getting old. Don't have a whole sentence for this, but something about losing relevance? Looks? Being invisible?

So I realise that this may sound ridiculous, as it is only based on my own experience, and a long interest in mothers/in laws of my friends, but it seems rampant, and makes so many people unhappy.

Ignore me if I'm being bonkers?!

Obviously each difficult mother/mother-in-law will have their own background, so their own reasons for being difficult.

Equally, all of the next generation will have their own reasons for reacting differently to them. For example, my mother was very controlling. I have pretty much escaped from her, so find the controlling ways of my MIL to be a huge imposition.

But, my mother is/was controlling because she has (recently diagnosed) Aspergers, so needs a firm set of rules to live by. MIL is from a dysfunctional family with a strict hierarchy. When I joined the family, it was very important to her to ensure that I was not higher up the pecking order than she was.

And to be fair to them, neither could help the reason they are controlling.

But I think it does go deeper than "every case is different", and is deeply rooted in ageism and sexism.

Men in our society, and therefore in most families, are more important than women. However, women of a childbearing age have an importance, as mothers. Often women discover a respect when they become mothers that they hadn't been given before. As they get older, this may diminish, particularly if they have been a SAHM, so have no perceived economic value in society. That is, they are no longer seen as important as a mother, or for any other reason.

So, they cling on to the title of "mother", as this is what has given them an importance that they don't wish to lose. For a MIL, their child's partner may be seen as usurping that position, so they may use very underhand methods to ensure that that doesn't happen.

In the case of a mother, it tends to be more a reluctance to allow their child to grow up, or to be perceived as a grown up. So, mothers may often be very critical of their grown children's choices, and wish to have a lot of input into those choices, to ensure their continued importance in their child's life.

Of course, in real life, where parents allow their children to grow up, and walk away, and make their own life, they are more often the ones who do manage to retain a happy relationship with their grown children. (Not always, though, as of course, those grown children may well be "difficult" in their own right.)

(This is my theory, and is in no way original, so if these ideas are similar to ones you may have written or seen on MN before, it's because I am in agreement with them.)

I find in laws ways unfamiliar and needy. He is one of two boys who were raised to keep mother happy!
Very traditional gender rolls in the house , I call them dinosaurs;-)
Dh is used to it & stresses that everyone make a big effort .I find it hard to put myself out to please people. Mil sulks if things don't go her way & finds me frustrating !That's the way they did things long before me. I'm the wrong fit for them.

Dh finds my family very casual and not welcoming. My parents are divorced , my mother is very self sufficient. We are a big gang(6)and if we don't come to things no one cares.I like the freedom this affords us,No expectations on us or our time.
Dh would love us to make a bit more of a fuss of him, he dies of neglect in my family.

Yet we are together & happy.

I had no difficulties with my Mil.l was very surprised to find out much later that my two sils had major problems that caused difficulties in their marriages. The difference was dh. As soon as she overstepped the mark he was on it immediately. Too much l thought at times. If she said one word about me breastfeeding or baby stuff he corrected here in a flash. It was a total no no in his books. They actually got on really well and he was very good to her. His brothers let themselves get caught in between and she went in as far as sheet could in quite alarming ways. So its up to dh l feel. My fil stayed out of it in all families.

I think that a contributor has been that historically female hierarchies have been built around the home and having children. The 'top dog' in a female hierarchy was someone with home, children etc.

this makes 2 problems for the older generation:

1. In that traditional hierarchy having to relinquish the top dog spot once the next generation come along and start producing children. Result resistance to change.

1. Modern female hierarchies are now different. Much more fluid and far less dependent on domestic attributes. DiL may not have or plan to have DCs but does not perceive herself as being lower in a hierarchy than MiL. Problem is that MiL does perceive DiL as lower in the traditional hierarchy. Result: conflict

So its up to dh l feel - that is a good point - as often said on MN - a lot of 'MIL problems' are really 'DH problems' as the DH won't stand up to his mother/put his wife first.

It works both ways - I would never allow my parents to treat my DH rudely or disrespectfully - equally I recognise that my DH clearly doesn't want to spend every holiday/weekend/social occasion with my family - however well we get on with them.

Not often you get to say "^^ this", to the entire thread

I think the it's dh's problem gets used a bit to widely. I agree entirely that dh's have to stand up to their dm's but equally, I think sometimes dmils get a rough ride because "they are not my family, they are his, he has to see them/deal with them not me". For me both my dmil and step dmil are my family too. It's up to both of us to organise things, and it's up to me to tackle issues between mil and I (with dh's support). It's not up to him to sort my issues with his family. It's up to him to support me and to show his family that dd and I are his family too, but we can't make the entire mil relationship the dh's responsibility.

There's not one answer for all MIL-DIL dyads. And sometimes things will evolve (for better or worse) within the dyad. I agree that often the DH is caught in the middle but ultimately can have a big impact.

The relationship between my MIL (well, my IL's in general) started pretty well. After the birth of DS1 things changed massively. I didn't put up with it and am now perceived to be the problem. When DS2 arrived there was some gobsmackingly terrible behaviour from BIL and SIL. SIL recognised her error, apologised and we are still close. BIL has, if anything, got worse. Again, I'm considered the "baddie" for my initial reaction. And also apparently it's my responsibility to be the bigger person and get over it. Fortunately DH can at least see my point of view, and will sometimes step in especially with his parents.

Of course there is also the MIL-son-IL dynamic. Often the subject of discussion. I guess it doesn't come up so often on MN, because most posters are women talking about their MILs.

My mother has / had terrible relationships with both her MIL and DM (hmm, I wonder what the common factor is there?). She tries hard not to repeat it with me and her DIL. And my DB is very good at managing her to reduce the impact on my (lovely) SIL. I was NC/LC with my DM for some time. I call her out now when she's being a dick.

Who would have thought that a thread about DMs and MILs would have given rise to your response at 09.35, iborgia

I think it's about two different sets of family values, traditions and life exoeriences coming together and possibly clashing.
My PIL are too over involved for my liking but then my family dynamics are a bit weird so let's just say I'm not used to it.
My PIL alsi live a distance away so ive never been able to get to know them slowly, it's akways meant overnight stays which is something I personally find difficult.
Mil is definitely very controlling though and likes her own way, she struggles as I don't allow her to be in control or boss me or my dc about.
Overstepping boundaries, put staying their welcome, has caused big issues but that is entiteky their own fault as the choose to disregard or bulldoze over what we have asked if them.
This has resulted in us having to lie to them or turned visits into uncomfortable endurance tests when they decide they'd like to stay two extra days without asking or join us on a much needed weekend away

Sometimes the MIL isn't actually Eeeeeeviiiil or have MH issues but is genuinely oblivious.

My mum's best friend once told us that she couldn't understand why her brand new DIL was a bit distant with her. After all, she'd been so good to them! She'd even decorated the house they'd just bought to help them out!

We very gently broke the news that maybe a woman buying a house for the first time might not be impressed that someone else was picking out the furniture. She was extremely startled - this had never occurred to her!

goddess . There's nothing so soothing as recognising your own experiences in others lives. Narc DM?yep. Fantastic MIL who was awful to SIL,yep. Identifying only as a mother and bewailing that loss of status?

It's official, it's not me, it's them.

Anna I think you win a prize for that one!

I think these family relationship problems have been there from the beginning of time-nothing new so don't think your theories are relevant. Years ago some older women were family matriarchs (she who must be obeyed). This goes down badly in a more individualistic society.
Also its only the problems we here about, not all MILs and DMs are ogres.
There can be difficult personalities n families in any generation-some older women are very self centered but some younger women are very touchy and take the mildest comment as criticism and interference.

Grrr hear not here. Wish there was an edit button

With my MIL- she was "odd" due to her MH issues. Sometimes said awful things - but I laughed them off as neither DH or I took them seriously, and we could always leave if it got to be too much (we never stated with them but in a hotel once the children came).
For my SIL the woman was her step-mother, and actually I blame FIL more, he shoulfn't have married her or should have stopped the meaness to his DD as a child. DH was part golden child and part just ignored them in his own little world.

BTW Dr Spock recommended putting babies outside in their prams except when "actually snowing", I've read the book. It's interesting what was thought as "permissive" in the 60s.

personally i think that

1. some people aren't nice. They end up as DiLs or MiLs or mothers or fathers or Sils. They don't suddenly become nice.

2. MiL / DiLs are always going to be a tricky relationship because two random women are drawn together for only one reason; the son/husband. They might have nothing in common otherwise. But they probably both love this man a lot, and both have stakes in him. Bound to cause friction.

that's the core of it for me. Though I do think that your Point 3 has quite a bit to do with things too. Hopefully that's getting better down the generations.

It's about power. Women have relatively little economically and politically so they project this frustration at the inherent inequality of the capitalist patriarchy onto other women they perceive as lower down the food chain. This knowledge doesn't make it right and is actually an aggravating factor as it's misogyny. I rationalize my mil's weird wicked ways thus.

This:

Another obsvervation I have is that some women (and some men) are totally over invested in their children and just can't stand back as they get older and develop their own lives - you can see this on Mumsnet and in RL when grown women admit to being 'devasted' when their children leave home for university, move away or emigrate. Instead of being pleased for their children they tend to think more about the impact it will have on them. These parents then tend to be over-involved in their adult childrens' lives - because they don't seem to have any job/hobbies/interests of their own. from Ragwort is part of it I think.

Also from my own DM (but not so much MIL who had a very different upbringing and education in a different country) a lot of women born in the Baby Boom years were given some very conflicting messages - my mother was/ is utterly convinced she is meant to Have It All (a perfect marriage to a successful husband and an ideal family with several contented, devoted, highly successful, clever children and a beautiful, enviable, well run home AND a successful professional career - she felt obliged to have these things, whether she actually wanted them or not IMO) this makes her entitled and self absorbed and needy but also really, really stressed and tense and afraid of failure and massively worried about whether people are noticing her Have It All - she definitely cares more about appearances than reality.

Since taking early retirement at 55 after martyring herself to what she believed was expected of her by working full time and also being a 1950s wife at the same time (although she did have a cleaner doing significant hours my dad had no domestic responsibility) she adopted a mantra of It My Time and I Deserve it after all I've done...

Its all very well, but going all out in her 20s, 30s and 40s didn't really benefit anyone, it just spread the stress - she didn't mean it to, she felt she had to, but the whole "I did it for you and its My Turn now" is a bit galling when the motivation was certainly far more complex and not actually about her kids personally (she's stopped saying it now but it is very clearly implicit).

OneAMeer
2) MiL / DiLs are always going to be a tricky relationship because two random women are drawn together for only one reason; the son/husband. They might have nothing in common otherwise. But they probably both love this man a lot, and both have stakes in him. Bound to cause friction.

That is also obviously a very key point - suddenly somebody you barely know and may have an utterly different outlook on life to is "family" and you have to spend time with them in rather intimate domestic circumstances often (in one another's homes somehow expected to behave as family not a guest). The forced family intimacy with another adult has to be problematic really, on both sides.

Neither my mother nor my mil behave badly. They are both kind and lovely women.

However there are nasty people about generally. Some of them will be people's mothers and MILs. I think it's just a general thing in the population. There are selfish, nasty bullies in all sectors of the population, there are people who are deliberately difficult to deal with and people who are rude, angry and manipulative.

The nastiest person I recently met is a woman with 3 grown up dc. I pity anyone who marries into her family! I'm glad I just see her occasionally as part of a club, she has no impact on my life fortunately but she is a cruel, manipulative bully who is sweetness and light to selected people and evil towards others, who clearly end up feeling like they are a piece of shit.

I think sometimes it's a generational thing. They had to respect their elders, no matter how batshit they were. But times have changed and respect now has to be earned. Some of them just don't get it.

It wasn't the Dr Spock generation that got shoved in the garden; it was Truby King. He was a guru in the 20s who advocated that children should be cuddled for a maximum of 10 minutes a day, and fed to a strict 4 hourly schedule. If they cried before 4 hours well they just had to cry. Putting them down the end of the garden meant you couldn't hear the crying. The internet said his methods were used well into the 1950s. Although I was a child of the 60s my parents were Truby King fans . I have had years of counselling as a result .

My personal observation is that for many of us our parents and inlaws fall into the baby boomer generation, and that generation is categorised by being entitled and absolutely sure that they are right, all the time. Although it'd be deeply wrong to say everyone between 55 and 75 has narc tendencies, I think narcissism is the overriding theme of that generation. This makes me really really angry. I am of the boomer generation and we certainly weren't all narcissists. I am sick of the ills of the world being laid at our feet. My DM is the most narcissistic person you could meet and was born in the 1930s.