What causes so many DMs and DMILs to behave so badly?

[lborgia]

The older I get the more years I spend on MN the more baffled I get about whether something just happens to some women that they all start to display these weird behaviours.

So here are my musings - I'd be really interested if anyone has professional, academic, or anecdotal info to share.

1 - This is entirely a product of older generations being abandoned in prams to scream and scream so they got fresh air. This leaves a gaping hole in their development that leaves them feeling constantly unloved and a bottomless well neediness . (This is my favourite theory and entirely made up and without scientific basis).

2 - Narcissism - are the parents who we now perceive as having narcissistic tendencies the ones who then become unbearable mothers of the bride? And then difficult gms? Have there always been this many Narcissistic people or is it on the increase? Because of a change in parenting practices? Because of the abandonment above?

3 - Have women been raised, until relatively recently, to be pliant and put their needs after everyone else in the family and at some point the resentment builds to a point of no return? Does something happen when kids have gone. .there's room for the mother to start, I don't know, change?

4 - the menopause/importance of looks/getting old. Don't have a whole sentence for this, but something about losing relevance? Looks? Being invisible?

So I realise that this may sound ridiculous, as it is only based on my own experience, and a long interest in mothers/in laws of my friends, but it seems rampant, and makes so many people unhappy.

Ignore me if I'm being bonkers?!

Excellent post MyFavouriteClintonisGeorge

I work in a nursing home and a surprising number of women in their 80s and 90s in the nursing home never had children because their mothers (or fathers, but mostly mothers) explicitly forbade them from marrying because they were "needed at home"

My own grandmother, who would be 104 if she were still alive, also waited to marry until her parents were dead because they had forbidden her from marrying - and my grandfather waited 20 years for her, meaning she was nearing 40 and he was mid 40s when they married, and consequently they only had one child.

Imagine that level of obedience of an adult child to their parent these days - and what kind of MILs those women made to their other children's spouses!

BUt if it is down to factor 1. How does that explain situations like mine where DM is a narc bitch, and auntie, her sister, was a saintly, kind figure?

Although it'd be deeply wrong to say everyone between 55 and 75 has narc tendencies, I think narcissism is the overriding theme of that generation

This annoyed me too - what a sweeping generalisation! I am in that age bracket myself, have worked for 30 years with teenagers and young adults and I have seen way more examples of narcissism in those generations than I even have in my own.

sorry - ever not even

"Although it'd be deeply wrong to say everyone between 55 and 75 has narc tendencies, I think narcissism is the overriding theme of that generatIon"
Jesus fucking wept- I can't believe I just read that! I find it hard to recall reading a more offensive opinion on mumsnet.

In my experience this generation doesn't bother with their grandchildren much either

Damned if we do, damned if we don't

Although it'd be deeply wrong to say everyone between 55 and 75 has narc tendencies, I think narcissism is the overriding theme of that generatIon"

Im 53 next month. Countdown to me becoming a raging Narc, then

Sisterhood.. gotta love it

Two things I think are new. Firstly, the 'our own little family' theme, where couples want to opt out of interaction with the wider family at Xmas, Easter, birthdays, Mother's Day etc.

The biggest change in my lifetime is the number of mothers who now work. I think this might have something to do with it. They don't get enough 'family time' and don't feel the need to widen the circle beyond the nuclear family or resent having to share that time with others.

Then the idea, much posted on here, that dils don't have their own individual relationship with mil. Any friction and it's 'your family, you sort it out'. They get dh to have a word with his mother instead of having the conversation themselves. It's as if they want the man, but not the family that comes with him. (Except as gps or aunties and uncles for their dcs, of course - which is when the trouble starts because they haven't made an effort to have personal relationships with the family members concerned.)

I think that's pretty insulting - the idea that a grown woman should hide behind her husband and get him to do the difficult stuff. And the concept that a dil only has a relationship with her mil through her dh creates a distance, as does all this talk of 'boundaries'.

Not so long ago, the wider family was an important safety net because there were limited state benefits. With ideological policies promoting the smaller state and cuts in what the state should provide, we could be heading back that way in the not so distant future.

Really it's like any other relationship. You get out of it what you put in.

Oh,nGod, the "Our little family" brigade. And the "Precious moments" people as well. "I am so upset- my Mil was in the room when did took her first steps- AIBU to think that this precious moment was ruined?" "Oh, you poor thing, how dare you look at your baby without asking you first. I would go NC"

Thymeout my father is in his 70s and my mother late 60s and our family unit very much had the "our little family" thing, partly as my parents didn't have much in the way of extended family and partly as my parents had been mobile for career reasons and settled hundreds of miles from either set of grandparents and partly because they made some decisions which separated us and chose an already insular community to settle in. We visited my father's parents once a year at most, and my mothers once or twice per year. Mothers days were 100% about my mother. I grew up in the 70s-80s. We see more of extended family with our kids now (in the form of DH's family) than I did growing up.

It may be a trend but I don't think its now - I think its for the last 40+ years. Although my maternal grandmother also worked full time, so even then...

Thinking about it my paternal grandmother had siblings she had totally cut herself off from by the time we were born - we never met a single member of her family, and she didn't work after marriage so it was nothing to do with that... I think isolated family units have always existed. She also refused to attend my parents wedding though and I think would have been a very difficult MIL, except that we had very little to do with her and I learnt most of what I know about her from my grandad's diaries, which were found after she died, and my father's stories.

The self-absorbed thing has always been there, but not to the extent it is now. Its so prevalent. I read threads on here and Im at the its my little family just me DH & DCs now, as if landing in family and its right!! Im here now Im the wife, I have the DCs and I control. Move over. Then all the intricacies of disliking MIL around but happy for her to babysit on tap and if she should give DC a sweet then she has to be reigned in and thoroughly put in her place. I think these are the ones who can't "let go". They build their whole lives around their little family and when the nest is flown they don't know what to do with themselves as have always taken pride in not needing/having friends, being "so very busy with my little families". Then again I suppose they go on to become pita MILs, don't they. Female competitiveness is just making life harder for women...donning the superwoman I can do it all robe I don't need or want anybody else in my little domain (unless on my terms only & when it suits me only) then crashing & burning when they feel "usurped". Such are nuisances formed

My mil is the definition of narcissistic. I know that term is banded about a LOT but honestly, a psycho analyst would have a field day with her! I generally avoid her as much as humanly possible. On the other hand my own mum is brilliant and my dh would agree with that too.

On the generational thing though, I suspect that the one trend might be that the later we (as women) marry/ co-habit and the more independent we were beforehand financially and socially and emotionally, the less willing or even able we are to accept the shit that women have been accepting from their parents and in-laws since time immemorial...

Surely it is healthy to have a relationship between two independent adults which is not based on either party depending on the other to the extent that one party accepts bullying or humiliating treatment of any kind from the other, and if that means a bit of distance and a bit less help with childcare in return for not being undermined and criticised and belittled and corrected, that is all to the good. My MIL was treated very badly indeed by her own mother throughout her teens and younger adulthood and it took a while to get our relationship on a level acceptable to both of us, but we got there after some initial rocky times when she (perhaps unconsciously) replicated the attitude her mother had to her in her treatment of me (she has no DDs), and I declined to be involved in that kind of relationship at any cost.

Some of the comments on this thread take the for prejudice and narrow-mindedness. To suggest that one particular generation has a predisposition to narcissism is bollocks. There are a range of personalities in every generation. Here goes the ageism and sexism and gross generalisation again.

My Grandmother was a nightmare of a MIL, Her DIL might well try to deal with her themselves, but really they needed their DHs' to stick up for them. One did, the other "didn't notice" which shocked me.

This shows a) it didn't start with he baby boom generation or any kind of entitlement in childhood. B) some people you just can't win over by being polite.

What a horribly ageist thread. I often read MIL bashing threads on here where it's quite obviously at least six of one and half a dozen.

I don't think it's any definite one of your suggestions entirely, just that there are batshit folk everywhere who are great at hiding it when it suits them. That's the theme.

MIL has her moments of utter madness; she came on honeymoon with us, and has been ridiculously rude at times. But so has my own Mum (the rudeness, not the honeymoon-crashing). It's not confined to MILs; everyone has the capacity for rudeness, but when it's your MIL you usually haven't spent a lifetime becoming immune to their quirks or mad ways, so they probably irk you more. And there's often that subtext of not quite feeling like she's willing to let him go.

As a Mother to two boys, I can't even imagine how hard it must be to be a MIL. You have a woman with ideas and principles and education and life experience you have simply no idea about, and your darling, lovely child commits his life to her, and you have to hope with all your heart they're going to not hurt one another or let one another down, all the time smiling as they do things totally differently to how you would/did. It must be difficult. I know for a fact that I'll find it hard.

I also know for a fact I won't be going on either of my DCs honeymoons, though.

I think there has always been a problem with dysfunctional mothers/mil/families people are just less tolerant now... remember when women had to stay in marriages with abusive men no matter what? Well I think times changing and it will be just as accepted to walk away from abusive parents!

Also for the record I get on with the in laws who are of baby boomer age and find my own parents impossible who are younger than that generation x

Well. I'm SO glad I posted this after all. I've only just woken up, the kids need to go to school, and I've had to speed read the last 2 pages but it's made me incredibly tearful.

This is, and has been, such a defining theme throughout my life and I definitely have the full house of relatives you all describe (including a SIL from hell and a B who is DM in a new form).

It must feel very insulting that all baby boomers are swept together in a mass generalisation, but I think we all realise that it's not saying it's all of them, all the time. It sounds to me as if it's a perfect storm of factors and some women have come out of it thus.

To the pp who said it's absolutely not about looks (apologies, on my phone, not wearing glasses etc), can I emphasise that again, I'm not saying all women are vain and need their looks to exist. More that if you were raised to believe that your looks were what were valued, their declined would make you feel vulnerable, and maybe invisible.

What I've taken from this is that maybe the problem is now here to stay. That many of us will become the same, and maybe this is why it's worth wondering what the formula is that produces this behaviour?

I also forgot to add at the beginning, I think sibling position and gender is also relevant (I also have a DH who is the middle of 2 girls and I think is relative sane is because he was treated differently, and allowed to disappear from home for hours at a time to spend with friends out of the way).his sisters would never have felt able to do the same. If course he's now dealing with it because of his sisters.

Right, I've two boys to control and break before school, so I'llI'll have another read later. But really, thank you.

Thank you madam for letting us know you're not playing. Super helpful. I'm not sure how I'm being ageist,given that I've said I have peer relatives who show the same signs. My point originally was that it's the impact on and of older women with these traits in family dynamics. .and where that might have come from. I'm talking about older women. How is that ageist? If I was wondering about women my own age would that be letting down the sisterhood? If I was wondering about men would that be sexist?

I'm also extremely flattered that you think I'm a journalist. Or at least, that you didn't say "I'd say she was a journalist but her spag says otherwise" .

Its like the eye of Saron has moved from siblings to us

Lots of ponies that really made me laugh

I think the OP is full of assertion, opinion and generalisation, with no evidence, just personal anecdotes. And, yes, ageist and sexist. Stereotypes anyone?

Interesting, but totally inconclusive.