Leaving an abusive relationship may be a difficult choice but it's still a choice, right?

[maggiethemagpie]

I will confess before we go any further that I have very little experience of abusive relationships. Personally - never, I am just not attracted to that kind of dynamic. I was exposed to my mum's abusive relationship with my stepfather when I was a child however. Maybe that's why I have 'never gone there' as an adult?

I have a friend who knows being with her abusive partner is the wrong thing, and says things like she hopes it will fizzle out or he'll want to spend less time with her (fat chance) but despite repeatedly trying to leave him, can't do so.

I have struggled to understand why. They are not married, or cohabiting, have no dependents, and have been together apx 18 months (they are late 30s) however she has been trying to leave him since 4 months in.

I can see that psychologically she's in some sort of trap, but surely the ultimate choice to stay or go is hers? I'm not denying that it's a difficult choice, it must be a very difficult choice but then life is full of difficult choices and these are what shape us and make us grow.

So is it a free choice to stay in these kind of relationships? Or is it a bit like addiction - where logically the right thing to do is to stop but due to the drug dependency it's not so easy?

I do have some experience with addiction so that may be an easier way to understand it. I don't subscribe to a disease model though - I still think remaining addicted to anything be it drink, substance or gambling or whatever, is still a choice although often a very difficult one.

So is remaining in an abusive relationship a choice or not?

I don't think it's harmful - I think it's empowering. I hope someone in an EA relationship reads this thread and it opens their eyes to the fact that they do have a choice to leave, no matter how difficult it may be, that choice is a possibility.

I think its more harmful to say that no one has a choice to leave and buy in to that whole victim mentality, which is why people get stuck I guess.

Which answers the question in the title of this thread quite nicely.

You can believe anything you want. It doesn't make you right.

Do you really think anything you have said is empowering?

These abusers groom their victims, and are very clever at doing so. If I had read your words whilst in the midst of my abusive marriage it would only have served to add weight to my exh s words that it was all my fault.

I think you do have a point to a degree but the problem is you have posted on MN on a relationship with no children involved?

I think being aware that you can take personal responsibility for resolving your situation (by leaving) is empowering, yes.

If you stay in an abusive relationship when you know that it's the wrong thing to do and could take action to leave, well, that is your responsibility yes.

I don't see why saying people should take responsiblity for their own lives is the same as an abuser saying its their fault that they've done whatever they've done to upset the abuser that day.

But you've answered my question. The reason people don't leave is because they don't take responsibility for doing so. So I now understand my friends situation better. Thank you.

to take responsibility for my life without blaming myself for the mistakes I had made

Just blaming other people then? Or are DV survivors not allowed to not blame themselves.

Abusers are responsible for abuse.

And yes I will say to those in EA or PA rs that they can leave and in fact their abuser will not change so if they want change they will at some point have to leave. BUT that doesn't mean that any abuse that happens in the period when they are still in the rs is their fault.

So here are some scenarios OP:

You are in a rs you realise is abusive. You co own a house. You can leave now take your 4 kids. You have nowhere to live or even to go and you are less likely to get possession of the family home having left it. In fact your ex is likely to get custody or at least 50/50 of the kids if he stays and you go. And when he does you won't be there to protect them. But hey its a choice. You could walk or right now this instant.

Do you go?

And I mean right now. Go.

Creative - why is that a problem? Lots of people post on mumsnet on non child related things.

I do understand it is much harder to leave an EA relationship with kids than not, but still not impossible as many women do this every year.

And if my friend does not have children, surely it is an easier choice.

Anyway a poster earlier said it best - she does not have the emotional resources to do so.

Op, I think you are finding it frustrating being friends with your friend right now, and that is fine.

Supporting a friend or family member who is in an abusive relationship could be seen as "enabling" if you look at it another way. Many people feel uncomfortable with enabling someone to stay in an abusive relationship and I understand what you are saying completely.

Leaving someone is hard. Splitting up a family is hard. Yes. And? Life is hard. I have let friends go in this situation. It is NOT because I am devoid of sympathy or understanding, it is because I have a limited number of shoulders to cry on.

i'm not talking about blaming themselves for the abuse - I'm talking about taking the responsibilty for improving their lives by leaving.

two very different things!!!

I was once one of the people who had no reference of abuse, never saw it in my childhood in my parents or any other adults I knew, never had it in any relationship I'd had then one day, I found myself there. I was completely baffled as to how it had happened, I was a strong woman both physically and emotionally, I'd fallen in love with a bloke, a bloke who was handsome. Charismatic and with loads of mates, he lived in a different town so I didn't know many people around, just his friends. It started so subtly and without any force or sulking. Just like the example conversation above, I'd have still gone out with my friend to the cinema 9 times out of 10 but as they lived somewhere else it became a hassle, it gradually got less and less.

The first time he threw something it was an ashtray against the wall and he was so upset with himself, I comforted him fgs, we ended up laughing about it. The first time he held me round the neck I gave him a black eye, I had to apologise as he'd come off worse. In fact I gave him several black eyes over the years, always by lashing out trying to get away from him but I would feel guilty about it. He was always full of shame and would cry and promise it would be different. There would be months of settled and great times between incidents, I wasn't a shy retiring or timid person,in fact I was the dominant person in the relationship for most of the time.

There are as many individual dynamics as there are people and no one can say how they'd react as a blanket reaction to every situation or every person. I'd never be so rude as to assume I'd know how I'd react in another persons shoes and those who do aren't helping. It's the shame of other people's reactions that keep many people there.

It finally came to an end not with a big bang of abuse and running away but in a very sedate manner, I asked him a question, he snapped an answer at me from another room and a light went out, I just resigned myself to "that's it, I can't take this anymore", when he went to work, I packed his bags and took them to his car. We've never been together since. He just went without any comebacks on the day, although a couple of weeks later he kicked my front door in, but he knew I'd never take him back at that point.

It took me a longtime to stop caring for my ex, I felt we shared a traumatic experience together, bizarrely. We both survived. He's happily married with kids now, I know as we're friends on fb, although we now live miles apart so I don't see him.

The best way to help someone is to show them how strong they are, they'll believe they can cope with a split, if you make them feel weak or like it's their fault in any way you're simply prolonging them staying.

Small legs that is exactly what my mum did! Left him in the middle of the night with two kids one of whom was me!

As in she left with us, (not left us with him). And didn't go back.

Well said small eggs.

This thread shows how easy it is to talk and know the "right" thing to do when you have never been in a situation. How easy it is to say "abuse victims should x, if i were in an abusive relationship i would X" without fully knowing the reality.

Instead of saying that if they "choose" to stay then they're a participant (!!! As if abuse is something anyone enjoys) and you should take responsibility, I find it far more useful to offer support and help them find a way out that is safe for them.

Until you've been in the situation you have no goddamn idea what kind of disgusting tricks manipulative and abusive people try to keep their victims under the thumb and after such a long period of lies, gaslighting and manipulation how easy it is to second guess your own ability to reason.

I also think there are many people who "wouldn't put up with it" until one day they find they bloody are! Not all people in abusive relationships are the same and it doesn't follow that if you're confident and strong minded and independent you won't be in an abusive relationship.

What on earth is this mentality.

Fauchelevent, how can someone possibly help someone to find a way out if that person won't take responsibility for leaving the relationship?

God knows I've tried to help my friend repeatedly, and I did help her leave on two occasions but she went back two days later.

I'm not there to hold her hand for two days every time she wants to leave him and then go back to him, it's emotionally exhausting and upsetting when she goes back.

You'll all think I'm a bitch no doubt but I can't do it any more, I can't help someone who won't help herself.

What reason does she give for going back?

Small legs - I have in no way said I'm clever. There is no need to put me down in a passive aggresive manner because I have different points of view than you. I might not have been through an abusive relationship but it doesn't stop me being able to say I wouldn't put up with it. Not everyone is the same. There isn't anyone who is wrong here except the people who subject people to abuse. The rest is just opinions and I'm entitled to mine.

In my experience one of the biggest barriers to leaving an abusive relationship is shame. Feeling ashamed of being in that position in the first place. Feeling too ashamed to ask people for help because you believe they will think you're the one at fault.

This thread is 100% victim blaming and reinforces attitudes which ensure victims of abuse remain trapped in their horrific situations.

As for the I am just not attracted to that kind of dynamic, that is beyond offensive and demonstrates that whatever you've read, whatever courses you've attended and however clever you think you are, you don't actually have a clue.

Bloody disgusting thread.

I don't think you're a bitch and we all have our limits when it comes to supporting friends and I would always say prioritise your own health first.

But. It's not as simple as, say, helping her move her stuff out ans then it's done and dusted. I really can't overstate enough the hold abusers have. I really really can't. Nobody likes being abused and she's not doing it for shits and giggles. There are reasons beyond my or your understanding and as far as you can the only thing you can do is let her know you are there for when she is ready to get out and there for when she is finally out, in those scary moments where self doubt is the strongest.

But I understand how exasperating it is. Really I do. It's frustrating and exasperating to see someone go back into a bad position, be it a relationship or a relapse and it's a sign of caring that you're frustrated. But it's a lot more complex than her just choosing,

Still, best of luck to you and especially to your friend. I hope she gets out once and for all, but it'll take a while for her to be SURE her decision is the right one

Just because you're offended doesn't mean that I am wrong.

I already explained that I was referring to psychodynamic theory when I said that hedgehogs. Other posters have agreed that you can be subconsciously attracted to negative relationship dynamics, not through choice but through your own psychology.

If it makes you feel any better I have pre therapy been attracted to many other negative dynamics mainly being ignored/abandoned, based on childhood experiences.

I've said repeatedly that blaming a 'victim' for being abused is not the same thing at all as saying someone has a personal responsibility to themselves to take whatever action it takes to improve their life. If you continue to say the two are the same, that's very disingenuous.

But like I said, admitting that you have a responsibility to yourself requires taking action, and for some that's just a step beyond what they can do. Otherwise, why get so offended by the notion?

Stillawake, we had a long chat about it one night and she admitted she doesn't want to be on her own as she doesn't like her own company.

She also misses the 'nice version' of him, which of course he switches on whenever she threatens to leave.

Although I asked her how often he was the nice version usually and she said about once a fortnight.

Maybe her threats to leave are a way to bring the nice version of him out?

I actually feel quite sorry for all those who see themselves as helpless victims... I think you are actually doing yourself a massive disservice by believing you can't do anything about your situation.

I do hope that one day something opens your eyes to see that you can.

I too have had a difficult life but it has given me empathy and strength to help others I never new I had when I was young.

I have a couple of friends in difficult situations at the moment and I try and listen and give them practical advice the best I can.