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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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Leaving an abusive relationship may be a difficult choice but it's still a choice, right?

415 replies

maggiethemagpie · 27/03/2016 21:27

I will confess before we go any further that I have very little experience of abusive relationships. Personally - never, I am just not attracted to that kind of dynamic. I was exposed to my mum's abusive relationship with my stepfather when I was a child however. Maybe that's why I have 'never gone there' as an adult?

I have a friend who knows being with her abusive partner is the wrong thing, and says things like she hopes it will fizzle out or he'll want to spend less time with her (fat chance) but despite repeatedly trying to leave him, can't do so.

I have struggled to understand why. They are not married, or cohabiting, have no dependents, and have been together apx 18 months (they are late 30s) however she has been trying to leave him since 4 months in.

I can see that psychologically she's in some sort of trap, but surely the ultimate choice to stay or go is hers? I'm not denying that it's a difficult choice, it must be a very difficult choice but then life is full of difficult choices and these are what shape us and make us grow.

So is it a free choice to stay in these kind of relationships? Or is it a bit like addiction - where logically the right thing to do is to stop but due to the drug dependency it's not so easy?

I do have some experience with addiction so that may be an easier way to understand it. I don't subscribe to a disease model though - I still think remaining addicted to anything be it drink, substance or gambling or whatever, is still a choice although often a very difficult one.

So is remaining in an abusive relationship a choice or not?

OP posts:
ItWillWash · 29/03/2016 10:07

I think it does make her feel superior, Forgiven.

I think she honestly believes she is somewhat smarter than us, healthier than us, able to make better choices than us.

If that's what a healthy women behaves like, I'll take psychologically damaged thanks. It makes for a nicer person, from what I can see.

maggiethemagpie · 29/03/2016 10:07

Yes, sand, but all the while it is letting me down. I knew her long before he did.

That's the consequence of her decision to stay with him, she will prioritise him over other people, over everything.

Why should I accept that? it's not the first time she's let me down to avoid upsetting him. up thread I mentioned that she invited me to a festival and then abandoned me all weekend because HE was jealous.

When she met him we were very good friends, I would call her my 'wife' and he got a bee in his bonnet particularly when he knew she was confiding in me when trying to leave, and on two occasions I did help her to leave.

If she's going to treat me badly because of him, then I don't see why I should put up with that.

OP posts:
ForgivenNotForgotten · 29/03/2016 10:09

You called her your wife? That's weird. ..

maggiethemagpie · 29/03/2016 10:11

I started this thread to try and understand why some women can't leave, and some posters have actually improved my understanding on that, thank you.

But when I started talking about taking personal responsibility for your life situation, some people didn't like it as it reminds them too much of what they're not capable of doing.

The fact remains that many women don't get into abusive relationships as that's not their relationship 'pattern', I don't believe it is random chance, the few women I have personally known who've had abusive relationships have ALL had issues.

I can understand that's not what a lot of women in this situation want to hear, truth hurts, but truth can often show us the way out.

Anyway it seems I've touched a few raw nerves, so I won't mention it again.

OP posts:
maggiethemagpie · 29/03/2016 10:12

The wife thing was a bit of a joke - we were just close friends. But he got funny about it!

OP posts:
Onceiwas20yearsold · 29/03/2016 10:15
Hmm
Sandinmytoes · 29/03/2016 10:15

I understand that you feel let down.
And for a complete prick
And obviously it's your choice if you drop her.

Have you asked her why she stays- do you have those type of conversations?

ForgivenNotForgotten · 29/03/2016 10:16

I'm not denying that I have "psychological issues" - I grew up in a violent and abusive home, and had ptsd as a teenager. This still doesn't make the abuse my fault.

Do you tell rape victims that they are asking for it? Your victim-blaming attitude to abuse is very similar. It can happen to anyone. Some people get out sooner than others.

I honestly don't remember ever reading more offensive rubbish on mumsnet before Sad

ItWillWash · 29/03/2016 10:17

Maybe you haven't in an abusive relationship because you are abusive?

You don't sound very supportive of your 'wife', you seem to blame her for her abusive partner.

She didn't make a decision to stay. He fucking ground her down until she felt she had no other choice. Can you honestly not see that? Making her feel worse about not attending your wedding will only add to her problems. It will give her one more thing to kick herself over and he'll be only too happy to help her do that.

They can and do abuse you after you leave. My abuse got worse. It would have been easier to go back. I didn't go back, not because I was better than your friend in any way, or stronger, or healthier. I had decent support by then. I could truly see him for he what he was and I knew I hadn't caused any of it and couldn't stop any of it. Your friend hasn't learned that yet. Hopefully one day she will, and she'll kick you both to the kerb.

maggiethemagpie · 29/03/2016 10:18

I think it's gone past that point now, SIMT. I think she is addicted to the hope, as someone wise said up thread. Last time she left him it was supposed to be for good and she even put it on facebook that she'd left, when he turned up at her flat being 'nice guy' three days later she said 'i just couldn't hurt him anymore'.
She seemed to forget that he'd been the one hurting her all the time before she left.

OP posts:
Sandinmytoes · 29/03/2016 10:19

*The fact remains that many women don't get into abusive relationships as that's not their relationship 'pattern',

Abuse does not happen this way!!

maggiethemagpie · 29/03/2016 10:22

It will wash - I just asked my partner if I was abusive to him and he said no.

Oh wait - maybe he only said that because he's afraid of the kicking he'll get later if he says yes?

As for my friend/wife - I am hacked off with her for not attending my wedding and have every right to be. I haven't had a go at her (as an abuser would) we just aren't really in contact at the mo.

That's not abusive, that's having boundaries and standards for not being treated badly. She didn't even RSVP or explain, she just went silent on me, I think that's rude.

OP posts:
maggiethemagpie · 29/03/2016 10:24

It's been lovely chatting to everyone on this thread.

I've learned some useful things both about abuse and the abusee's mind set.

I wish everyone the very best of luck for breaking free from an abusive relationship,and finding a more healthy relationship in the future.

I have a gym class to go to now, so I'll bid you all farewell.

OP posts:
StillAwakeAndItIsLate · 29/03/2016 10:25

I don't think you're coming across as a particularly nice or compassionate person, tbh.

You issued an invitation. I understand your reasons for withdrawing his invitation, but you must accept that that put her in an impossible situation.

And why on earth would you refer to your friend as your wife?

That says an awful lot about the power dynamic of your friendship. Maybe you're just not used to people saying "no" to you.

StillAwakeAndItIsLate · 29/03/2016 10:30

Has she gone now?

Blimey, what a twat

flippinada · 29/03/2016 10:34

I'm struggling for a polite way to say this, but I don't think there is one.

Perhaps OP's 'friend' simply doesn't like her.

Sandinmytoes · 29/03/2016 11:01

The idea that a potential abuser could ask "am I abusive?"

Delusional

Hahaha

maggiethemagpie · 29/03/2016 11:02

Psychology Today

Abusive relationships are fairly simple. They are driven by insecurity, fear that feeds that insecurity and an expectation of inconsistency, both real and perceived.

An abuser is morbidly insecure. S/he (yes, potentially, she) has little sense of his/her own social value and makes an effort to gain or re-gain some semblance of that value through domination and control. The fear that feeds that insecurity has two fronts: fear of not being lovable, and fear of appearing weak. The paradox here is that the abuser is, in fact, weak, which is why s/he abuses to maintain a sense of control in the first place. The perceived inconsistency on the part of the abuser by the victim is that the victim is not submitting to the abuser's domination.

The victim is also morbidly insecure and for surprisingly similar reasons. S/he also has little sense of his/her own social value, but makes an effort to establish that value by losing him/herself to the demand for submission. The fear that feeds this insecurity is also about not being lovable or loved, and there is a willingness to accept the inconsistency of the abuser's attention for the sake of being loved.

The pathological need to control on the part of the abuser and the pathological need for attention on the part of the victim is a match made in heaven. We are all just a bunch of neurotic habits that tend to find a fit with our opposite to create a psychosocial balance. Abusive relationships are one of the most extreme cases of this dynamic.

So, what do abusive relationships look like? Well, it's not always about being slapped around. Abusive relationships come in all forms along with physical abuse - social abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse (we are not referring here to molestation), financial abuse, etc. Abuse is about a dynamic of extremes, domination and submission. It is about giving and withholding, also in the extreme.

Let's look at social abuse. Have you ever had a boss who praises you one minute, and makes you wonder if you'll have a job tomorrow the next? Or let's you work yourself to the bone on a project, only to take credit or give the credit to someone else? That's an abusive dynamic. Your boss has a need to control you because s/he is threatened by you, or has a sense of insecurity about his/her own ability to motivate or lead. And you have a need for a job -- a metaphor for being loved - so you put up with it; you submit.

The abuser is also driven by a more subtle and primitive sense of fear. Because s/he is often limited in his/her social perspective, and sees things only from an egocentric perspective (i.e., has not developed a sense of ethnocentric compassion), s/he will lash out when s/he sees no other options.

The victim, on the other hand, tends to be an emotional anorexic. Starving themselves, or allowing him/herself to be starved and then gorging themselves on whatever comes his/her way only to feel guilty about it later because of a sense of not deserving what s/he has received; a state of mind that drives his/her neediness - needing, not having...having, not wanting...needing, again.

Sometimes for the victim there is also a sense of familiarity and comfort in an abusive relationship, which is why victims will often return to an abusive relationship or, leaving one, will unconsciously seek out another.

Think about growing up. Was there something that your family did that was unusual (sitting around at night, singing together or working in a community garden) that you just assumed everyone did, and you were later surprised to find that you were mistaken? It's the same thing - if you are socialized to equate love with pain or withholding, then you will seek out love in that form.

My favorite example of this is the silverware drawer. Think about where the silverware drawer was in the house in which you grew up. Now, think about where it is in your house. Allowing for architectural differences, I suspect about 90% of you will find that it's in the same place is was when you grew up. It's a memory map...why fix it, if it's not broken?

But what if you don't, or can't, recognize that it's broken? That's where we get ourselves into trouble and how we come to repeat social and relational patterns.

Abusive relationships are tricky and, just as a fish doesn't know that he's wet, we often don't see the subtle markers for abuse in a relationship because we are in it. Further, relationships fill our needs and, when our needs are being met, we don't necessarily have an imperative to take a look at how they are being met.

Here's the thing. It all comes back to us, to our responsibility and accountability. But, in this case, it comes back to responsibility to ourselves and accountability to ourselves. Instead of just riding the wave, if we choose to mindfully examine the nature of our relationships and make a determination of what is acceptable and not acceptable to us, of what feeds us, rather than bleeds us, then we are living, and loving, authentically and with mindful awareness.

OP posts:
StillAwakeAndItIsLate · 29/03/2016 11:04

Quite.

I would also suggest that her curremt controlling relationship isn't her first experience of a controlling relationship.

After all, isn't one of the main features that the other person is happy while you are doing what they want you to? It's when you go against them that they show their true colours.

BeccaMumsnet · 29/03/2016 11:17

Hi everyone - we're going to be removing this thread shortly. We don't believe it's in the spirit of the site.

flippinada · 29/03/2016 11:19

I think you're spot on StillAwake.

Something was niggling at me throughout the thread and I've just realised what it is. OP's posts remind me very much of 'Mr Sensitive' and the 'Water Torturer' from Lundy Bancroft's abuser profiles.

Have a look at this and you'll see what I mean:

www.examiner.com/article/top-ten-kinds-of-abusive-personalities

StillAwakeAndItIsLate · 29/03/2016 11:20

For someone who claims to know so much, you show surpringly little understanding.

You will also now that, as it it not a natural science, psychological theory is merely a tool for trying to understand the mind and human behaviour. It can then be applied to practice to help a person overcome certain difficulties.

You will also know that there are many theories offering to explain the same phenomena.

You will also know that people often try different therapies before they find one that works for them.

You will also know that this is why it is called psychological theory and not psychodlogical fact.

maggiethemagpie · 29/03/2016 11:21

Partner and I are really finding this very funny!!!!!!!!

He can't believe that other mumsnetters are diagnosing him.

Best laugh we've had all week.

Yes Mods please remove thread as it has turned a bit nasty (to me)

OP posts:
StillAwakeAndItIsLate · 29/03/2016 11:23

flip I have the book Wink

flippinada · 29/03/2016 11:25

I think a lot of us do Still Grin