Ok ladies....roll up...my observations on dating after learning the hard way

[MakingItReal]

Right, I have been dating for a few years now and I see the same problems come up over and over again - causing us unknown strife and heartache. I know there are exceptions to every rule - but in my experience and in every case I know the following is absolutely true:

Translating what he says

1. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship
THEN HE IS NOT LOOKING FOR A RELATIONSHIP. He's not going to fall in love with you and change his mind. He enjoys your company and all the free sex he has already decided that you are NOT going to be a long term relationship for him.

2. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship part 2
He is keeping his options open so that he can freely move on to the next person when he finds her and believe me he is still looking regardless of the fact he has told you that you are exclusive.

3. When he says "I don't want to hurt you
This means he is going to hurt you. He realises you like him and are invested and he is aware he is going to hurt you. Someone who wants to be with you would be telling you 'I'm not going to hurt you'. There is only a slight difference between the two phrases but the meaning of each is completely different.

5. You are more than just sex
This means you are just sex.
If he says it to you along with any of phrases 1 & 2 then you are DEFINITELY just sex. He is trying to convince you you mean more to him than just sex so that you stick around hoping for a relationship.

4. I might be ready for a relationship in the future
Yes, he will. But it won't be with you. If he wanted you to be his girlfriend, you already would be.

The Hard, Cold Facts:

If he wants you long term, you will know. Even shy men or men with commitment problems will not want to risk losing the woman they see as special above all others. So you will know.

If you are in a casual relationship or he is reluctant to commit and you want more the only solution is to walk away. If you stay, he will continue using you, and will value you less and less as time goes on. The only possible way for him to change his mind about you is to remove yourself from the equation.

If he has ishoos, it's not sexy, it's not a challenge, it's not a sign that you were destined to save him and win his love. It's a sign he will make a shitty partner, shitty father and shitty person to invest in. There is nothing sexier than a grown assed man with his shit together.

If he sends mixed messages, blows hot and cold, makes you feel unsure about what he wants and you find yourself posting on Mumsnet or Googling to try an figure out what he is thinking...RUN AWAY. It's not meant to be that complicated and a man that truly cares about how you feel is never going to make you wonder where you stand.

Never, ever, ever, ever underestimate the lengths a man will go to for sex. I hate to tarnish all men with that brush because they ain't all like it, but there are a scary proportion of men (younger ones especially) that will do anything to get sex off you. Espeically if it's good sex. They will jump on a plane, pay for expensive dates, stand outside your window singing Barry Manilow. And this ain't love. It's lust -and it means NOTHING except they really, really want to bang you.

Men, especially the younger and unevolved ones all have a strategy they have evolved to catch women. The good looking, charming ones might sweep you off your feet and you can see those coming - watch out for the underdog that wins you over by telling you a sob story about his alcoholic mother and how much he feels a "connection" with you. They're the worst, you never see them coming.

A good relationship makes you feel totally fullfilled. You don't wonder how they feel about you or why they haven't returned a message or why they didn't make plans for the weekend with you yet. They make you a priority and there's no grey area.

If he is up and down, hot and cold and all over you one minute leaving you confused the next then he is a prick. Without question. He's not scared, he's not busy, he's not anything- but a prick. Walk away, because he likes you...as an OPTION.

If he is still on dating sites logging on "just to check" after 12 dates or more...he is looking for someone better.

If he doesn't message or call you much one day but you notice he's been "online" quite a lot while telling you he is busy - then he is talking to someone else, a new prospect or perhaps someone else he has on the backburner.

Women and men are generally different in that we tend to bond more quickly /decide on one person -whereas they like to keep their options open. Never, ever, ever allow yourself to bond to a man before he's made it clear he's decided he wants you and only you.

If he is a bad boyfriend at the very start, he will be a thousand times worse by the time you have been with him a while and the honeymoon period is over.

If he doesn't make time to see you most weekends or ask you to meet his friends and family and be keen to meet yours or plan things to do together in advance or show in practical actions that he sees you as someone he wants to integtate into his life - they forget his words - his actions say it all.

We teach them how to treat us. So teach him that you are worth all the diamonds on earth by having boundaries in place to accept absolutely zero disrespect, selfishness or mind fuck behavior and he will either move on to the next person who is willing to accept his crap (making room for Mr Right to walk into yours) or he will look at you, realise what a strong, self respecting woman you are and realise that he had better step up his game. Either way you are a winner.

You never, ever, ever, ever, ever have anything to lose from walking away from a man who is giving you less than 100%. If he comes after you - you will be able to take back your power and he will know that he has to value and respect you to keep you. If he doesn't come after you - you will find someone better.

I wouldn't agree that your observations are universal. They aren't dating advice, they are your personal 'finding a long-term relationship advice'
A date is purely a time and a place where people meet up. This can be done for many reasons. There is a wide range of reasons why people date and a whole spectrum of relationship types.
I also think women should be allowed to enjoy sex and talking about using sex as a gateway to a relationship is very damaging to women.

One thing a guy did say on the "what are you looking for in a partner"

he said he is looking most importantly for some that appreciates he is a "decent, normal and honest guy".

Analysing that...why would the most important thing you are looking for is that a partner has to appreciate you are decent normal and honest?!

If you were decent normal and honest, it would go without saying and they would appreciate that if he was those things.

he made a point of saying they have to appreciate that as he knows he is not and partners have not appreciated him being honest and decent in the past as he is not.

In terms of online dating, I'm zero tolerance on anyone who feels the needs to spell out any of the following:

decent, normal and honest (as you say, So)
intelligent (this should be obvious from the way you write; if it's not, you're probably not)
funny (ditto)
caring (really? At all times? With everyone? Bullshit.)
affectionate (ditto)

I used to work with a female colleague who looked for what she referred to as 'bastard potential' in men. This was characterised by all the attitudes and outward signs of somebody who could be a real bastard, but who was actually a really nice guy. We worked in a City law firm where there were any number of males with bastard potential. The trick was to distinguish between the real bastards and those who were merely potential bastards. We shared an office and over a number of years of working together I came to understand her instinct for weeding them out. Where I thought I recognised bastard potential, she might well say "Ooh no - it's more actual in his case". She eventually married; her husband had jacked in his job to become self-employed and is now very successful as a free-lance, had played in a moderately successful rock band in his youth and is a reformed alcoholic. He's a very nice guy too!

In terms of online dating, I'm zero tolerance on anyone who feels the needs to spell out any of the following: decent, normal and honest (as you say, So)

This guy was even worse...he didnt spell out he was. Nay...he said the most important trait in his partner he was looking for was that they appreciate he is decent normal and honest.

that is his major relationship ask? If he behaved with integrity, he wouldnt need to ask for it on a dating site, the appreciation of his integrity would come naturally if he was an honest man.

There were so many red flags attached to him and yet I am still under him.

Why is the statement about stomach full/balls empty any more offensive than the rest of the gender stereotyping that's going on on this thread?

Because the point of what I have been saying is about protecting yourself from the narrow margin of men who cause these dating issues, and I've pointed out a billion times it's not required for all -only these problem relationships, whereas this stupid comment suggests that (a) all men are that shallow with so little depth and (b) if they are, our job is somehow to cater to their stomach and penis in order to snag them.

I wouldn't agree that your observations are universal. They aren't dating advice, they are your personal 'finding a long-term relationship advice'

You're right, it's not dating advice. It's a way of avoiding dating people who you shouldn't be dating.

A date is purely a time and a place where people meet up. This can be done for many reasons. There is a wide range of reasons why people date and a whole spectrum of relationship types

The specific type of relationship I am talking about here it outlined in the post though. The man who is saying one thing and doing another and causing mental confusion.

I also think women should be allowed to enjoy sex and talking about using sex as a gateway to a relationship is very damaging to women.

Women are free to pursue that, if they want it. For those that don't, it is very painful to be manipulated into it.

I think you're all missing that this is not supposed to govern all relationships. If you have a normal, happy, healthy relationship not a word of this would even apply, would it? Would he be telling you it wasn't just sex whilst saying he didn't want a relatonship? or avoiding taking his dating profile down? or messaging you 50 times a day for a week and then moving onto someone else only to come bac to you a week later like nothing happened? No! In a normal relationship with a man who values you, NONE of these issues would ever coe up and none of this advice would be needed. But as is evident from the amount of women who have been burned by these identical behaviors from men...please beleve us...even if it hasn't happenned to you...it does happen!!!

It's not that I don't believe bad things happen in relationships, or that some men behave badly. I just also know that plenty of women behave badly.

It seems to me that saying 'some men do X' would be better framed as 'some people do X'. And it comes down to, in this instance, not being honest and not communicating properly. Everyone has the potential to do that.

Further on this: ''talking about using sex as a gateway to a relationship is very damaging to women'' - yes, I think it is.

Everyone has the right to their own sexual choices, of course. That's a given.

That said, my personal feeling is that trading sex for the promise of something else out of a relationship places a transactional construct onto the relationship itself that makes it sexually dysfunctional from the start.

If someone doesn't want to have sex unless and until they're secure, committed and in a long-term relationship: great.

But having sex because someone thinks they might be heading towards a secure, committed and long-term relationship, when actually it's been a month and there's been no proper discussion about anyone's feelings at all is..not the same thing. And it's dishonest.

Let me just set the scene here for those who haven't experienced this, so maybe you can get a grip on what I am talking about.

You meet a man, and he is dead keen to take you out. You're not sure, but over time you observe him and he seems very nice, and also dead keen on you (and who doesn't like that) so you let him in slowly, get to know him and build a level os esteem for him.

You go on a date and have a fab time, and at this point you're feeling all good and quite excited about the next date, which is again a wonderful date. No arkward silences, lots of laughs, he's a complete gentleman and seems so interested in you and almost shy in how much he likes you. The third date comes quickly after and at this point he's sending messages every day, first thing in the morning to show he's thinking of you and it progresses to intimacy and you're now having sex by the fourth date.

The sex is great, he is so attentive and it feels so fantastic and there's long lingering kisses, giggling under the covers and he talks about how he'd love to take you to this place and that place and how happy he is.

After the sex he calls in the morning to say he loved it, and can't wait to see you again and it progresses like this for a couple of months until one day you don't hear from him for three days.

And you feel a bit like he's gone off you, so you ask him, and he says "oh no please don't read into that. I was just busy with work is all..we need to see each other this week". So you feel temporarily relieved.

But then instead of heeding how worried it made you, it now becomes the norm to not contact you for three days, and for there to be less contact, so you feel like he likes you less and you feel a bit deflated. But you want to be the "cool girlfriend", so you accept some people don't need to chat every day. but there's subtle things.

He's leaving it until the day before to ask you on dates, he's spending more time just at your flat instead of planning anything special and you notice he's been to a dinner party or a christmas party and he's not asked you as his date. You're a bit miffed by you want to allow time and space so you relax into it.

If you comment on it, he acts almost offended that you feel he is not into you. "It really upsets me that you feel I see you that way, I spend more time with you than anyone I know". And you begin to wonder if you're needy. It is certainly inferred that you are.

When he's with you he can't wait to see you and he's so affectionate and attentive and things are just as they always were but when you try and have the talk, he's not keen on taking down his dating profiles which he says shows a lack of trust between you.

And you're suspicious now, because he's always AWOL and won't take down his dating profiles, and you feel a it neglected. Not even a goodnight text? How long does it take? Three seconds? I mean -you've told him how much you miss hearing from him so if he cares about you why isn't he doing it?

Then you notice he's on whatsapp for hours every night...so how busy can he be and who is he talking to? So maybe by this time things have reached a point that you feel completely sure he isn't that into you - so you end things politely and with dignity to go and look for someone else.

You don't expect to hear from him again. After all..he's obviouly not that keen on you, is he? but you do. You start to get messages about how he misses you, and maybe he (like mine) shows up at your door with flowers to say sorry. And at this point the tells you he is scared of intimacy but he is falling in love with you. And all his behavior goes back to how it was at the beginning - when you were happy.

But the moment you take him back it starts again. And before you know it a year of your life is gone, your self esteem is on the floor and the fact is - he never saw you as a girlfriend!!!! He just wanted to keep you around!

I don't think anyone doubts the scenario or doesn't believe it happens.

You don't mention in your post whether or not you made it clear to him (either before the first date, during the second or third dates, or before you first slept with him) that you only want to have sex in the context of a long-term relationship.

And I mean explicitly: not 'I like you, this is really great' or 'we're having fun, aren't we, shall we see each other again?' but 'I am only comfortable having sex in serious relationships, are we having one?'

Because once you've had that conversation, if the answer is no you can walk away. If the answer's yes then the dating profiles come down and the time spent together/contact rules/dates for functions thing can be dealt with properly.

Most people dont deem relationships serious / long term until when?

Even at 6 months, thats nothing. A year maybe? Guys arent going to wait that long and they will lie about being serious about you to get the sex.

I have no idea what other people deem serious relationships. But if that's what you want - sex only in the context of a committed relationship - then I think you just have to wait to find someone who is prepared to commit before you sleep with them.

You can't say, 'well it might have been a serious relationship but who knows because we never really talked about it and yes I liked him and he said he liked me but we'd only known each a month when we first did the deed and then he broke my heart.'

Or rather, you can, but that's avoiding responsibility for communicating your needs/wants/boundaries properly.

I think a lot can be said, for where a woman is, in her life though.

If I was early 30's, no kids yet, wanting to settle down, then Yes, I think I would analyse and feel anxious about dating. There's a certain amount of urgency isn't there? In this sense, I think that the rules the Op adheres to are brilliant (and I would have done the same)

But, if me and my DH were to split up (love him to bits, so no plans to!), well, I just wouldn't be too bothered about meeting another long term partner.

I've got my shit together. I own my own house. I own my own business. My kids are grown up (just). I've been in love 3 times. I've been married twice.

At this point, I'm pretty sure that I'd be happy to go out to dinner now and then, with a few different men. And sleep with them if I felt like it. I don't think I'd really care if they texted me the next day. Or ever.

A guy a few years ago. absolutely smitten with each other, the way the O describes her guy.

We knew we liked each other alot. He told friends and parents about me. Met his paretns after 3 months and friends. Was being invited to family events too at this time. He bought a new house and called it an investment for our future. Talked about holidays and long term plans.

Discussed dating site we met on...took profiles down and subscriptions cancelled.

We had sex after nearly 5 months. Yes that long. We were in love first. We were crazy about each other.

if you want to know how that story ended. He dumped me for nothing out of nowhere, along time later. I was devastated as there was nothing wrong that he had said anyway.

He had the number of a woman from the site he met me on before me. She kept contacting him after the one date they had. They met up again and he had been cheating on me with her for god knows how long.

They are married now.

Even if you set your intention....it doesnt matter squat.

Yes. I don't think there's a time limit or age group for when on when people have their shit together, either (although most people in their teens and very early 20s have not, as a gross generalisation, just through lack of experience). I'm in my early 30s.

If I was early 30's, no kids yet, wanting to settle down, then Yes, I think I would analyse and feel anxious about dating. There's a certain amount of urgency isn't there?

Yes. Ive wasted my 30's either not dating and working too hard then I got fuck wit after fuck wit.

Now I am late 30's terrified, thinking no one will want me and that thing you're supposed to do of meeting someone and being with them for years that I want to do will NEVER happen now.

Fuck.

Because of property prices, I have my shit together professionally and dont have any debts really. But property is beyond me.

I just feel so fucking old and unlovelable now after what that last guy did. The one who just used me as a place filler.

But look: 'that thing you're supposed to do' - fuck that. Seriously. Fuck it so hard.

Who cares what you're supposed to do? Do what you want to do because you're sure you want to do it, not because you think (or your family or friends or society more generally think) that it's what you're supposed to do.

Op, the person in that scenario sounds totally over invested, neurotic, and totally not ready for a relationship. They sound like they have no self worth.
Relationships evolve. Eb and flow. You both can't just say 'go' and then that's it till the end of time.
I would advise the person in the scenario to reach a level of self contentment and try and live in the moment a bit. You can't force or control life.

Which includes and is not limited to: having as much sex as you can with as many different people as you, being a serial monogamist, meeting The One, never dating, being celibate, being single, being married fifteen times. Throw it all up in the air. Change your mind. Ring the changes.

Who cares what you're supposed to do? Do what you want to do because you're sure you want to do it

I do want to. I like being close to someone and I like sex ut I dont like sleeping around. For that I need a stable partner and want one.

I have done the alone thing for too long and I am sick of it. I am successful by myself. I dont need a man, I want one now.

Robinsons fwiw, you sound like you really do have your shit together.

Sothathappened I think you can most definitely still meet someone! I met DH when I was 38. Less urgency felt though, as I already had my children then (assuming you want kids, which fair enough, you may not)

Fwiw, there is one other kind of man, that I don't think has been mentioned here : He does everything right. Calls when he says he will. Takes you out when he says he will. Says and does all the rights things. Introduces you to friends and family early on. Makes you feel like you are the only one for him. Proposes. Marries you. Provides for you and the children. But then you find out 20 years on, that the whole time, he has always had an OW on the back burner. There have been 10 in total. Nothing would have ever, ever alerted you to this. (Meet my first Husband). The thing is, with this kind of guy, you can't even decide to dump the dick, because his mask is so effective, you had no idea that he was a dick. And that seems so unfair. Thankfully a friend told me.

No, I don't want to only have sex in the contxt of a long term relationship, not at all! But I don;t want to have it with someone who's already decided I'm good enough for a fuck but not as a girlfriend. If they have decided that they should not be inferring in various ways that they see it as something with legs. That's manipulative - hence I use these rules to read between the lines.

I'd have had no problem at all with having sex with him on the 4th or 5th date and nothing coming of it long term - but I very much have a problem with being strung on for 6 more months so he could continue having sex with me, whilst browing POF and Tinder looking for someone better and accusing me of being needy / overthinking whenever I questioned the signs that pointed to that.

He should have allowed me to leave the relaitonship if he knew I felt more than he did, but he was too selfish to do that. Hence the need for the rules. In future, the very first time a man is "too busy" to text me once in a day but seems to have 3 hours a night to chat on whatsapp with someone else I am going to take it as a no-holds-barred declaration that he needs to be dumped.

I wasn't in a place in my life where I was looking for marriage, not at all, but I was looking to share my body / bed / time with someone who truly valued me and was taking our situation as a possibility...a growth of something between us that may or may not pan out.

I wasted from 24-33 utterly single.

The best years of my life.

Fwiw, there is one other kind of man, that I don't think has been mentioned here : He does everything right. Calls when he says he will. Takes you out when he says he will. Says and does all the rights things. Introduces you to friends and family early on. Makes you feel like you are the only one for him. Proposes. Marries you. Provides for you and the children. But then you find out 20 years on, that the whole time, he has always had an OW on the back burner. There have been 10 in total. Nothing would have ever, ever alerted you to this. (Meet my first Husband).

Sounds a lot like mine too.

But with that, no, I could not have seen it coming.

With this, yes, yes I could.

the signs were on the wall and I did not want to see them