Ok ladies....roll up...my observations on dating after learning the hard way

[MakingItReal]

Right, I have been dating for a few years now and I see the same problems come up over and over again - causing us unknown strife and heartache. I know there are exceptions to every rule - but in my experience and in every case I know the following is absolutely true:

Translating what he says

1. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship
THEN HE IS NOT LOOKING FOR A RELATIONSHIP. He's not going to fall in love with you and change his mind. He enjoys your company and all the free sex he has already decided that you are NOT going to be a long term relationship for him.

2. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship part 2
He is keeping his options open so that he can freely move on to the next person when he finds her and believe me he is still looking regardless of the fact he has told you that you are exclusive.

3. When he says "I don't want to hurt you
This means he is going to hurt you. He realises you like him and are invested and he is aware he is going to hurt you. Someone who wants to be with you would be telling you 'I'm not going to hurt you'. There is only a slight difference between the two phrases but the meaning of each is completely different.

5. You are more than just sex
This means you are just sex.
If he says it to you along with any of phrases 1 & 2 then you are DEFINITELY just sex. He is trying to convince you you mean more to him than just sex so that you stick around hoping for a relationship.

4. I might be ready for a relationship in the future
Yes, he will. But it won't be with you. If he wanted you to be his girlfriend, you already would be.

The Hard, Cold Facts:

If he wants you long term, you will know. Even shy men or men with commitment problems will not want to risk losing the woman they see as special above all others. So you will know.

If you are in a casual relationship or he is reluctant to commit and you want more the only solution is to walk away. If you stay, he will continue using you, and will value you less and less as time goes on. The only possible way for him to change his mind about you is to remove yourself from the equation.

If he has ishoos, it's not sexy, it's not a challenge, it's not a sign that you were destined to save him and win his love. It's a sign he will make a shitty partner, shitty father and shitty person to invest in. There is nothing sexier than a grown assed man with his shit together.

If he sends mixed messages, blows hot and cold, makes you feel unsure about what he wants and you find yourself posting on Mumsnet or Googling to try an figure out what he is thinking...RUN AWAY. It's not meant to be that complicated and a man that truly cares about how you feel is never going to make you wonder where you stand.

Never, ever, ever, ever underestimate the lengths a man will go to for sex. I hate to tarnish all men with that brush because they ain't all like it, but there are a scary proportion of men (younger ones especially) that will do anything to get sex off you. Espeically if it's good sex. They will jump on a plane, pay for expensive dates, stand outside your window singing Barry Manilow. And this ain't love. It's lust -and it means NOTHING except they really, really want to bang you.

Men, especially the younger and unevolved ones all have a strategy they have evolved to catch women. The good looking, charming ones might sweep you off your feet and you can see those coming - watch out for the underdog that wins you over by telling you a sob story about his alcoholic mother and how much he feels a "connection" with you. They're the worst, you never see them coming.

A good relationship makes you feel totally fullfilled. You don't wonder how they feel about you or why they haven't returned a message or why they didn't make plans for the weekend with you yet. They make you a priority and there's no grey area.

If he is up and down, hot and cold and all over you one minute leaving you confused the next then he is a prick. Without question. He's not scared, he's not busy, he's not anything- but a prick. Walk away, because he likes you...as an OPTION.

If he is still on dating sites logging on "just to check" after 12 dates or more...he is looking for someone better.

If he doesn't message or call you much one day but you notice he's been "online" quite a lot while telling you he is busy - then he is talking to someone else, a new prospect or perhaps someone else he has on the backburner.

Women and men are generally different in that we tend to bond more quickly /decide on one person -whereas they like to keep their options open. Never, ever, ever allow yourself to bond to a man before he's made it clear he's decided he wants you and only you.

If he is a bad boyfriend at the very start, he will be a thousand times worse by the time you have been with him a while and the honeymoon period is over.

If he doesn't make time to see you most weekends or ask you to meet his friends and family and be keen to meet yours or plan things to do together in advance or show in practical actions that he sees you as someone he wants to integtate into his life - they forget his words - his actions say it all.

We teach them how to treat us. So teach him that you are worth all the diamonds on earth by having boundaries in place to accept absolutely zero disrespect, selfishness or mind fuck behavior and he will either move on to the next person who is willing to accept his crap (making room for Mr Right to walk into yours) or he will look at you, realise what a strong, self respecting woman you are and realise that he had better step up his game. Either way you are a winner.

You never, ever, ever, ever, ever have anything to lose from walking away from a man who is giving you less than 100%. If he comes after you - you will be able to take back your power and he will know that he has to value and respect you to keep you. If he doesn't come after you - you will find someone better.

Amarmai I have no idea! That's a question I'd never thought of before.

SoWhathappenned Exactly that. Where is the fun in a woman as detached as they are? They want the game (subconcious or not) of having someone love and care about them.

gatewalker I decided the point of me making these new rules was specifically not to psychoanalyse the people doing this to me (hence making it all about them yet again) and just to learn to look at the behavior and say "I don't want this. I will not tolerate this" and it's all about your own needs and not theirs that way.

That said, I'd say this. I know plenty of good, together men. Some of which have gone through bad things (like one male friend's wife left him and anotehr one's wife died very young) and they have pain and fears like the rest of us. But when they date - they are dating to bond. They are looking for Miss Right. If they are dating someone who they don't feel it for, they tell her, and they continue looking. If they feel the need for sex quite urgently, they might have a one night stnd here and there (they are only human) but what they don't ever do, nor would have any desire to do even if it were not morally repugnant - is string someone along.

I am not sure if it's deliberate, but from my experience with the three men I had like this- they all genuinely liked me a lot. All pursued me. All took me to dinner and bombarded me at the start and I knew / could feel that I was their priority at that time and all three of them lost interest once I reciproated.

This is not a man looking for a genuine bond with you or perhaps even with anybody.

That's the bottomline, for whatever reason you are just not on the same page from day one. There are probably parts of the that want you, hence the mixed messages, but other parts that don't.

And yes, they might date someone else, they might marry someone else -but these ishoos are not going to me magically resolved by her. They might treat her better or call her a "proper girlfriend", and maybe she made them work for it a bit harder? Or she is shiny and new? Or she might be prettier so fuel more of their ego? Or she might be more of a challenge?

Whatever it is...sooner or later, the honeymoon period wears off, the commitment gets deeper and a man fundamentally capable of certain behavior. Like stonewalling, lying, cheating, manipulation and all sort of things will reflec that behavior onto that poor woman.

Bcause the fact is...he did not lie to and manipulate you beuse there's somethign wrong with you. They did those things because there is somethign wrong with them. And that goes with them from relationship to relationship.

They are no prize! they just aren't.

And my own observation from the three men who did this to me is interestig in the fact that all three had a hideous relationship with their mother. One of them had a violent alcoholic mother, the other a crippling narcissist who he cried about on our second date, and the third one seemed to tink his mother hated him.

All three had also been "left" by someone in the past that they had never recovered from.

So I think something goes wrong in the way they connect to women. Almost like they are trying to get love and attention to make themselves feel good - or they are trying to punish someone else for the sins of the past.

Whatever it is they don't want just sex. If they did they'd go have a one night stand or a willing casual sex partner. This has nothing to do with casual sex or anything like that and everything to do with control and ego fuelling.

I do suspect narcissistic tendencies are present in all of them, along with the need for admiration and ego boost and a concerning absence of empathy.

The last one I was with got angry towards me for ending the relationship whilst he more or less admitted he was keeping his options open. He could not understand why I would not bend to his needs and desires and simply did not see that I had my own which were different.

The bottomline though is, that you never have to get so involved and so deply entrenched in their nightmare if you just follow those rules. They will stop the headfuck and allow you to never get to a place of it being your problem!

TinklyLittleLaugh

Of course that can happen in a casual relationship. the difference is ....did you say and do things to keep on having sex with him and lead him on? I mean, the last guy who did this to me, whenever I tried to leave would stand outside my house, send me flowers, write me letters about how he missed me and it was more than sex and how could I cheapen it etc etc.

That isn't a normal exchange of needs.

It is one person fucking with the head of another person.

Why? Because he loved banging me. Absolutely that and nothing more and it took me forever to realise it because of the mixed signals.

If at any point i had cut him off in his bullshit and told him we could be togther but only if he took down his dating profiles, spoke to me every day, met my friends and was generally my BOYFRIEND then it would have ended there and then.

But instead, I let all the love letters and flowers and serenading make me believe he hd feelings for me.

And he didn't.

Because men who have feelings for you do not send mixed messages and say they don't want a relationship

Bit confused about whether it is just about banging and nothing more, or actually nothing to do with casual sex or anything like that - or are those two different subspecies?

I try not to send mixed signals, but sometimes I think I'm in a big romance one minute, then the next minute wonder if maybe I'm just in lust, or in love with being in love. Or I wonder if I am coming on too strong and back off a bit, trying to match my level of desire to what he seems to be displaying. If not even I am sure how serious I am, I can't complain if a man doesn't lay it all out clearly and consistently, can I?

Interesting that these kind of men seem to have problems with their mothers - my ex, who had issues aplenty & blatant commitment phobia, had a terrible relationship with his mother.

Strangely enough, his sister, who is in her 50's has never had a long-term committed relationship either.

I'm with someone new now and it's early days - 3 months in, but he is incredibly consistent & reliable & there are no red flags whatsoever. Good relationship with his mother & he's had a long-term committed relationship. After the angst of my ex, it's almost disorientating to be with someone so straightforward, as there is no anxiety, his actions follow his words & he makes it very plain that he is very keen on me.

I met my ex after a painful marriage breakdown and I think I was quite vulnerable. In some ways, he was good for me at that time but as our relationship progressed, it became very apparent that he was a complex and troubled man. I'm sure our relationship had some co-depenancy elements to it.

I learnt a lot. I now know what I will and won't accept, and I am stronger, I know my boundaries. Should my new bloke overstep those, I have no qualms about walking away. I will not tolerate bullshit again & in some ways, I guess I have my ex to thank for that.

ravenmum Absolutely spot on. Found myself nodding in agreement with every point you made there

Bit confused about whether it is just about banging and nothing more, or actually nothing to do with casual sex or anything like that - or are those two different subspecies?

I honestly don't know, but I think what they want is to get what they want without any real care about what you want - which is not a good deal for you. And when someone is doing that to you - you will know easily because you're needs are not being met, and when you tell them that, they don't change it. That's when its time to leave.

I can't complain if a man doesn't lay it all out clearly and consistently, can I?

I don't expect men to know exactly what they want from me consitently. I don't even know myself. It evolves. I just know that staying with a man who is consistently inconsistent, hot and cold, telling me consistently he does not want a relationship whilst alluding to a phantom future is not being, it's being stupid. There's a massive difference between "seeing how it goes", which is normal and feeling all the time like you don't know if your boyfriend likes you that much. You're never supposed to feel like that

Fab thread. I know all this. Everything you have said I know. Sadly I only figured it out in my forties. Through bitter experience. I wish I had known at your age.
I couldn't have written as eloquently as you have done either. Hats of to you OP

I feel a little ashamed but mine didnt do any of that stuff to keep me OP.

But what he kept doing was talking of future events saying enough to prevent me walking until he had found someone he really wanted to date.

I cant believe I fell for it but I was so hooked on him.

Afraid I'll always feel like I don't know if he is for real, however nice and consistent he is, as I can never really believe anyone would think I was THAT great for long - but yes, if I wanted consistent and got nothing but the opposite I guess I'd take it as a red flag ...

Perfect response to my comment, MakingItReal. And I hear you about the emphasis on the woman's experience rather than making it about the man's.

I also agree that it tends to come down to a man's relationship with his mother.

All of the abusive and dysfunctional men I've dated had deeply problematic, if not traumatic, relationships with their mothers. The real problem comes, though, when they are simply not prepared to contemplate their role in their relationships, nor to start accepting responsibility for their healing. I've found this to be the greatest obstacle to sorting this shit out: many of these kind of men's complete inability to look inside and deal with themselves - while we women who become involved with them tend to accept responsibility way past the point where it is sane to be accountable. It's a hideous combination.

I get all of these rules (and we're a canny bunch on the dating thread, we do know all of this). I think though, with internet dating, and circular dating, it is hard to pinpoint that precise moment when a stranger becomes a man who either owes you something, or a man you don't want to waste time on. Also, it's not always that they're doing anything wrong per se, more that they're doing nothing. At the moment I'm emailing a man I met once last year. I liked his company a lot and was disappointed when he cancelled, but I didn't go back to him to rearrange. I let it go. I dated other people immediately. Now six months later he has messaged me. I would like to see him again to catch up. I might advise somebody else in these shoes not to bother with him. But I can't help it, I feel inclined to go for one more meeting. At the moment he owes me nothing other than to show up when he says he will. But after two dates, will he ''owe'' it to me to contact me within a certain time frame??? Especially if like me, he's dating other people. And we both know we are both still dating!?
Does anybody owe you anything before you have The Discussion!!?? And can you scare a man off by having The Discussion too soon. Yes, I think you can!! And I think that that is the location where most of the dating thread anxiety is parked. That point between the second, third, fourth date and the point where you figure out what if anything is going on and if it's too soon to discuss exclusivity. Internet dating has changed a lot.

I don't think anyone owes anyone anything. But we can owe it to ourselves to demand and receive respect, 314ty.

Of course! And I for one I know I deserve respect, as do most of the dating thread regulars! But what does that mean in real terms when you're waiting/hoping to see if somebody's feelings for you are reciprocated. Does it mean that you're exempt from feeling uncertainty or stress or the anxiety of unrequited affections! No, it doesn't. Knowing all of these rules and believing in your own worth is a great start but it doesn't completely eliminate the uncertainty of dating!

It doesn't, no, agreed. I think it comes down to our own lines that we draw in the sand. With internet dating, I chose a "one strike and you're out" approach. Someone's first actions are a good indicator of how they're going to behave in future.

gatewalker Yes I agree wtih everyhting you say but travelling down that road only leads me to feel like I have some sort of responsibility for someone else. And then that leads me down the road of directing myself into Mrs Healer when really - that has never, ever, ever worked out for me before. So you know..I give up on that front. I reckon a lot of people stay dysfunctional for their entire lives.

314t
For me, the moment becomes when I feel anxious. When I am wondering. When it's not fun and it's painful. Because if he truly cared about me (or had the capacity to) then he'd not want me to feel like that.

I know if I had a boyfriend who I really liked and wanted to be with and he told me that something I did made him really upset or anxious or feel rejected- I'd move mountains to stop doing whatever that was.

The trap for low self esteem people (like me) is that when someone doesnt want to move that mountain you don't go down the logical road.

Logical road - this is a person who does not care about how I feel, therefore I don't want this person anymore.

Illogical road - but he seemed to care about me at first...what have I done wrong? How can I fix it?

314t a little period of uncertainty is normal in relationships (although I have to say in all my best ones there was never a day I doubted that they liked me or worried they might be seeing other people) it just flowed naturally.

For me, with these men, I think no...I was never expecting, nor would ever expect someone to contact me every day after two dates or anything like that but once we have met 3 - 4 times, or definitely once we were having sex...I expect consistency. That is for them to generally behave as they always have, for the bond to be growing closer (not less) and for them to be saying things that match their actions.

As soon as there are period of hot and cold or mixed messages or me feeling genuinely absolutely mentally confused then I think I would sit them down and lay down my own boundaries. Honestly, I would not want to be with someone if they could not listen to that.

Looking back actually at the two really good eggs that I have loved in my life...I dont think I ever felt "stress". No...I think they bent over backwards from the first date onwards to spend time with me etc.

I know internet dating is different, and you can date for a while "non exclusively", so I am not quite sure how that works. It's definitely hard!

makingItReal i think the only time I've ever fallen in to an established relationship without going through that period of anxiety and uncertainty, it turned out that the relationships were ''irrelationships''. Something I hadn't heard of until recently, but now I've read about them, they're a safe relationship where you just don't feel that much, so the risk is all the other person's. And I know I've done that a few times, whilst simultaneously congratulating myself for being so bullet proof. I only had an epiphany fairly recently!!

It is hard, isn't it?! Even good people can still hurt and confuse each other, and not by behaving badly, just by having mismatched feelings, incompatible personalities, different needs....

I am sure there are exceptions to every rule - but without fail every single player, arsehole, commitment phobe or guy who wasn't that into me absolutely never phoned me. Not once.

The ones who were serious about me, and even the ones who turned out to be decent guys I went on to stay friends with simple picked up the phone.

I think this may be a generational/age thing though. I get the impression from younger friends that men under 35 are fundamentally of a Whatsapp/texting culture. A telephone call is seen as very old fashioned and a bit strange!

I agree if you are 35+ though that texting only is generally a bad sign.

I am sure there are exceptions to every rule - but without fail every single player, arsehole, commitment phobe or guy who wasn't that into me absolutely never phoned me. Not once.

The worst and most bitter break up I have ever had involved a guy who ended up lying and cheating. He always phoned. We would be on the phone for hours. Leave the phone connected all night sometimes so we could sleep together (unlimited free minutes).

Theory not proven.

MakingItReal I think anyone who has sex, if that sex is to be properly consensual and healthy, needs to have their needs and boundaries respected. And that honesty and trust are an important part of that.

I don't believe, though, that those things are exclusive to long-term relationships. I know they're not, in fact.

Great post OP.

I have realized it very very late. Accepted every nonsense, until the end.

But one thing, I never gave him in... Haven't slept with him. And yes he didn't bother at the beginning and tried to play hot and cold because he knew I liked him. Then I cut him off.
Opened the door for him myself because I questioned my gut instinct.
But then he started to humiliate me as he could and wished because I allowed. Nonsense after nonsense... He was literally demanding sex from me and I just stated: Marry and you will get sex. (I'm a Muslim, he is too).

Experience matured me and made me stronger... I don't buy any shit from anybody anymore... Yes or no, that's all.

One experience was enough...

Thanks for posting it here.

No Robinsons, I completely agree with you. But there is such a big diferrence between someone wanting casual sex and someone not wanting casual sex.

One of the ones I was with went after me for ages, really months and months, saying he was not ready for a full blown relationship because he'd been hurt but he wanted to be with me because I was so special, wonderful, amazing. He kept on talking me round, telling me the guys I was with weren't making me happy so why not spend a year with him? He told me it would look and feel exactly like a full blown relationship, but would only be mid-short term because he was a decade off wanting marriage.

I eventually went for that at a very weak moment when some other guy had let me down, and he came round to wipe up my tears. He'd become my confidante and I saw him as a lovely soft guy. And wow, things were fantastic. Wild sex, he seemed crazy about me, and we would talk into the night and he would tell me he'd not felt anything like this attraction with a girl before, and how he was glad his other relationships had never worked out or we would never have found each other...blah blah blah.

Then gradually he moved the goalposts. Subtly. Less availabilty. I was suddenly not invited to things with his friends. He was suddenly "online" a lot chatting to other girls it seemed but accusing me of being needy if I raised any of these changes. I was relegated to booty call by him slowly managing down my expectations and making me feel like I was over-emotional or over-demanding.

He would say "this is exactly why I can;t have a full blow relationship", and that was all fine...but would he let me go? No. If I tried to leave (and actually still even now he pursues me. He tells me he can't stay away, that he has feelings for me, that he lost his will to live after he lost me.

Of course he doesn't feeln these things.

If he did, he'd make me his girlfriends, delete his dating profiles, take me to all his friends parties and do whatever but he won me over by telling me I would get apples and delivering me oranges and then ating irritated that I wasn't happy with it.

But he waited to do this until I felt we already had feelings for each other, and he did everything he could to convince me he felt them too (he even said he was falling for me) so when he started to behave badly and send mixed signals I could not figure it out.

At the end of the day, I should have walked the very minute he told me he didn't want a full blow relationship.

Red flag!

So many red flags you can't see anything else, really. That sounds horrendous, and I'm sorry.

I don't want to give the impression that I've never had awful relationships or mismatched communication styles or anything else. I had one relationship in my early 20s that was probably borderline emotionally abusive and certainly totally dysfunctional that took ages to come to terms with.

What I've found useful in terms of my own approach to this stuff is being to some extent comfortable with uncertainty. I can't possibly know on a first date what this relationship might look like in a month's time or a year's time, so for me it comes down to whether or not I'm attracted to them (which is often conditional either on them giving the appearance of being emotionally literate or being very witty/charming/attractive) and taking things from there.

Just as I don't ask my friends to sign up for twenty plus year stints, I don't ask people I'm involved with sexually or romantically to, either. For me relationships are organic and the cardinal rule is don't be a dick to the very best of your ability.

I know it makes me sound like an idiot but he did it all right.

He built a long friendship first so I trusted him on our first date in a similar way to how I would normally trust a serious boyfriend.

He told me sob stories about his past and made me belueve that he felt I was the woman to change it all for him and if I was just patint he would make it through.

you know...it was a drip drip of manipulation.