Help please: will sending this just make things worse?

[whale16]

Horrible row with DH in the car on way home from visiting my sister for dinner. I apologised and we went to bed on OK terms, but I'm sick of the way he speaks to me in rows and the way they go from nothing to full on arguments if I say the wrong thing. So feel I need to vent. He gets pretty defensive if I say things to him so want to email him so that he can read and reflect on his own. Suspect he will be angry at first but hoping some of the points sink in. Tired of rowing in front of our two year old twins and know they deserve better. Also upset with the way he speaks to me. So thoughts on below? Thanks.

So it's 5am and I can't stop thinking about last night. This often happens when we have a row so I've decided to try to explain how I feel to you this time, rather than just stewing on things alone. And I'm not going to send this until you've left for work as I don't want you to read it when you're with me in case I spark another row. I hate rows.

So this is how I remember things from last night. And before I annoy you, this isn't about apportioning blame, far from it (as I know if I hadn't mentioned your mum it wouldn't have happened so equal blame has to sit with me). I'd just like you to understand how I feel.

We are in car. I've had a great afternoon and evening, feeling really happy. Try to explain how happy I was when you said you were on your way over to join us, even though I suspected you'd have preferred not to come and spend a few hours with my sister etc.

Get a response from you saying I owe you for it.

Immediately I feel on the defensive: I guess I felt protective over (my sister) and resentful that you see it as being that transactional. I guess in my mind I hoped it was the kind of thing partners do for each other (spend time with each other's family) and didn't want to feel indebted to you.

Instead of explaining that well, I quickly tried to think of an example of when I tried to do something similar. The first that came to mind was most recent: you suggesting that your mum comes down to look after the twins on Friday. Say that my first reaction was to say I didn't need her to, I was capable of looking after them whilst the lounge was being decorated, but that I thought about it and realised it was nice for you and your mum for her to help with them so I didn't say anything, and we did that.

Then you were furious.

I understand you being defensive over your mum but it feels as though sometimes you are over and above your loyalty to me. I wasn't attacking your mum. I wasn't trying to stop her seeing the kids. I wasn't criticising her. I was just trying to explain that, much as you probably felt today, the easiest and laziest option for me would have been to look after them myself. That's not to say I wasn't grateful to your mum for helping, of course. But I was just trying to make a point that I hadn't said anything to you along the lines of you owing me because to my mind you don't owe me. We are married and make an effort with each other's family. That's what we both do, all the time. And I just didn't want to be told I owed you for it, when the whole conversation started by me thanking you for making an effort.

Things I remember from the row that followed:

• I am not allowed to ever mention your mum again
• Your mum is much more important than my sister
• I am "disgusting"
• my own mum is "fucking pathetic"
• my parents cannot see the kids as much anymore, they see too much of the kids
• I am disgusting (it's that one that's keeping me awake).
• I am stupid and need to think before I speak
• you spoke with utter contempt about me
• I am passive aggressive and my behaviour disgusts you.

Those things are hard to hear. I'd like you to understand that the things you say stay with me. And when I make stupid little digs - which you said are unfair at the weekend so I am going to try to stop - about the old days when you used to like me, I guess it's because all the things you say are in the back of my mind and I fear that you don't. You've said the disgusting thing many times now and I worry deep down that's what you really do think of me. I'm also worried that the twins are starting to understand everything we say and that I don't want them to think that's your opinion of me, or that it's normal for people to feel like that in a relationship.

I try hard with us, I really do. And that's not saying you don't. Just trying to make you understand that I do. I sometimes bite my tongue, as I'm sure you do, for the sake of peace. I actively try to make you like me. I try not to irritate you. I try to change how I am when with your friends and family to try to be less chatty and annoying, and to make you proud. I try to make a big effort with your mum (eg trying to persuade her to stay longer on sat) even though I know she doesn't like me that much. I will make an effort again with your bro when we see him, even though I don't want to because I know how he feels about my mum (Oh and at this point I'd like you to consider how you'd feel about my sister if you knew she hated your mum, because I honestly think you would refuse to see her. I would never do that, and will make a big effort to get my relationship back on track with [brother], for you). I try - and I know I fail - not to nag. I try - and fail sometimes I know - not to moan about you watching a moderate amount of sport, or to moan about you shouting or swearing when watching it. I know that I too can have a temper and try to restrain it when you lose yours as that's when we have our worst rows, and I know that when I lose it I'm a wreck.

And despite all that trying (which to reiterate I know you do too, and more) you still think I'm disgusting. And that makes me desperately sad as I don't know what makes you feel that way, or how to make it stop.

I would really like to do some phone counselling with relate, but I think you think it would be a waste of time. And who knows, maybe it would be. But if that won't work then please please have a think about how we can change things so we don't row as much (I'm also awake worrying about poor one of the twins asking us not to shout :( ). Tell me what I can do to avoid or minimise the rows. Tell me the things that annoy you the most so I can do them less, and the things you like about me so I can do them more.

I honestly think (DS) and (DS) deserve better parents than we both were last night in the car.

And, for what it's worth, thank you again for coming yesterday. And I love you for it and the effort you make with all my family, and many many other things (DH). xxx

Sorry what? A man who shouts at his wife in front of his children is a great dad? What?

OP - what behaviour of yours did he find disgusting exactly?

So, you've argued & he's apologised & now that you've realised he was drinking, there's a reason to explain it.

How often does this happen?

Some people thrive on a volative relationship, but you don't?

If he's truly sorry then he'll check himself in future, or if he starts, he'll stop & apologise before going too far.

What thought did he show the children?

Imo, there really is no excuse for being so deliberately nasty to someone else.

Good for you.

At least he's realised he's gone too far so there's a chance it can be salvaged if he's prepared to do so. That's the question, will he do anything to change or is this just a ploy to stop you doing anything against him now.

You both need to go through the motions of trying to fix this as it may well be fixable if he actually is willing to change. I'm glad he is saying he will go to counselling, but will he go?

It's normal to disagree and even argue, but what he did in front of the kids is way beyond normal arguing. I'd never put up with that, no matter how good things were in between times. So unless things change I do think you should work towards LTB...although unlike the usual MN clammer to persuade to to do it now, I think only after you've gone through the process of seeing if it can be fixed first.

Just lurking - I was thinking of doing the same. Our joint appt isn't until 29th so I have time before then. Good idea.

And I've read the profiles of EA and honestly they didn't ring true. I've been in an EA relationship before, many moons ago, and it was so different to this.

DH has an awful temper and lashes out. He then apologises. I know he deep down he doesn't mean what he says. And apart from that he's not controlling or mean or unkind. When not losing his temper he's thoughtful and funny and reliable and great company.

whale,

The only level of abuse acceptable in a relationship is NONE.

How do you know that he does not mean what he says?. A genuine question by the way. By what actions and deeds do you know this, not just mere words?. You perhaps would like to think that he does not mean what he says, he is saying this because of drink etc. He has already been both mean and unkind towards you and has shouted at you in the car with his children also in the back seats.

Who is his temper mainly reserved for; does he act like this around his family, other people in the outside world or employees?. I would guess not. What does that tell you also about him?.

Emotional abusive men come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, it may well be that you have swapped one previously abusive relationship for yet another albeit of a different stripe but abusive all the same. The commonality here is that there is abuse.

On a much wider level what do you want to teach your children about relationships?. Have a good hard think about that along with what they are learning from the two of you currently.

I know he doesn't mean what he says because his actions contradict what he says in a temper, which is relatively rare. For example he slated my mum on Sunday. But he is lovely to her all the time. Welcomes her into our home, looks after her, was in contact with her independently when she had an operation the other day, suggests going up to visit her, gets on with her like a house on fire. She loves him.

I just spent some time on the phone to a counsellor through a service provided by my work. He was lovely and thought that relate could help so I'm feeling positive about that.

Oh and I've thought about what I want the children to learn, which is why I am going to relate with him and trying to resolve the issues as clearly we can't continue as we are...

But when we row is pretty malicious. Sometimes it's months between rows and other times only a week or two

That's not relatively rare

Not when it's weeks, no. But if we've been 6 or 8 months or so I consider that to be rare?

You're minimising his behaviour now - go back and read your op - it was distressing to read, even as a complete stranger

If you think he's so lovely, why did you write that email?

Why don't you have the confidence to say "If you ever speak to me like that again I will file for divorce" ?

I'd swap the counselling for assertiveness training and some sport or hobby that you truly enjoy that gets you away from this cock.

No, that's not rare - several years, maybe

I've been with my husband over 30 years - he has NEVER spoken to me like that, never told me I'm disgusting.

We've had rows, of course, but I can't remember the last big one, and probably no more than a handful in the whole of our relationship - every few months? Jeez

It's the contempt mainly isn't it? Relationships can withstand a lot but I think research shows that contempt is the one thing they never survive.

Because i don't want to get divorced? Otherwise that's precisely what I would say. I want him to change his behaviour and its sonething he wants to work on too.

I don't need assertiveness training - I have a pretty responsible job and earn a six figure salary, work in a male dominated industry and run a department of 35 people, mainly men. I'm not a little wallflower. I have loads of hobbies - go to the gym three times a week, am out socialising with friends a lot, and have lots of time away from DH.

What I do need is to get him to address behaviour which he has agreed to do. If that doesn't work then of course we will split. That doesn't scare me. But for the sake of the children and myself I want to at least try to sort things out.

Have you read your op again?

DH has an awful temper and lashes out. He then apologises - it's really for him to recognise this weakness, to have the desire to deal with it, and then to actually effectively manage it.

Has he considered speaking to his GP about help for anger management? Does he want to control his temper, or does he think it's ok if he just apologises later? It sounds like he has a lot of work to do, but only he can do it.

You're minimising his behaviour now - go back and read your op

This. 100%.

whale16 in your draft email to him you wrote

* I am "disgusting"
. . .
* I am disgusting (it's that one that's keeping me awake).

TWICE in the same list. That is very telling. You also said:

"You've said the disgusting thing many times now and I worry deep down that's what you really do think of me

This isn't a one off. It is emotionally abusive to repeatedly tell someone you think they are disgusting. Maybe once you could dismiss it as a nasty piece of lashing out in a temper designed to hurt. But many times?

Fine if you want to stay with him. That's your choice. But for GOD'S SAKE do it with open eyes! If only to protect the core of your self-esteem. Don't stay by choosing to pretend it's all ok, minimise his behaviour and act like it was a one off. It obviously wasn't.

Just remember: you can not change him. The only way this will stop is if he does not want to behave this way. But, if he finds that he can control you by shouting and verbally abusing you then he will carry on because he will want to.

The parts of what you said that indicate he wants to control you are:

• he got furious when you suggested a different plan than the one he had regarding his mum coming down
• he says you are disgusting (or behave disgusting) at family dos and you indicate that you have tried to be more quiet and 'less annoying'. Bascially, it sounds like he wants you to shut up when around his family.
• if you step out of line he shouts and verbally insults you
• he is trying to convince you you are a 'nag' (trying to say that you are controlling for asking him for things he doesn't want to do)
• he calls you nasty things infront of your dc
• he is trying to tell you you're stupid when clearly you aren't
• he is shouty and sweary around the house so puts you all on edge (watching sport)

I think you need to go to a counsellor alone at first to clarify his behaviour and get a good sense of what the real issue is that needs sorting eg his need for control. Don't tell him you are doing this as he'll likely go apeshit. Then, you can have couples counselling to sort through what is essentially his issue.

AtillaTheMeerkat

Women often write the "good/brilliant dad" comment as well when they can think of nothing else positive to write about their man.

Absolutely. This is something that for some reason I find really irritating.

Almost all (well 99.9% of women) write this about abusive men. I think what it actually means is "he appears to dote on his children (in a "Look-at- me! I-made-these-little-people-and-they-worship-and-depend-on-me!!! Isn't-it-great?" way), enjoys playing with them and they seem delighted to play with him".

When actually a proper definition of a good father is one who prioritises his family (his whole family) above everything and is a good role model. This means treating his wife with respect; getting properly stuck into the grunt work of running a family (picking up children, taking them to the doctors, caring for them when they are ill, helping (whether by doing it themselves or themselves organising paid help) with the cleaning, chores etc). All these things are what make a brilliant dad. Playing with the children, doting on them and making a fuss of them isn't actually the root of being a good father.

I just want to add about you not being a wallflower - not all women who have to fight this control streak in some men are weak or quiet. But your personality has no bearing on what he wants as an individual. Whether you were quiet or loud he would still feel the need to control how you behaved.

As you know from your last EA relationship, the first step to recognising the control issue is saying you have had enough and listing the times when he has hurt you and you can't work out what you did wrong.

• When not losing his temper he's thoughtful and funny and reliable and great company

It would be better if the emphasis was the opposite way round

The next time he calls you disgusting, leave.

I've read the thread and I was like you until I left a year and a bit ago. My ex h had the same kind of contempt and disgust for me & it led to him raping and physically injuring me. Contempt and superiority in a relationship does not work. Once it has been put on the table the damage it does psychologically to a relationship means it is almost impossible to fix. Do you trust him not to call you disgusting again? Honestly? If the answer is no then I'd say your marriage is dead. Sorry, I know this sounds harsh but I have walked your path and I can see from the other side what a mess your marriage is in.

Hi Whale

re your comments:-
"I want him to change his behaviour and its sonething he wants to work on too.

I don't need assertiveness training - I have a pretty responsible job and earn a six figure salary, work in a male dominated industry and run a department of 35 people, mainly men. I'm not a little wallflower. I have loads of hobbies - go to the gym three times a week, am out socialising with friends a lot, and have lots of time away from DH"

Why is this seemingly solely down to you to try and sort out?. What has he really done here with you to address the fundamental problems?. He is really paying lip service to all your suggestions.

Again how do you know he wants to work on it, after all words are cheap and also what he has tried to date has worked on you oh so very well indeed (to the extent that he had you writing such a capitulating e-mail in the first place). At the very least he is two faced when it comes to your own mother. You do not really know that he does not mean what he says.

it is hard enough changing even one aspect of your own behaviour, asking or wanting anyone else to change theirs is an exercise in futility and frustration.

Re your second paragraph some emotionally abusive men like supposedly "strong" women but with low innate self worth precisely so they can bring you down to their base level. You may not be a wallflower at all at work but at home I would argue its a different story entirely because the power/control balance is in his favour. This man sees you as a challenge, someone to break down and bring down with him to his base level.

CheersMedea has hit the nail on the head here re her last sentence:-
"Don't stay by choosing to pretend it's all ok, minimise his behaviour and act like it was a one off. It obviously wasn't".

Abuse like emotional abuse is insidious in its onset and the person can keep up appearances for some considerable time. Its very hard for women to see that they are being abused here because it is not constant and is done over a long period of time. The mask eventually slips though because he cannot keep up the nice act. You are also seeing his mask slip far more often now.

I too am a pretty assertive person. I was a social worker. I trained them too. But personally I was bullied into submission and now I'm training to be a clinical psychologist I can see I compartmentalised my life to cope with the stress I was in. My ex turned me and what I thought of myself inside out. I'm really sorry but you sound in the midst of it