Help please: will sending this just make things worse?

[whale16]

Horrible row with DH in the car on way home from visiting my sister for dinner. I apologised and we went to bed on OK terms, but I'm sick of the way he speaks to me in rows and the way they go from nothing to full on arguments if I say the wrong thing. So feel I need to vent. He gets pretty defensive if I say things to him so want to email him so that he can read and reflect on his own. Suspect he will be angry at first but hoping some of the points sink in. Tired of rowing in front of our two year old twins and know they deserve better. Also upset with the way he speaks to me. So thoughts on below? Thanks.

So it's 5am and I can't stop thinking about last night. This often happens when we have a row so I've decided to try to explain how I feel to you this time, rather than just stewing on things alone. And I'm not going to send this until you've left for work as I don't want you to read it when you're with me in case I spark another row. I hate rows.

So this is how I remember things from last night. And before I annoy you, this isn't about apportioning blame, far from it (as I know if I hadn't mentioned your mum it wouldn't have happened so equal blame has to sit with me). I'd just like you to understand how I feel.

We are in car. I've had a great afternoon and evening, feeling really happy. Try to explain how happy I was when you said you were on your way over to join us, even though I suspected you'd have preferred not to come and spend a few hours with my sister etc.

Get a response from you saying I owe you for it.

Immediately I feel on the defensive: I guess I felt protective over (my sister) and resentful that you see it as being that transactional. I guess in my mind I hoped it was the kind of thing partners do for each other (spend time with each other's family) and didn't want to feel indebted to you.

Instead of explaining that well, I quickly tried to think of an example of when I tried to do something similar. The first that came to mind was most recent: you suggesting that your mum comes down to look after the twins on Friday. Say that my first reaction was to say I didn't need her to, I was capable of looking after them whilst the lounge was being decorated, but that I thought about it and realised it was nice for you and your mum for her to help with them so I didn't say anything, and we did that.

Then you were furious.

I understand you being defensive over your mum but it feels as though sometimes you are over and above your loyalty to me. I wasn't attacking your mum. I wasn't trying to stop her seeing the kids. I wasn't criticising her. I was just trying to explain that, much as you probably felt today, the easiest and laziest option for me would have been to look after them myself. That's not to say I wasn't grateful to your mum for helping, of course. But I was just trying to make a point that I hadn't said anything to you along the lines of you owing me because to my mind you don't owe me. We are married and make an effort with each other's family. That's what we both do, all the time. And I just didn't want to be told I owed you for it, when the whole conversation started by me thanking you for making an effort.

Things I remember from the row that followed:

• I am not allowed to ever mention your mum again
• Your mum is much more important than my sister
• I am "disgusting"
• my own mum is "fucking pathetic"
• my parents cannot see the kids as much anymore, they see too much of the kids
• I am disgusting (it's that one that's keeping me awake).
• I am stupid and need to think before I speak
• you spoke with utter contempt about me
• I am passive aggressive and my behaviour disgusts you.

Those things are hard to hear. I'd like you to understand that the things you say stay with me. And when I make stupid little digs - which you said are unfair at the weekend so I am going to try to stop - about the old days when you used to like me, I guess it's because all the things you say are in the back of my mind and I fear that you don't. You've said the disgusting thing many times now and I worry deep down that's what you really do think of me. I'm also worried that the twins are starting to understand everything we say and that I don't want them to think that's your opinion of me, or that it's normal for people to feel like that in a relationship.

I try hard with us, I really do. And that's not saying you don't. Just trying to make you understand that I do. I sometimes bite my tongue, as I'm sure you do, for the sake of peace. I actively try to make you like me. I try not to irritate you. I try to change how I am when with your friends and family to try to be less chatty and annoying, and to make you proud. I try to make a big effort with your mum (eg trying to persuade her to stay longer on sat) even though I know she doesn't like me that much. I will make an effort again with your bro when we see him, even though I don't want to because I know how he feels about my mum (Oh and at this point I'd like you to consider how you'd feel about my sister if you knew she hated your mum, because I honestly think you would refuse to see her. I would never do that, and will make a big effort to get my relationship back on track with [brother], for you). I try - and I know I fail - not to nag. I try - and fail sometimes I know - not to moan about you watching a moderate amount of sport, or to moan about you shouting or swearing when watching it. I know that I too can have a temper and try to restrain it when you lose yours as that's when we have our worst rows, and I know that when I lose it I'm a wreck.

And despite all that trying (which to reiterate I know you do too, and more) you still think I'm disgusting. And that makes me desperately sad as I don't know what makes you feel that way, or how to make it stop.

I would really like to do some phone counselling with relate, but I think you think it would be a waste of time. And who knows, maybe it would be. But if that won't work then please please have a think about how we can change things so we don't row as much (I'm also awake worrying about poor one of the twins asking us not to shout :( ). Tell me what I can do to avoid or minimise the rows. Tell me the things that annoy you the most so I can do them less, and the things you like about me so I can do them more.

I honestly think (DS) and (DS) deserve better parents than we both were last night in the car.

And, for what it's worth, thank you again for coming yesterday. And I love you for it and the effort you make with all my family, and many many other things (DH). xxx

You could send it - it's well written etc..
But please do NOT send the last bit about what YOU can do to sort this out.
It needs to be something you BOTH do.
So it's what can we do together to sort this out.

I also agree with PPs that he sounds pretty horrible.

Don't send it

Avoid any risk of sending accidentally by leaving the recipient field blank in your draft

Save it and re-read it when he reels you back in with apologies

You need to find a way to be yourself again. You have probably forgotten how that feels

I wouldn't bother sending the email, it's unlikely to result in a change in his behaviour which is abusive.

Do you really want to stay with someone who treats you with such contempt and is so controlling?

Sorry OP, that email is essentially you asking him how you can shrink yourself to fit in the version of you he wants. Relationships don't work like that.

The row you has was awful and you're right to be concerned about what your children are learning from this but the email has too much leeway in it. You say you unhappy about things but have not drawn any lines. What are you expecting him to say back to you?

IMO, your email should detail the things that he said and simply state that no matter how angry he is, you do not accept this. You would not accept it from someone else, and chances are, he wouldn't talk like that to anyone else. So he either looks at his behaviour and makes positive changes (without them being driven by you) or he will need to leave. And that would be entirely his choice.

That is a very sad and apologetic email. Do you really live your life trying to get him to like you, trying to keep the peace, tiptoeing around him?

You're completely right in that if what you describe is your typical day to day life, then your children will pick up on it, and will also normalise it.

Think hard about what you want from your life. Is it this? If so, why? What do you get from him and your relationship that would keep you there for the next 10, 20 or 30 years?

I agree with everything that has been said above about him being abusive. I think the chances of this email improving anything are low. You also do need to be alive to it being produced in future.

If you want to send it, it needs to be much shorter and less "I'll do anything for you dear anything." And more "this is why I am upset. what can we do?" I would go for something like this - but it's still too long:

So it's 5am and I can't stop thinking about last night. TI'm not going to send this until you've left for work as I don't want you to read it when you're with me in case it sparks another row. I hate rows. I've decided to try to explain how I feel to you this time, rather than just stewing on things alone.

So this is how I remember things from last night. This isn't about apportioning blame, I'd just like you to understand how I feel.

We are in the car. I had a great afternoon and evening, feeling really happy. I was trying to tell you how happy I and thrilled I was when you said you were coming to join us. Your response was to say "I owe you for it."

Immediately, I felt defensive: I guess I felt protective over (my sister) and resentful that you see it as being that transactional. I had hoped it was the kind of thing partners do for each other (spend time with each other's family) and didn't want to feel indebted to you.

Instead of explaining that I felt defensive, I quickly tried to think of an example of when I tried to do something similar. The first that came to mind was most recent: you suggesting that your mum comes down to look after the twins on Friday. Then you were furious.

Things I remember from the row that followed:

• I am not allowed to ever mention your mum again
• Your mum is much more important than my sister
• I am "disgusting"
• my own mum is "fucking pathetic"
• my parents cannot see the kids as much anymore, they see too much of the kids
• I am disgusting (it's that one that's keeping me awake).
• I am stupid and need to think before I speak
• you spoke with utter contempt about me
• I am passive aggressive and my behaviour disgusts you.

Those things are hard to hear and hurt me. I'd like you to understand that the things you say stay with me. You've said the disgusting thing many times now and I worry deep down that's what you really do think of me. I'm also worried that the twins are starting to understand everything we say. They should not grow up thinking that's your opinion of me, or that it's normal for people to feel like that in a relationship.

I know I'm not perfect, no one is, but it makes me desperately sad that you think I'm disgusting. I don't know what makes you feel that way, or makes you say that or how to make it stop.

I would really like to do some phone counselling with relate, but I suspect you think it would be a waste of time. But if that won't work then please please have a think about how we can change things so we don't row as much (I'm also awake worrying about poor one of the twins asking us not to shout). Tell me what we can do to avoid or minimise the rows and tell me what you think we can do to change this.

I honestly think (DS) and (DS) deserve better parents than we both were last night in the car.

And, for what it's worth, thank you again for coming yesterday. And I love you for it and the effort you make with all my family, and many many other things (DH). xxx

It won't matter what you say or do, when you live with an abusive person who would rather put you down viciously than have a conversation with you or try to discuss what is wrong - nothing will please him or change him.
You can spend the rest of your life tying yourself into every kind of knot trying to be what he needs, or you can realise that you never will be.

It's NOT you - it's him. Sorry but you are married to an arse and IME there is nothing you can do to make things better with him.

The only hope here I think is if he agrees to some kind of counselling or therapy - which I think, from your post, is very unlikely. But maybe worth a try. He probably would have no real motivation to go unless you make it a condition of you staying (ie. a real threat to leave) but I somehow doubt you are in that place.

No don't send it and don't have counselling with him. You should never have joint counselling with an abuser.

Call Women's Aid, get counselling for yourself, do the Freedom Programme and get rid of him asap. He is vile.

It's a beautifully eloquent email and I got a bit tearful for you reading it. As others have said, you can't reason with an unreasonable person. It sounds like he resents you. It is appalling that he hasn't apologised for calling you disgusting. Keep it to read to yourself, and do the same is there are similar situations in future, grow stronger, tolerate less crap, and plan for a different and better life.

Well put Sparkle.

Thanks for all the responses, mainly a lot harsher than I expected...

I think my OP isn't entirely fair to DH. He's generally very lovely. But when we row is pretty malicious. Sometimes it's months between rows and other times only a week or two. But generally he's thoughtful and lovely and a brilliant dad, despite how it sounded.

He has apologised. The first thing he said this morning was that he loved me so I think he knew he had been out of line. I also didn't realise he'd been drinking all afternoon so I think that would have explained - but obviously not justify - his behaviour.

He kind of half smiled at my counselling idea but agreed without argument, so that's booked in.

He also said he said my behaviour was disgusting, not me, which he might well have done.

So overall I'm praying that somehow counselling might help us and help him deal with arguments without being awful to me. I want the twins to have a stable happy family and feel obliged to try and make that happen with DH. And I want it to if there's any way it can.

He also said he said my behaviour was disgusting, not me, which he might well have done.

Really? Read your post - you sounded pretty sure what he said.

The above sounds very much like gas-lighting to me.

Did you send the email? Or have a chat? Or was this an entirely spontaneous apology from him?

What Cheers said.

However, if it's as you say in your last post, then hopefully counselling can help with communication in the future.

Good luck OP

Thats what my abusive ex would do, come over all nice and reasonable then suck me back in until he would be nasty all over again in a week or two or three.
I am so relieved to be away from his verbal and emotional abuse now.
I really think you should go for the zero tolerance approach from now on, no shouting, no emotional blackmailing no name calling. And be prepared to walk away if he does it again.

I'm sorry but your update sounds like crock of shit - how can he be mostly lovely? One incident like this would be enough for me to walk away, and you say this happens often? As well as all the stuff about his mother and brother?

Good luck op, I think you may need it

He sounds like a prick. Reminds me of my ex. In the 8 years we were together he put his family above me everytime and allowed them to try undermine me.

I'd stop trying If the email doesn't work.

The counselling (if joint) is a bad idea. He will take control of the session and you will be made to feel awful again. That's how it goes. It's in the script

WannaBe's advice is spot on.

I once wrote a letter not unlike that. It was longer though, and like you I wasn't sure if got it right, so I kept it, and a few days later I rewrote it. Cut out a few parts, tried to make it really say what I wanted to.
And again.
And again
Eventually I pretty much nailed it and finally sent it,
..it said, " Goodbye."
Just took me a while to get there.

If you can't be you, who can you be ?

You are wasting your time op! Read up on the nice nasty cycle of abuse - he reeled you in. And never, ever have joint counselling with an abuser. Wow - what a number he has done on you. I hope you come to your senses soon and see how awful he is.

Good luck OP, thanks for coming back and updating us

whale,

re your comment:-
"So overall I'm praying that somehow counselling might help us and help him deal with arguments without being awful to me. I want the twins to have a stable happy family and feel obliged to try and make that happen with DH. And I want it to if there's any way it can".

I tell you now that the above will not happen. Joint counselling with him is also a non starter; he'll either not attend more than one session or (just as likely) use that to manipulate the counsellor and further blame you for the rows. He is doing a bang up job of manipulating you, why would he not be able to manipulate a counsellor?.

Abusers are not nasty all the time either; if they were no-one would want to be with them at all. He is doing the nice/nasty cycle but that is a continuous one.

He is not mostly lovely either. As for the "brilliant dad" comment as well; he is clearly not if he continues to treat you and in turn your children like this. Women often write the "good/brilliant dad" comment as well when they can think of nothing else positive to write about their man. You have done precisely this. All your words are those of an abused person.

It is not your fault he is like this; his own family of origin did that to him.

You are making the classic error that abuse is about misunderstandings or lack of communication; it is not. Its all about power and control. You know what he said to you. It does sound like you are backtracking and he is in turn also trying to gaslight you.

Please continue to post, you will get support here. You need this forum.

OP. I saw a relate counsellor by myself recently and she thought it would be useful to go by myself for a while before considering joint counselling.

Haven't been back yet so can't tell you where it will get to long term but it felt good to talk by myself and really work out how I felt without being corrected, minimised, ridiculed.

I wonder if that might be helpful for you to consider? Good luck.