Help please: will sending this just make things worse?

[whale16]

Horrible row with DH in the car on way home from visiting my sister for dinner. I apologised and we went to bed on OK terms, but I'm sick of the way he speaks to me in rows and the way they go from nothing to full on arguments if I say the wrong thing. So feel I need to vent. He gets pretty defensive if I say things to him so want to email him so that he can read and reflect on his own. Suspect he will be angry at first but hoping some of the points sink in. Tired of rowing in front of our two year old twins and know they deserve better. Also upset with the way he speaks to me. So thoughts on below? Thanks.

So it's 5am and I can't stop thinking about last night. This often happens when we have a row so I've decided to try to explain how I feel to you this time, rather than just stewing on things alone. And I'm not going to send this until you've left for work as I don't want you to read it when you're with me in case I spark another row. I hate rows.

So this is how I remember things from last night. And before I annoy you, this isn't about apportioning blame, far from it (as I know if I hadn't mentioned your mum it wouldn't have happened so equal blame has to sit with me). I'd just like you to understand how I feel.

We are in car. I've had a great afternoon and evening, feeling really happy. Try to explain how happy I was when you said you were on your way over to join us, even though I suspected you'd have preferred not to come and spend a few hours with my sister etc.

Get a response from you saying I owe you for it.

Immediately I feel on the defensive: I guess I felt protective over (my sister) and resentful that you see it as being that transactional. I guess in my mind I hoped it was the kind of thing partners do for each other (spend time with each other's family) and didn't want to feel indebted to you.

Instead of explaining that well, I quickly tried to think of an example of when I tried to do something similar. The first that came to mind was most recent: you suggesting that your mum comes down to look after the twins on Friday. Say that my first reaction was to say I didn't need her to, I was capable of looking after them whilst the lounge was being decorated, but that I thought about it and realised it was nice for you and your mum for her to help with them so I didn't say anything, and we did that.

Then you were furious.

I understand you being defensive over your mum but it feels as though sometimes you are over and above your loyalty to me. I wasn't attacking your mum. I wasn't trying to stop her seeing the kids. I wasn't criticising her. I was just trying to explain that, much as you probably felt today, the easiest and laziest option for me would have been to look after them myself. That's not to say I wasn't grateful to your mum for helping, of course. But I was just trying to make a point that I hadn't said anything to you along the lines of you owing me because to my mind you don't owe me. We are married and make an effort with each other's family. That's what we both do, all the time. And I just didn't want to be told I owed you for it, when the whole conversation started by me thanking you for making an effort.

Things I remember from the row that followed:

• I am not allowed to ever mention your mum again
  
• Your mum is much more important than my sister
  
• I am "disgusting"
  
• my own mum is "fucking pathetic"
  
• my parents cannot see the kids as much anymore, they see too much of the kids
  
• I am disgusting (it's that one that's keeping me awake).
  
• I am stupid and need to think before I speak
  
• you spoke with utter contempt about me
  
• I am passive aggressive and my behaviour disgusts you.
  
  Those things are hard to hear. I'd like you to understand that the things you say stay with me. And when I make stupid little digs - which you said are unfair at the weekend so I am going to try to stop - about the old days when you used to like me, I guess it's because all the things you say are in the back of my mind and I fear that you don't. You've said the disgusting thing many times now and I worry deep down that's what you really do think of me. I'm also worried that the twins are starting to understand everything we say and that I don't want them to think that's your opinion of me, or that it's normal for people to feel like that in a relationship.
  
  I try hard with us, I really do. And that's not saying you don't. Just trying to make you understand that I do. I sometimes bite my tongue, as I'm sure you do, for the sake of peace. I actively try to make you like me. I try not to irritate you. I try to change how I am when with your friends and family to try to be less chatty and annoying, and to make you proud. I try to make a big effort with your mum (eg trying to persuade her to stay longer on sat) even though I know she doesn't like me that much. I will make an effort again with your bro when we see him, even though I don't want to because I know how he feels about my mum (Oh and at this point I'd like you to consider how you'd feel about my sister if you knew she hated your mum, because I honestly think you would refuse to see her. I would never do that, and will make a big effort to get my relationship back on track with [brother], for you). I try - and I know I fail - not to nag. I try - and fail sometimes I know - not to moan about you watching a moderate amount of sport, or to moan about you shouting or swearing when watching it. I know that I too can have a temper and try to restrain it when you lose yours as that's when we have our worst rows, and I know that when I lose it I'm a wreck.
  
  And despite all that trying (which to reiterate I know you do too, and more) you still think I'm disgusting. And that makes me desperately sad as I don't know what makes you feel that way, or how to make it stop.
  
  I would really like to do some phone counselling with relate, but I think you think it would be a waste of time. And who knows, maybe it would be. But if that won't work then please please have a think about how we can change things so we don't row as much (I'm also awake worrying about poor one of the twins asking us not to shout :( ). Tell me what I can do to avoid or minimise the rows. Tell me the things that annoy you the most so I can do them less, and the things you like about me so I can do them more.
  
  I honestly think (DS) and (DS) deserve better parents than we both were last night in the car.
  
  And, for what it's worth, thank you again for coming yesterday. And I love you for it and the effort you make with all my family, and many many other things (DH). xxx

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

You seem to have taken full responsibility for the row.

What do you get out of this relationship now?. Think about that question carefully.

Your original e-mail needs to be totally reworded along the lines that Youarekiddingme has suggested.

You cannot make a man like your DH "happier" (actually such men are never happy) by changing your own self and I would second the recommendation made to read "Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft. DHs actions here are about power and control; he wants absolute over you and by turn his children. His actions are all deliberately planned.

I would also advise you now that such men do not change; this is who he really is.

[Italianmoma1983]

I really think councelling will help.

[Shutthatdoor]

No don't send it. You will end up with tit for tat emails going backward and forward. bitter experience

You do though need to tell him how you feel.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Counselling for you alone (note alone) is a must.

Men like whale's DH are not likely to want to attend any counselling session anyway; she has already suggested to him that he thinks it would be a waste of time (thus giving him a ready made get out clause).

No decent counsellor anyway would ever see the two of you together because of the emotional abuse he metes out. If he was seen in such a session, he would likely try and manipulate the counsellor and make it all out to be your fault.

[wannaBe]

Cabrinha I think it depends though. if the dh actually called the op those names then I agree that there are serious issues. However, given the op reacted to an "you owe me," comment by jumping immediately on the defensive then IMO it's also possible that she took those words from what her DH said during the row when actually he may not have said anything of the sort.

It's all about context. And while often heated rows are definitely an indicator of an abusive relationship, During heightened emotions it's also often possible to misconstrue something someone says and to re-write it in your head.

[DorothyBastard]

He sounds abusive. You, and your DTs, deserve better.

[MoominPie22]

Wow this is a classi example of emotional abuse. Him being the abuser but transferring and deflecting to you so that YOU are being called the abuser....and you are the victim trying to pacify and appease him by accepting blame for things ur not guilty of! Ur trying to change yourself and your own behaviour so that it doesn't annoy him. You want him to like, love and respect you. But he feels none of these things.
And to actually say that his relatives are more important than yours, insulting your family and you, he's showing his utter contempt for you, he's trying to over rule you and is being a domineering, abusive fucker!
He hates it when you assert yourself and don't comply with his demands and be the passive little wifey who's not allowed rights or opinions. He hates that u stand up for youself.
I doubt he will read all of this but you can still send something much shorter, as suggested above. Also in your msg you're blaming yourself for nothing!
Does your family and friends like him? I wouldn't wanna be in a relationship with kids with this jerk. He doesn't even like you!
I could go on but everybody's said it. Protect your kids from him, he's fucking awful and he's abusing you. You can't live your life like this.

[Gobbolino6]

I don't think you should send it. I can understand why you bringing up his mum upset him, but I understand from bitter experience how you can feel you need to say things like that in a desperate attempt to prevent a row which you know will come whatever you do. I understand feeling your partner can say what they like and if you complain, it's your fault. But if you have a problem, you can't raise it without a row.

I can't tell from your post really but I suspect he might be emotionally abusive. Check out 'the Abuser Profiles' and see if it rings alarm bells.

If he is ea, sending the email likely won't help.

[spudlike1]

He's vile.. I'm sorry for you

[Wondermoomin]

I agree with wannabe. "I owe you" is not the problem here, it's the things that followed and the recurring themes that you find coming up.

I wouldn't bother sending an email - it can be helpful to write it, but I don't think there's much benefit in sending it. Face to face communication is better imo.

[Goingtobeawesome]

If either DH or I said you owe me one regarding his family (I have none) he would know I wasn't 100% happy about whatever it was but would also just take it. There would be no row and certainly no telling me I was disgusting. It isn't something that we would say more than once in a blue moon.

I wouldn't bother with counselling. I'd be telling him you are doing him a favour and absolving him of husband duties since he finds you so awful and tell him you've arranged for him to go home to his parents and have packed a bag.

[HPsauciness]

Horrible email to read, it sounds like him calling you 'disgusting' is a regular thing. That is not ok, even in our worst rows (and boy, we can take the roof off on occasion), there is no calling each other disgusting. I worry that you are trying to change yourself to meet his standards. I suggest you set your own standards a heck of a lot higher.

He sounds awful from this email. You are basically begging a not very nice person to be nice. It won't work. Poor you. I would have, like everyone says, a good think about if you can carry on living like this all the time.

[Costacoffeeplease]

That was awful to read, to imagine you cringing and fearful, trying to twist and turn yourself into something or someone your husband might just be generous enough to find acceptable.

Stop it now.

As others have said, whatever you do will probably never be enough

Don't send the email - get angry that he treats you like this, calls you disgusting, makes you want to change your personality to appease his family - they all sound as bad as each other

And your poor twins, 2 years old and having to ask you to stop shouting - in the car of all places, where they're trapped and forced to listen to that poison

He does not sound like a nice person, and it doesn't sound like a healthy relationship - why are you putting up with it? Where is your self respect?

[Gazelda]

I'm with youarentkiddingme. Don't try to negotiate, or appeal to his better nature (if he has it). He's treading you down, your DTs will pick up on this. He needs to change or To get out.

[ChopOrNot]

Please imagine you were talking to a friend about her relationship. If she showed you this email what would you think? Would you be tempted to say LTB? I know I would. But easy to say - much more difficult to see clearly for yourself.

I think you should reconsider the whole relationship. Like PP DH and I can row - but never would either of us say stuff like this. He sounds horrible. It makes me want to hug you.

[category12]

Wow. Please consider not staying with this man. It's not normal or acceptable for him to call you disgusting. Or to feel you have to be different from the person you are to make him like you. He's emotionally abusive.

[shovetheholly]

It sounds as though you both have an unrealistic expectation that the other person will enjoy and love your family as you do. For some couples/families, things work out that way - for others, they don't. Accepting that it IS an effort and a sacrifice for the other person, that there are things they would much rather be doing, sounds like a good first step for both of you.

It is never OK to speak to someone as he speaks to you, in particular the "disgusting" comment. I am shocked that he says those things in front of your children.

[FredaMayor]

Sorry, OP, I don't see how you can turn this around. It is not normal for you to be the target for spite in a relationship. IME (and I was married to one) I've never seen a Mr Bitchy turn into Mr Nice.

[Gobbolino6]

The other thing I note is that you apologised...did he?

[tiredvommachine]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2268977-The-Abuser-Profiles

Have a read of these OP.

Don't send the email

[bakeoffcake]

You poor love

I would send it if that's the way you feel you can get the conversation started, without him shouting at you again

He is abusive you know, he needs to change or you will need to leave him, you can't let your DTs witness this abusive behaviour.

It really is that simple.

[Eliza22]

Your poor, poor love.

Send it if you feel you must.

I don't like him at all. He is abusive and controlling. Your twins DO deserve better and so do you. Sadly, you may wake up to find your twins are 25 and you're still getting the same abuse. I feel for you, I really do xx

[Eminado]

I was thinking exactly what Ocelet said

"
You sound very self aware & thoughtful. I think its a really good email - though rather long! I hope you get an equally considered response but I fear you may not. He sure is horrible in an argument!"

I hope, for you, that he is ashamed when he reads it and that he puts as much effort into responding as you did into writing.

[Towardsthesun]

I don't think it will make any difference whatsoever if you send it except he will feel defensive and it could spark another row which you don't want. Instead of pussyfooting around, tell him you are no longer putting up with the name-calling, insults, whatever and make appropriate plans eg counselling, separation, divorce.

[giantpurplepeopleeater]

Oh OP. So much of what is in that email reminds me of a relationship I was in a while back. Every little thing/ disagreement descended into an awful argument and awful things said and often ending up with him 'ending' it by telling me we were through.

Like you I spent a lot of time trying to talk it through and explain, accepting a lot of responsibility. I thought ny depression was at the crux of it till I got some counselling and the my counsellor saw it very differently.

I even sent an email very much like yours. It didn't help. And in fact, like others have said, it becane aonething he could use against me.

I can't recommend counselling enough. It allowed me to disengage and move on. And I've never been happier!