Help please: will sending this just make things worse?

[whale16]

Horrible row with DH in the car on way home from visiting my sister for dinner. I apologised and we went to bed on OK terms, but I'm sick of the way he speaks to me in rows and the way they go from nothing to full on arguments if I say the wrong thing. So feel I need to vent. He gets pretty defensive if I say things to him so want to email him so that he can read and reflect on his own. Suspect he will be angry at first but hoping some of the points sink in. Tired of rowing in front of our two year old twins and know they deserve better. Also upset with the way he speaks to me. So thoughts on below? Thanks.

So it's 5am and I can't stop thinking about last night. This often happens when we have a row so I've decided to try to explain how I feel to you this time, rather than just stewing on things alone. And I'm not going to send this until you've left for work as I don't want you to read it when you're with me in case I spark another row. I hate rows.

So this is how I remember things from last night. And before I annoy you, this isn't about apportioning blame, far from it (as I know if I hadn't mentioned your mum it wouldn't have happened so equal blame has to sit with me). I'd just like you to understand how I feel.

We are in car. I've had a great afternoon and evening, feeling really happy. Try to explain how happy I was when you said you were on your way over to join us, even though I suspected you'd have preferred not to come and spend a few hours with my sister etc.

Get a response from you saying I owe you for it.

Immediately I feel on the defensive: I guess I felt protective over (my sister) and resentful that you see it as being that transactional. I guess in my mind I hoped it was the kind of thing partners do for each other (spend time with each other's family) and didn't want to feel indebted to you.

Instead of explaining that well, I quickly tried to think of an example of when I tried to do something similar. The first that came to mind was most recent: you suggesting that your mum comes down to look after the twins on Friday. Say that my first reaction was to say I didn't need her to, I was capable of looking after them whilst the lounge was being decorated, but that I thought about it and realised it was nice for you and your mum for her to help with them so I didn't say anything, and we did that.

Then you were furious.

I understand you being defensive over your mum but it feels as though sometimes you are over and above your loyalty to me. I wasn't attacking your mum. I wasn't trying to stop her seeing the kids. I wasn't criticising her. I was just trying to explain that, much as you probably felt today, the easiest and laziest option for me would have been to look after them myself. That's not to say I wasn't grateful to your mum for helping, of course. But I was just trying to make a point that I hadn't said anything to you along the lines of you owing me because to my mind you don't owe me. We are married and make an effort with each other's family. That's what we both do, all the time. And I just didn't want to be told I owed you for it, when the whole conversation started by me thanking you for making an effort.

Things I remember from the row that followed:

• I am not allowed to ever mention your mum again
  
• Your mum is much more important than my sister
  
• I am "disgusting"
  
• my own mum is "fucking pathetic"
  
• my parents cannot see the kids as much anymore, they see too much of the kids
  
• I am disgusting (it's that one that's keeping me awake).
  
• I am stupid and need to think before I speak
  
• you spoke with utter contempt about me
  
• I am passive aggressive and my behaviour disgusts you.
  
  Those things are hard to hear. I'd like you to understand that the things you say stay with me. And when I make stupid little digs - which you said are unfair at the weekend so I am going to try to stop - about the old days when you used to like me, I guess it's because all the things you say are in the back of my mind and I fear that you don't. You've said the disgusting thing many times now and I worry deep down that's what you really do think of me. I'm also worried that the twins are starting to understand everything we say and that I don't want them to think that's your opinion of me, or that it's normal for people to feel like that in a relationship.
  
  I try hard with us, I really do. And that's not saying you don't. Just trying to make you understand that I do. I sometimes bite my tongue, as I'm sure you do, for the sake of peace. I actively try to make you like me. I try not to irritate you. I try to change how I am when with your friends and family to try to be less chatty and annoying, and to make you proud. I try to make a big effort with your mum (eg trying to persuade her to stay longer on sat) even though I know she doesn't like me that much. I will make an effort again with your bro when we see him, even though I don't want to because I know how he feels about my mum (Oh and at this point I'd like you to consider how you'd feel about my sister if you knew she hated your mum, because I honestly think you would refuse to see her. I would never do that, and will make a big effort to get my relationship back on track with [brother], for you). I try - and I know I fail - not to nag. I try - and fail sometimes I know - not to moan about you watching a moderate amount of sport, or to moan about you shouting or swearing when watching it. I know that I too can have a temper and try to restrain it when you lose yours as that's when we have our worst rows, and I know that when I lose it I'm a wreck.
  
  And despite all that trying (which to reiterate I know you do too, and more) you still think I'm disgusting. And that makes me desperately sad as I don't know what makes you feel that way, or how to make it stop.
  
  I would really like to do some phone counselling with relate, but I think you think it would be a waste of time. And who knows, maybe it would be. But if that won't work then please please have a think about how we can change things so we don't row as much (I'm also awake worrying about poor one of the twins asking us not to shout :( ). Tell me what I can do to avoid or minimise the rows. Tell me the things that annoy you the most so I can do them less, and the things you like about me so I can do them more.
  
  I honestly think (DS) and (DS) deserve better parents than we both were last night in the car.
  
  And, for what it's worth, thank you again for coming yesterday. And I love you for it and the effort you make with all my family, and many many other things (DH). xxx

[TeapotDictator]

Ugh. Whilst you were lying awake at 5am upset by all the nasty things he'd said, did he seem at all troubled by them? Or was he fast asleep, safe in the knowledge that he knew you would come crawling back with an email like that? An email in which you bend over backwards to take equal blame.

Be honest. Were you both responsible for that row in the car, in front of the children? Or is it so important to you to make this marriage work that you will claim to be responsible because you know if you said it how it was he would never cooperate?

I could have written this post four years ago. We had similar rows in front of our two year old twins in the car. I didn't want a divorce either. We separated three years ago and only now an I see quite how much minimising I did, just to avoid the outcome I was so terrified of: divorce. Nobody WANTS a divorce. It's the last thing I wanted. I'm bloody glad I'm getting one now though. It's the right thing for my darling children who will not grow up seeing me cajole my way into my husband's good books.

By the way, being assertive and senior at work has nothing to do with your behaviour within your intimate relationships.

[CheersMedea]

By the way, being assertive and senior at work has nothing to do with your behaviour within your intimate relationships.

I agree with this and what Shameandregret and Atilla said on the same topic.

I would also add that people are different with different people. So even in personal relationships (outside work) depending on the personality dynamic the same person may be downtrodden or oppressive with different people. Eg:

Woman A is a hot shot corporate demon. A real leader and aggressive at work in a male dominated world.

Her friend Woman B is quiet and shy and really admires Woman A, almost worships her. Their relationship is very much Woman A is dominant and Woman B will always go to places of Woman B's Choosing.

Her friend Woman C is very like Woman A. They have a fairly equal balanced relationship.

Her partner Man D is an insecure, emotional abuser. He undermines her at every opportunity. She is scared of him leaving her so she is utterly submissive to him.

She saw her previous bf Man E as a bit beneath her so she used to run roughshod over him. She was utterly dominant in that relationship because she didn't care.

Do you see what I mean whale? Look around you, your friends, your relationships. Different people, who press different buttons in you, will bring out different sides of your personality - especially the closer and more intimate you are.

The person, like Atticus Finch who is exactly the same on the street as he is at home, is pretty rare actually.

[summerwinterton]

I completely disagree with you - a man shows you exactly who he is in temper! He is clearly showing you what he thinks of you and yet you are convinced he doesn't mean it so that is ok. Tbh whether he means it or not are pretty irrelevant.

Why do you think it is ok for your children to hear him speak to you in such a way? What lesson are you showing them. He is a disgrace of a father to speak to you in such a way.

Yet you brush it under the carpet and justify his behaviour and seem to think if you change the way you behave he will stop.

Well he won't stop - not ever. You will just put up with it. How sad is that.

[whale16]

I disagree. I have said things in rows which I absolutely do not mean and do not show the real me. I think that's only human, and that most of us would admit to having done the same.

He has said - yesterday and again today by text - that he wants to learn to control his anger. And I owe it to the kids and our marriage to help him through that.

They thing is I will not stand for him talking to me like that. I have told him, we are going to counselling, he said he wants to change.

If he doesn't change I will leave. I will be fine financially and am very used to being alone so that too doesn't worry me. But I do feel sad at giving up on him at the first sign of trouble.

Just because he's got a temper and has said truly awful things in a rage that doesn't make him controlling or emotionally abusive. I spent an hour on the phone to a counsellor this morning, read out my OP and done replies, and cried a lot. He agreed that it sounded like an anger issue that he needed to learn to deal with and that he thought we could work through so I feel cheered by that in that I think I'm doing the right thing.

[Costacoffeeplease]

If he wants to work on it, fine, but he has to do it for himself it's not up to you to help him through it

I'd ask him to leave for 6 months, prove he's serious about changing, and then slowly, go back to dating until he has shown that he has changed and you can trust him again.

[Cabrinha]

Most of us?
Really?
I haven't shouted something in anger than I don't mean since I was a small child "I hate you..."

Anyway - what's most interesting here is that YOU have spoken to a counsellor who think he can help you both.

Why you?

Why do you say your husband is committed to changing, yet you're the one finding a counsellor?

Good luck.

[Hillfarmer]

And I owe it to the kids and our marriage to help him through that.

...so he can blame you if fails to change his behaviour.

I don't think it is up to you to help him OP. He has to do this himself, no way round that. Otherwise where is the commitment? I strongly suspect he is just saying these things to get things back to 'normal'. Watch out for him doing absolutely nothing about getting help controlling his anger.

[Hillfarmer]

If he fails to change his behaviour

[DoreenLethal]

If he wanted to learn to control his anger, then he would have booked onto anger management courses.

I have to say, people who row every week or so are usually in an abusive relationship [unless they both love and thrive on the rows]. Which you do not as shown by your OP.

What was the behaviour that he found disgusting?

[whale16]

Yes I spoke to a counsellor on my own, as advised by so many of you. The first relate session we could get was the end of feb. I have a free counselling service I can access through work which I did this morning.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

whale,

re your comments:-

"He has said - yesterday and again today by text - that he wants to learn to control his anger. And I owe it to the kids and our marriage to help him through that.

They thing is I will not stand for him talking to me like that. I have told him, we are going to counselling, he said he wants to change.

If he doesn't change I will leave. I will be fine financially and am very used to being alone so that too doesn't worry me. But I do feel sad at giving up on him at the first sign of trouble".

You do NOT owe it to him to work through any potential anger management issues. He does not need AM because he can - and does - control himself around other people.

Words are cheap OP and he has likely said similar to you before now.

His feelings of inadequacy and sense of entitlement not specific behaviours trigger his anger. Even if the class succeeds in making him less sensitive to your "nagging," he will nevertheless get irritable when you tell him you love him, as that will stir his guilt and sense of inadequacy. YOU are the one he gets the most angry with.

I would read up on the "sunken costs" fallacy in relationships; that basically causes people to keep on making poor relationship decisions. You are in serious danger of falling into that trap. You also forget here that the damage has already been done.

[Cabrinha]

I'm not sure whether he says you owe it to the kids/marriage, or that's you thinking aloud here.
If he said it, he's got a fucking cheek.

[hellsbellsmelons]

So he shouts and calls people disgusting names in general then?
i.e. at work? His family? Friends?
If not, then he does NOT have anger management issues.
If he does then fair enough. HE needs to access anger management courses.
If he doesn't get angry with anyone else other than you and the kids then it's an ABUSE issue - pure and simple.
And this is what YOU need to face up to and understand.
It's hard. It will take a while to sink in.
Bu you will get there.

[EnriqueTheRingBearingLizard]

I don't need assertiveness training - I have a pretty responsible job and earn a six figure salary, work in a male dominated industry and run a department of 35 people, mainly men. I'm not a little wallflower. I have loads of hobbies - go to the gym three times a week, am out socialising with friends a lot, and have lots of time away from DH

From your OP you sound a million miles away from that person and seem to be taking far too much responsibility for the situation saying the rows go from nothing to full on arguments 'if I say the wrong thing'

I'm also shocked at the amount of rows you find acceptable and the things said maliciously in anger. That's never happened in my world, either with me and DH or the people we mix with, not the ones in long term relationships anyway.
Please don't read that as being intentionally smug, it's simply the norm.

It's good you can access counselling and that you love your H enough to work on the marriage and the issues, but yes, I agree that he has anger and aggression problems that he really does need to work on.

How was your relationship before you married and before you had your DT?

Good Luck.

[whale16]

He does get angry with other people, yes. He hasn't seen his dad for years, fell out with his bro and mum last year and it was me that calmed him down and reach out to them (they're all as stubborn and angry as each other and they'd been as bad, if not worse, than him on that occasion).

And it was me that said I owe it to him and the marriage, not him.

Relationship was good before marriage, think the stess of DT and a recent move have taken their toll, as well as the stress of us both working full time and fitting in DT around that. I can only think of one big row in the year leading up to our marriage.

I do fear that I've been guilty of not kicking off about his language for an easy life and to avoid worse rows. But I feel a line has been crossed now and something has to change.

[wonkylampshade]

You remind me of myself seven years ago OP -something happened yesterday which made me read back through similar emails I sent to my then DP. I know you don't want to hear it, but he is being abusive, and you are a victim of domestic violence.

I couldn't accept it at the time either, but reading through my emails yesterday was frightening and heartbreaking at the same time, if only
I could have given the old me the benefit of my life experience these days! I do feel for you as your posts are resonating with me very strongly.

[wonkylampshade]

X-post - this man also had, and still has, fall outs with family and periods of sending people to coventry.

[summerwinterton]

Op - why do you think we would all tell you he is wrong? And now you defend him. We read your OP, and gave an opinion based on his awful treatment of you. We are on your side. We are supporting you against an awful man. Now you do an about face and are defending him and getting cross with us.

Why would we take against him so much if he was so wonderful? You are cross with the wrong target here.

[TempusEedjit]

"But I do feel sad at giving up on him at the first sign of trouble"

How can it be the first sign if he's repeatedly told you how disgusting you/your behaviour is? And why would you leaving be you giving up on him - surely by his behaviour he has either given up on you or he thinks you actually deserve it.

[whale16]

I'm not cross with any of you? I just don't agree.

I do find it amazing that from one original post lots of people think they know my DH better than I do myself, and better than the counsellor did earlier after an hour of talking to me.

I'm not defending his behaviour which was awful and really really upset me.

What I am trying to do is explain why I don't want to leave him and am trying to make it better.. I'm doing so because he IS a brilliant dad and I enjoy being around him and we have fun and he's thoughtful and kind. I still believe he's fucked up but there's a chance we can make it work. If things don't change, then yes you are all right and I will do. But I don't think any of us can know whether it will or won't work at this stage...

[Olddear]

What does his boss say when he says he's disgusting?

[hellsbellsmelons]

I don't want to leave him and am trying to make it better
This is still the issue.
YOU are trying.
What is your DH doing exactly?

[Costacoffeeplease]

How can you enjoy being around someone who makes you feel like your op?

I really don't understand

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

"What I am trying to do is explain why I don't want to leave him and am trying to make it better.. I'm doing so because he IS a brilliant dad and I enjoy being around him and we have fun and he's thoughtful and kind. I still believe he's fucked up but there's a chance we can make it work. If things don't change, then yes you are all right and I will do. But I don't think any of us can know whether it will or won't work at this stage..."

No-one enters a marriage with the intention of wanting to leave or divorcing.

Why is he a brilliant dad?. Think about this a lot more. Far more pertinently what do you think about him as your husband , would you describe him as a brilliant husband?. From what you have written about him clearly not. This is a man after all who has called you disgusting and your own mother pathetic. Again women tend to write such comments too when they themselves can think of nothing positive to write about their man, you have done the same here.

You also seem far more invested in trying to find a solution to this. What has he himself solely done here?.

[whale16]

He is a brilliant dad because, amongst other things: he is patient, loving, kind. He takes on half the childcare responsibilities, so, for example, he does drop off and I do pick up. Because even when his favourite team are playing football he will stop watching to play with DT. Because if they ask he will hold hands with DT until they fall asleep. Because he takes them swimming and (if he hears - he sleeps like the dead) he will go to them in the night. Because his face lights up when he sees them and he cuddles and kisses them non stop.

As for being a brilliant husband? He isn't at the moment, no. I'm not happy with how things are.

He has been though and I'm not sure where things went wrong but want to get back to where we were.

And yes I am the one that has initiated a change, and that's hard to accept and understand. But he's agreed to what I've asked and I'm hoping that's a start.