"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

With the confusion bit, it usually leads you to divert your attention from exposing their unacceptable behaviour. For instance, a conversation may go like this:

Scapegoat I'm fed up with you treating me despicably for absolutely nothing, or even minor things. You either change or I'm checking out of this relationship (the 'shape up or I'm shipping out' analogy).
Narc After all I've done for you and this is the way you treat me? I gave you money to help you out and this is the way you repay me?
Scapegoat What has that got to do with your behaviour toward me? It has nothing to do with it and you're just trying to throw me off track. Well it ain't going to happen.
Narc This conversation is over. What would you do if I told you to get out of my house???
Scapegoat Erm.....I'd just have to get out then, wouldn't I (said with a non-plussed, logical expression and a shrug)

A narcissist will normally go to the other 'Golden People' (the GP are people the narc has conditioned to believe them over others) and bad-mouth the scapegoats to the GP, and anyone else who will listen to them. .

The thing that narcs fear the most is exposure of their rotten/despicable behaviour toward anyone they perceive as their scapegoat. Narcs do not necessarily have just one......they can have many scapegoats to blame and use as their 'whipping boy'. The whipping boys (WB) are usually people the narc has turned on due to them finding out what the narc is really like. The narc may then bad-mouth the WB to anyone who will listen. They tend to get in first as a pre-emptive strike, before you tell others what the narc has done to you. This is to try and avoid their lies/real behaviour from being believed.

Again, as will reiterate many times, let your actions speak louder than their words. By doing so, you'll prove the narc wrong and expose them for what they are.

Hello
Occasional poster here
Not seen NM or enabling dad for well over a year and am super low contact (occasional abuse emails which I now ignore)
But am wondering whether it is possible to have any
Sort of relationship with my DPs before it's too late (they are in 70s
And 80s)
They fall in the not so bad category from childhood but the way they have reacted to LC has been horrendous
I don't want them seeing DCs (8 and 5) as I don't trust them not to say something underhand the second my back is turned
But has anyone successfully had an adult conversation with a mother with narc tendencies ?
I'm not expecting an apology - I'm not that naive
Just some sort of 'closure'
Am I daft to even contemplate it????

My parents always reacted to any boundaries or even minor disagreements with escalating outrage. Trying to get them to understand never worked. I could never trust them not to gossip about me with other people (eg my mother would talk in a very loud voice to the staff in her local shops, and to the staff in her business, about all the gynae problems I had). They would often tell my children how badly I'd behaved, and how unreasonable I was; they'd give them things I'd specifically asked them not to let my children have; they'd ignore my requests to do things like make them wear sun cream, or not let them eat endless icecreams as even one would induce my youngest to have a migraine.

It was a nightmare. I don't know how I stuck it out with them for so long. I went no contact with them nearly three years ago now, and our lives have been so much easier.

I don't know how your parents would react, but based on my experience, I don't think you'll manage to get any sort of respect or reasonable response from your parents if they are narcissistic.

you may do well to change your phone number. BUT before you do that, tell your mum in no uncertain terms that you will not put up with her forceful and unacceptable behaviour, that you want no more contact from her and is she does attempt to contact you, then you will phone the police, every single time, and report her for harassment.

People like narcs do not understand or 'get' tact or diplomacy. They literally need the verbal punch in the face to 'get' what you're saying.

I'm sorry, UpsidedownDog, but I think this is really bad advice.

Narcissism thrives on drama. By doing the things you've suggested, you're providing a nice big vat of drama for the dysfunctional behaviour to feed on. It will only escalate the abuse, I'm afraid.

The best way to deal with people with narcissistic tendencies is to deflate everything. They say something dreadful? Reply with, "wow," or "I don't think so," and then be silent. They gossip about you? Stop telling them things so they have nothing to gossip about. Give them the "verbal punch in the face" you've suggested and you'll wind them up even more. Refuse to engage with their shenanagins (sp?) and they'll have nothing to come back with.

I'm sure you mean well. But creating more drama will only make your dealings with a narcissist worse, not better.

All in all, my advice for those dealing with potential narcs, is Let your actions speak louder than their words to others. That way, others, who have been conditioned to see the narc as charming and good, will eventually see the narc for the person they really are. In essence, the narc will eventually shoot themselves in the foot when people start to see right through them.

As I said, the best way is to disengage. Work on yourself, not on trying to influence others. Be more compassionate with yourself, be kinder, forgive yourself for the shame they've made you feel. Once you learn how to do this you let go of the need to blame others, the need for revenge, the need to make others see what you've been putting up with, and the need to make others recognise the narcissist for what they are.

It sounds very happy-clappy-hippy, I know. But it really does work. And once you're free of the feeling that you need to prove those narcissists wrong, they no longer have any power to hurt you. Which is what I wanted, so it's really helped me. It's great.

It may be bad advice in some cases, but when you deal with people like my mum, they don't get people being diplomatic and often will create drama out of nothing. It's not about proving the narc wrong, it's about using the situation to allow the narc to prove themselves wrong, and in turn expose themselves. Basically getting the narc to do the work in revealing their true nature. By revealing their true nature/intentions, the narc then loses vast amounts of power over the people they have conditioned. This is due to the self-exposure and so the conditioned people see through the veil of lies and drama the narc has created.

The scapegoat can set boundaries but often, they are totally disregarded by the narc, so the resulting action is police warning the narc to stop harrassing the scapegoat. The verbal punch in the face is the warning from the police to the narc to back off. A narc may well see that as the scapegoat 'having it in for them', but that's the narc's twisted logic about the situation IYSWIM. I apologise if I didn't make that clear.

As I've said before, my experience of a narcissistic mother is to let her get on with lying about me to others, but treating the others in a decent, caring manner (as is natural to me). I am consistent with how I treat people, but I do treat them as they treat me. Treat me with respect and I'll return the favour. Don't treat me with respect and I'll not bother with them.

The people who keep in contact with me are the people I will want at my celebrations/other events. Those who don't keep in contact will be told bugger all. If I die before my mum, DH knows not to say anything about my death/funeral until mum and my brothers make more of an effort. I have to say that over the last 3yrs, I've been the only one making an effort to ring or visit. I've given plenty of chances and I'm not giving any more. I'm getting on with my life and will happily talk to those who have the decency to get my side of things before judging me. Those who don't get both sides are not worth bothering with TBH.

It may be bad advice in some cases, but when you deal with people like my mum, they don't get people being diplomatic and often will create drama out of nothing. It's not about proving the narc wrong, it's about using the situation to allow the narc to prove themselves wrong, and in turn expose themselves. Basically getting the narc to do the work in revealing their true nature. By revealing their true nature/intentions, the narc then loses vast amounts of power over the people they have conditioned. This is due to the self-exposure and so the conditioned people see through the veil of lies and drama the narc has created.

I have a narcissistic mother too, and I understand what you're saying. I used to agree with you. But I've spent the last three years being no-contact with my parents, and it's made me realise how faulty that thinking is.

Narcissists don't have to be manipulated or confronted to prove who they are, or to expose their true natures. They show who they are and what they're like at every interaction. The people they've conditioned are so lied-to and manipulated that they don't realise how dysfunctional the narcissists' behaviours are. Getting the narcissists to reveal themselves one more time isn't going to change anything: why should it?

Which is why I advise people to disengage, and to look after themselves. To work on protecting and strengthening their own psyches rather than trying to prove something to people who are unable to see it.

The scapegoat can set boundaries but often, they are totally disregarded by the narc, so the resulting action is police warning the narc to stop harrassing the scapegoat. The verbal punch in the face is the warning from the police to the narc to back off. A narc may well see that as the scapegoat 'having it in for them', but that's the narc's twisted logic about the situation IYSWIM. I apologise if I didn't make that clear.

I've not met a narcissist yet who would respond in the way you describe. Most deal with boundaries by pushing back, by testing those boundaries further, not by backing off. My fear is that you'll make things worse, rather than better, by behaving in this way.

If your methods work for you then that's good, and I'm glad you've found a way to make things better for yourself. But they do go against all the studies I've read, and all the advice I've been given by those qualified to speak on these things.

The best way is to disengage. Work on yourself, not on trying to influence others. Be more compassionate with yourself, be kinder, forgive yourself for the shame they've made you feel. Once you learn how to do this you let go of the need to blame others, the need for revenge, the need to make others see what you've been putting up with, and the need to make others recognise the narcissist for what they are.

Completely agree with this - nicely put on the rise - thank you.

I've started the journey and things are definitely getting better - I know I still have work to do because I still hold on to the last two 'needs'.

Have any more of you been forced to give up relationships/ friendships by an abusive parent? Is it akin to emotional incest?

Oh, yes. This was my mother to a T. She torpedoed every friendship I ever had as a kid and gave me an ultimatum aged 16 to either dump my boyfriend or not be able to stay in her house to finish school.

Are you still living with her Rowena? If so, get out if you can. If not, be a grey rock - don't give her any information on your friends or relationships.

I used to think with my mother that it was possessiveness/overprotectiveness but I realised in time that she just didn't like to see anyone else around her happy.

Ontherise/Upsidedown, I can see sense in what both of you are saying. I think a strongly worded NC letter/mention of the police can stop some crazy parents in their tracks, as they realise you've finally seen through them and aren't going to take any more shit (and then they just pretend you don't exist and move on to their next victim). For others it's a red rag to a bull. It's hard to know which one you have, though. Generally though I'm a big fan of just being a really boring grey rock and gradually withdrawing from the "relationship" - and I would agree that if you can let go of any worry/hope about how you're perceived by people who know you both, that really makes life simpler, makes it easier to move on. Ultimately you want to get to a headspace where you can live your life and make your decisions in full knowledge that you were abused, even if not a single person from your past believes you. That's the test. You know it happened, you have to learn to trust and believe in yourself.

Hi. I'm new to this thread.

I am at an early stage in coming to terms with my childhood. I need to mark my place here, to say, I am here, I take up space, and I exist. That is all right now.

Welcome erinaceus!

Rowena damn, I just read back my first post on this thread and I'm starting to repeat myself! Yeah, I think my mother's jealous of any happiness - we don't see her now, I finally went NC last year and it's been a real load off. We were used to dealing with her but now we have small kids as well, I just don't have the mental energy to do the work to maintain a relationship with her. And DH says he's extremely happy not to have Christmases ruined any more... it was like inviting the Grinch, it's true.
I'm glad to hear you're away and you've got a job sorted and everything, that's really good. God, it's so awful isn't it? An abusive parent is just the gift that keeps on giving. Anyone else, you're back trying to find a job, they would give you encouragement not use it as an opportunity to belittle you, but those batshit narcissist parents... whenever you have a challenge in your life, and they are there, you have to be twice as strong because you have to manage it while looking like it's the easiest thing in the world to you.

Hi all, I'm new to this thread and a bit nervous of posting because I'm not sure my parents are narcissistic, more just shit. But anyway.

We were a fairly normal family, barring the fact my dad's an alcoholic and has been my whole life. We lost a house when I was 6 due to his drinking and had to live in a hostel for a bit. When I was about that age I made him a birthday card with his "favourite things" on it: beer, wine and meat. I didn't realise this wasn't what other dad's favourite things were.

My mum was mostly great when we were growing up. She took us out somewhere every Saturday and whilst my dad was in the pub on a Sunday we'd go for a walk or to the park. However, there were things, like when I really struggled to make friends at school she wasn't ever very understanding about it (even though she had the same issue) and when I was "dumped" by my friends when I was 15 in front of loads of people and had a massive crying jag she basically told me to pull myself together. When I was about 16 she asked why I didn't have friends like a normal teenager and that it wasn't normal for me to be spending as much time with her as I did. My middle sister was a very, very normal teenager, which caused tensions with my dad as that was a bit of a surprise after home-bound me and there were occasions when they would literally square up to each other. Funnily enough she lives with him now.

My parents split up when I was 18 and my youngest sister was 12. My mum was very obviously having an affair (she left a conversation open on facebook amongst other things) but still won't admit to this. She drove my dad round the bend as she was acting so suspiciously. On Boxing Day things came to a head and my dad threatened to kill himself and I called the police. He was arrested for breach of the peace (he was drunk out of his skull) and the first person my mum called was my future step-father, who she was definitely not having an affair with. Two months later my dad went to see his step-mum in South Africa for a week just before he moved out and I went home that weekend to spend time with my mum. She decided that was the best weekend to introduce us to her partner and we were all distraught at how unthinking this was. Even her partner said he thought it might have been a little bit too soon for him to have come to stay. I then had to spend my Saturday night listening to their bedroom noises and when I expressed upset at this my mum just countered with "well you stay over with your boyfriend, don't you?" Not in her earshot I didn't.

My little sister didn't take any of this very well and stopped going to school and started to be verbally abusive and violent. About 18 months on, when she was 13 and we'd moved to the next county and in with my mum's partner she kicked off one morning about going to school, shouting and screaming extremities, and pulled my mum's hair, pulling out her earring. My step-dad phoned the police and she was arrested for assault. My mum pressed charges and I was my sister's appropriate adult in court even though I was only 19 and didn't feel old enough to be anyone's appropriate adult. I threw up the morning we had to go. She got a referral order and I ended up being in charge of getting her to those meetings, but when I went back to uni she stopped going to them and got recalled to court. She refused to go and was arrested in her pyjamas and spent the night in a cell, before being given a conditional discharge in the morning. My mum then refused to take her back, saying that she wanted her to be taken into care (probably the thing I find hardest to forgive my mum for). Obviously social services don't just put children in care if another parent is able to take them in so she ended up sleeping on my dad's sofa for 3 years. My dad's drinking was no better, he works 7 days a week and my sister got mixed up in the wrong crowds and drugs. She's 18 now and has a diagnosis of BPD and has managed two years of college, lives independently in a hostel for vulnerable young people and is sort of doing OK, although has no real plans to get into work any time soon. She's been so damaged by the way my mum treated her and it really hurts.

Meanwhile my step-dad spent an awful lot of time shouting at me because I found it hard to get a job after uni. I actually did quite well and was only unemployed for 2 separate months between temp jobs but evidently this wasn't good enough. In the summer between second and third year he wanted me to pay rent and called me useless and good for nothing and said I clearly didn't care a jot about my mum because I wasn't contributing. I could understand this if he was brassic, but he earns a lot of money but expects my mum to pay half of all the rent and bills despite the fact she earns less then half of what she does.

Since getting together with my step-dad my mum has become more and more distant. She never, ever phones me and when I try to bring this up she says that she "keeps up on Facebook", however this didn't alert me to the fact my grandad was ill and other such goings on. I know I should phone her and sometimes I do, but I feel like it shouldn't just be down to me. My dad rings me about twice a year and never has any idea what I'm doing even though I tell him (when he phoned me to congratulate me on getting into my Education masters he went off on some ramble about me trying for the civil service. I'd just qualified as a teacher.)

I just feel so very unsupported by my family and so do my sisters. My mum claims the lack of contact is because "she isn't a nosy mum" but if she was at least I'd feel cared about. Recently she's announced that none of us are allowed to move back into her house, which is fine for me as I am 300 miles away and independent but my younger sisters live closer to home in precarious living situations (I think my dad has just lost his flat, but nobody tells me anything so I can't be sure. This means my middle sister will be homeless too.)

Should I be forcing more contact or staying low contact? Am I in the right to be really upset about the way we've been treated? I feel like my mum never wanted children but ended up with 3, and feels like now we're all over 18 her duties are done and we don't need her. But I do. I really need my mum.

Sorry, long post!

Hi Puzzled

I'm not a regular on this thread but I did see a pattern in your mums behaviour - her needs to be with a man always come before her childrens' needs for a mother who behaves appropriately and a stable home.

If she had been able to priortise you girls she would have left your alcoholic father, but in a sensible adult way rather than having an affair and "forgetting" to hide the evidence of from your father. She would have been careful about how she introduced a new man into your lives and she would never have allowed her child to be taken into care. Your little sister sounds like she was hard work but it also sounds a bit like your mum washed her hands of her to some extent, perhaps while under the influence of your stepfather who sounds rather overbearing and rigid.

And making you at aged 19 your sister's responsible adult in court, while your mum prosecuted her? What is that all about ! Its sounds crazy and again like your mother is incapable of really thinking through what an experience like that would feel like for you.

You obviously feel like you really need your mum - of course you do. But it does sound like she may never be able to be that mum you need, which is very sad to have to get used to but the reality is you might save yourself heartache if you accept it.

Seek out other good relationships where mutual needs can be thought about and respected and keep the crazy-making people in your life at a distance. You'll get hurt otherwise.

Hello all, I've posted a few times on here before about my relationship with my family and ongoing drama surrounding NC and my pregnancy (first GC)

Today I let the FOG get to me and messaged asking NM and NB to confirm if the wanted to know when PFB arrives and if so what number DH should contact them on.

NM sent 2 line reply - "you have my number it's not changed since the last time you called. Call anytime day or night"
NB didn't reply.

Now I feel shit because once again they have shown no interest in me or how I am or how my pregnancy is going. Please give me a virtual slap and tell me it's ok to not contact them again.

I feel like I'm in danger of sabotaging my own happiness at the birth of my PFB out of FOG.

I'll give you some virtual and and tell you it's absolutely fine not to contact them again! Once there's a grandkid they go into overdrive, and it's not always in a direction you can predict, but it will be guaranteed to do your head in.

Is your DH on board? That will make it easier.

Hello all

Firstly I don't know why MNHQ won't let me change my username, please call me OZ

I'm so glad to have found this thread. Just reading through the posts has been immensely comforting, thank you.

I have recently been attending some counselling for a past EA relationship I was in a few years ago that I was still feeling the after effects of. The counselling was really effective for this, but has brought up loads of stuff about my family which I really wasn't prepared for.

I always knew that my relationship with my Dad was dysfunctional. I now live far away from my parents and don't really speak to D anymore, have completely compartmentalised him and was sort of pretending he doesn't exist. Anyway the gist of what was raised at counselling is that I ended up in a long term EA relationship from being a late teen that spanned university years that basically mirrored the way D treated me and M.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2268977-The-Abuser-Profiles

I came across this thread yesterday which articulates things very well. When we were growing up (and now to a lesser extent - parents still together) D was 80% 'the water torturer' - but with more physical stuff, constant threat of violence and explosive rage than the description - and 20% 'mr right' and 'the victim' for good measure. Think constant gas lighting, meanness, etc. I was also expected to behave like an adult when I was a child. I remember feeling that I was only valued if I was being silent - like a doll. D would always be telling me to be quiet. D would be frustrated that I couldn't take care of myself if I was ill for example, he had a lack of care. In the house we were constantly on eggshells, always fearful of saying or doing something wrong (could be literally anything). D's temper and rage was like a constant malignant presence that we all felt but never spoke about. M was mainly placatory and never challenged this, usually taking D's side in anything to protect herself I suppose.

When I was a teenager things changed slightly and I felt that D had a personal vendetta against me. Presumably this was because I was a teenager, a girl, intelligent: inherently more of a challenge than a child. D is also v misogynistic and insults he would use when I was a teenager would be in this vein. He was a lot more physically aggressive in this time period. I have a younger DB and D does not treat him in any way as contemptuously. Also there is a significant amount of value placed on my DB over me. For example money was withheld to me during my GCSE's and A Levels and I worked 2 jobs during this time period in order to be able to afford basic stuff. However DB is not allowed to work as his studies are 'important' and so is given money. I was expected to clean the house from being a child as it was my 'duty', DB is paid and congratulated if he ever does any basic chore like washing up.

Reading 'the water torturer' actually made me cry because it describes how I've felt towards D and about myself since being a child, as far back as I can remember, and am only now starting to see it for what it is. I am feeling anger about it for the first time which is strange because I have never felt this emotion before. I have always just felt like there is something wrong with me and that I deserve this. it also explains why I quickly got into a relationship in my late teens with someone who used exactly the same tactics, because at that point it was normal interaction for me and the relationship I had seen being played out between my parents.

What is actually quite painful and positive about all this is that i'm starting to stop having self doubt and stopping minimising every single experience/feeling I have re all of this. Usually there's a voice in my head that says 'you shouldn't feel like X - that's stupid, you're pathetic/overreacting/overemotional/something wrong with you' etc - which is exactly what my dad would always tell me during or after being abusive. Instead I'm seeing things for what they are and naming them which is SO scary and upsetting but also good because it means I can deal with them.

At this point I am basically NC with D. My DM understands the situation but probably not the extent of my anger. I suspect they may split in the near future (wishful thinking) but I have said I will support her no matter what. There is no pressure for me to spend time at the family home - I see her outside of it. Is there any point in me making contact to tell him how I feel? I know that he will reject it and say he has done nothing wrong. And I don't feel equipped to deal with the pain and upset of that just to have the validity of my experiences questioned again.

I know this thread has been about narcissistic mothers. I hope you don't mind me posting. I can't begin to thank you all for your posts and replies - sending strength and to you all.

P.S
Puzzled, like a poster above said, it seems like your mum has a history of putting her partners above her daughters whether she realises this or not. You've been expected to be an adult from a young age which is hard and can often result in your own needs getting lost completely. Maybe it's time to think about what these are. You say you feel like you need your mum. I think you need to be careful though, go with your gut but also ultimately be prepared to protect yourself and your feelings and do what is best for your own mental health and wellbeing. If that ends up being LC then maybe that's for the best?

Thanks for the replies I had my first session of CBT today which has helped, I think the root of my social anxiety comes from how I've been treated by my family, I discussed this with my councillor particularly how my mum has treated me over the last few years.

Her immediate reaction was why would you still want that person to be part of your life?

Weird to have it confirmed in person

Hello,
I've been coming to and fro from this thread for a couple of years now, but never know where to start really.

My husband took his own life a year ago. My mother made it all about her, and how distressing it was for her. Too distressing to even send flowers and I was to send them on her behalf, whilst I was grieving and organising DH's funeral, which was "too difficult" for her to attend. She hasn't really spoken to me since, I have 2 sisters, neither chose to get married or have children.

As soon as I started seeing DH, she put me under pressure to have a child with him. Because of my upbringing, in a loveless marriage, I decided I didn't want children - how the fuck would I know how to parent? The only time she does contact me is to say I was selfish not to have given her grandchildren, and what a "good parent" she is to me and my siblings.

An example of her "good parenting" is when she had an affair with my DSis' boyfriend's father. When she returned to my father (married affair bloke ended it), it was on the condition that my DSis left home. She was 16, and my father drove her to the ferry to England, (we lived abroad at the time).

Until DH died, I was studying for my psychotherapy degree, and something that sticks in my mind is what John Bowlby stresses - you don't have to be the best parent, all that's needed is to be a "good enough" parent. So it really rankles when my mother tells me, "We were good parents." I've never told them they weren't. But all I remember is being criticised, ie. for my appearance, and a long long list of everything else you can imagine.

I'm not asking for answers, I just didn't know where to start really...

for you RubbishMantra

I'm so sorry about your husband. What a devastating thing to happen.

And as for your mother .... words fail me ... I've read that a crisis can make people like your mother ramp up their outrageous behaviour. It certainly sounds like that in your case. In my case my mother was beyond appalling when I was diagnosed with cancer. Just unfathomable behaviour. I'm so sorry you had to put up with that - you deserved total love and support.

It's interesting what you say about neither you nor your sisters wanting children. I don't have children either, and nor does my brother. It was never a conscious decision for either of us - but I suspect we both associated childhood with unhappiness, and having children as a horrible burden. I think there are lots of us out there who feel the same. Such a shame - through friends I can see that being a Mum can actually be quite a marvellous thing.

Are you going to continue your psychotherapy degree? I can see how things could have been too difficult since your husband died, but I bet you would make an amazing therapist. You've been dealt a rubbish hand in life - but with that comes empathy and compassion in spades for any of your clients going through the same.

Best of luck to you

Rubbish your parents are awful, awful people. I hope you do go nc, you'd feel better for it. You don't deserve the treatment they give you.

I hope you have someone with you this weekend

Thank you green. DH used to drink copious amounts of green tea.

I'm so sorry you were diagnosed with cancer. Are you in the process of receiving treatment, or in remission? And I'm so sorry you didn't get support from your mother. I can sort of imagine what you did get, and it makes me shudder.

What you said about you and DBro re. children, I went to boarding school, and as soon as I began to enjoy it, and not write "I'm homesick! Please take me home!" letters she wanted to remove me and have her home with her. I went home for holidays less and less, preferring to stay with school friends, or my sisters, who also left home at 16, like me. When my counsellor asked me to think of an adjective to describe the times I had to be at their house as a child, the only word I could think of was "Dry".

I am in 2 minds about returning to psychotherapy, I wouldn't be fit for BACP registration atm because I've been diagnosed with chronic depression. My sisters also have mental health issues, one the same as me and the other Bi-Polar.

Reading through this thread has made me realise that these types of parents all seem to follow similar patterns. All parents aren't like that though are they?

Hello Fluffy

I want to process this weekend alone - I'm a bit of a loner anyway.

I have gone extremely LC.

My mother had a Lumpectomy a couple of weeks ago, and my father skyped DSis and laughed as he told her "You're mother's having her breast chopped off." Lovely. Parents can't stand each other, loveless marriage right from the get-go. They like to hand out portions of misery pie.

I remember when I was about 11, and she told me my father was impotent, and she'd even tried going "down there" (she meant a blow job), but she was glad it didn't work, because she never liked that part of being married anyway. And that my (future) husband would want to do "disgusting things". Well, I started doing these "disgusting things" well before I was married, and enjoyed them tremendously!

They slept in separate rooms from their early 40s.

It reads like a dark comedy when I read my post back.

It's true that you see the same things on here time and time again. There are good parents out there.

I wonder if a lot of us turned out to be loners because early human interaction wasn't rewarding so we learnt to rely on ourselves more.

🍸