"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's February 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Sorry, just read that last one back, aware I sound a bit nuts, typed it out at speed with my toddler around. Basically, was about to cease the NC with DM and try to have a proper conversation about why I had done it in the first place, but not so sure now. Looking back on today, I"m fairly sure DM and stepdad saw me, not sure how they could have not have when I was right in front of them, and then virtually hollering the last time I said 'Mum'. Maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to stay NC but that sure did help.

Bumping as the thread has gone really quiet again

Short-term but intensive lurker here- I've spent a few weeks reading all of the 2016 thread. It has really helped, learning about others' experiences. Currently NC with one parent (parents aren't together and haven't been since I was v young, so luckily no need to cut out the other one!)
Do you mind a childfree (I resent the term childless!) lurker and occasional poster? My friend directed me to this thread when I told her about my family, and after reading 35 pages of posts I feel too emotionally invested to try and find somewhere else online catering to the childfree!

Hi THATS I only have furry "kids"
You have to be a parent to be on here. I'm quite sure I don't want kids, I'm 34, but if it ever happens I want to learn from my parents mistakes.

flowers to you

Sorry, my post should have read, You DON'T have to have kids to be on here.

I'm listening if you want to share anything?

slowly reading my way through all of this. Something happened and I lost control and let out a whole lot to my parents, and now of course they are super upset and don't agree and its just me trying to hurt them again.

I didn't handle it well but lots of things had to be said. I was trying to hold it all in so as not to upset them and blurted it out.

Have sent an apology but suspect that unless I take complete blame and say that I was wrong about the issues that they will be nc now.

tbh, that might be better - otherwise I will live in fear of upsetting them again.

I occasionally read this thread but have never posted. I too have a difficult mother who has left me with baggage. I have had no contact with her for over 15 years. It was not an easy decision to make but there is no doubt in my mind it was the correct decision. The mind games, bitching and hassle are not what I need in my life. When I tell people I don't have contact with my mother they are not sure how to respond as they have normal and good relationships with their mums. A mum is not a mum no matter what. That title does not give anyone the right to treat another person as a second class citizen. To everyone experiencing a difficult time, be strong and move on.

Hello, this is my first post on here. I’m sorry it’s a long one.

I'm about to have my first child and it's raising a lot of issues surrounding my childhood. I'm really down at the moment and crying a lot, because I keep on thinking of already how much I love my unborn baby and wondering how my parents could have said and did some of the things that they did.

My Dad was an angry military man, who hit me regularly into my mid teens. I would run and hide in the bathroom for hours (as it was the only room with a lock) but he would wait outside until I left and then hit me. I wasn't a bad child; loved school, straight A*s at GCSE/A-Levels, involved in lots of (free) extra-curricular activities etc, this would be for any perceived answering back or smart talk. He never hit my younger sister though, and I once heard him bragging to family about how he'd hit me but not her. He'd often throughout my teens make comments about my weight, the size of my chest, once told me the small stretch marks on my thighs were because I'd got too fat (I've never been above a size 8 and was incredibly sporty at school). Told me I looked like a dyke when I had should length hair, because girls should have long hair.

He and my mother often told me and my sister how they’d really wanted a boy, and I’m actually finding it really upsetting now I’m having a little boy myself how my Dad goes on about the things he can do with his grandson that he couldn’t do with me and my sisters. He keeps on saying how he’ll take my baby fishing, because that’s what boys like, forgetting that DH and I are both lifelong vegetarians and hardly going to encourage our child to participate in blood sports!

He still has significant issues with alcohol (drinking two bottles of wine and several brandy and cokes on a work evening is not unusual) and gets nasty and belligerent because of it. The police were once called round when I was 6/7 because he threw a coffee table at my mum in a drunken argument. Police were also called round when he threatened the father of the family across the road with a golf club because ‘they were army scum’. He had numerous bullying complaints made against him during his RAF career

As an adult, I moved 250miles away, have a career he doesn’t understand, and a very different lifestyle. I haven’t lived at home since I was 18 (always had jobs with accommodation, then went to uni, didn’t go home in the holidays). He still tries to put me down constantly. When I graduated with first class degree and prizes and a job lined up from my science degree, told me how he was always disappointed that I didn’t study English. When I passed all my professional qualifications to do my technical scientific job, how he thought I’d have been better off going into teaching. Disappointed I never went to Oxbridge (even though I still went to a top university, but it doesn’t sound as good when he wants to show off to his friends).

My Dad was away a lot on detachment, and my Mum struggled with me and my sister. She had several affairs and once left me aged 8 with my sister aged 6 alone over-night. At 3am I went and told the next door neighbor that my mum hadn’t come home, police were called and my mum was eventually found walking home at 7am the next morning. I once also walked in on her and the guy she was having an affair with in bed (around the same age). She smacked me and told me that if I ever told anyone, then the family would break up and it would all be my fault. She didn’t hit me often, preferring to leave that to my Dad, but there was an occasion when I was around 6/7 years old when I refused to wear and outfit she’d picked out for me to wear for a trip to the pantomime with the school. She hit me so hard, I went flying across the room and hit the radiator and there was blood. I wore the outfit and remember her lying to my teacher when I got on the bus about my cut on my head. When I raised this with her a few years ago, I just got told to remember that she was depressed at the time.

Dad was the same with Mum regarding constant comments about appearance, often telling her he fancied her more when she weighed 7.5stone when they first met, and so she had lots of issues with body appearance. When we went clothes shopping as a teen, if I couldn’t fit into something, she would take it off me and gloat if it would fit her. Instead of protecting me from my Dad, she almost seemed to enjoy it if someone else was being called fat. I get on with my Mum much better than my Dad, but our relationship is mainly based on me feeling sorry for her, because my Dad is so abusive. But then I think, she’s a grown adult and she chooses to be with him. There were many things in our childhood she could have protected me and my sister from, but chose to have us witness an abusive and violent marriage.

I never had pocket money because they were too poor (but could afford holidays away for themselves and to drink to excess most nights) which actually meant I couldn’t have many friends as I couldn’t participate in anything non-school related until I got my first shop and factory jobs aged 15. All things relating to money got a huge guilt trip put on you. They paid nothing towards my university education, my DH supported me the most, but my parents insisted on taking the two tickets to my graduation (thankfully, DH has attended enough graduations of his own, and is a well-balanced lovely man who understands the situation). I also had a conversation with some family friends a year ago, in which I was told I was lucky my Dad paid for my wedding. It was news to me, as DH and I had saved and worked really hard to pay for the whole thing ourselves! They didn’t even buy us a wedding present (which I’m not bothered about), but to have the cheek to suggest he’d paid for my wedding.

All these things in isolating may sound little and petty, but it was just so constantly overwhelming. If you asked my parents, they’d tell you my sister and I had a lovely childhood and a roof over our heads, and with referencing this thread title, taken to national trust properties at weekends and spent lots of ‘family time’ together (read; kept us isolated and friendless). They possibly would argue that their disciplining style and the fact that they left me and my little sister alone from a young age was just what people did at the time (mid 1990s, I’m now mid 20s).

All of this came to a head this weekend when talking to my Dad on the phone. I’ve been having extra growth scans for placenta issues meaning baby is a little small, and my Dad told me that all that matters is I have a nice big strong boy. I hung up and cried for hours. I’ve had a difficult pregnancy, ended up dehydrated in hospital in the first trimester from constant vomiting. My dad didn’t bother calling to see how I was, and then when I sent all the grandparents pictures of an early 8 week scan we’d had to rule out multiples or a molar pregnancy being the cause of my sickness, he posted on facebook the picture, with all my personal details on it, bragging about how proud he was to become a grandfather. I asked him to take it down because I didn’t want the whole world knowing I was pregnant at 8 weeks and he refused. He’s all about appearances and control. Again with the difficult pregnancy, vomiting and then placenta issues, both parents kept on trotting out the line ‘Pregnancy isn’t an illness’. I was in hospital, and my Mum was telling my grandparents they could come round and stay at my house. I really didn’t want elderly guests who need entertaining when I couldn’t leave the bathroom for vomiting.

I don’t know what’s right to do. I have really bad anxiety issues from my teenage years, I struggle with being a people pleaser and I don’t find making friends very easy. My lovely DH is the absolute opposite, he’s my absolute rock and has a large group of very close friends from his childhood who are lovely and supportive. I have a couple of close friends, who are lovely, but I do struggle. With my baby being a little boy, it’s opening up so many feelings that DH thinks I’ve basically repressed for quite a lot of years in favour of going along with the status quo. I’ve previously had CBT, but DH thinks psychotherapy might be a better option for me, and has several times suggested that he would be more than happy to pay for me and my sister to see someone privately (I get on very well with my sister, and we’ve talked about our upbringing a little bit lately. She feels very similar to me, but has always managed low contact just through claiming she’s busy with her job).

I don’t want them to have any contact with me or my baby. I don’t want any of their dysfunctional habits to be passed on to my child. I am very down at the moment. I don’t know how much psychotherapy would help. It hurts thinking about it all and I’ve been feeling constantly close to tears for a few weeks now. Baby is due in a couple of weeks and I just want to hide away from the world. I don’t know what I want to achieve by posting this. I don’t know if no contact would help or make things worse.

I've not been about for a while, too much rubbish from my narcissistic and emotionally abusive mother (since childhood) to deal with.

But something's happened and it's destroying my life.

I have severe M.E that renders me bed-bound, and using a wheelchair. I can walk but the pain it causes is immense and leads to major fatigue rebounds.

I was recently in hospital. I was taken in by ambulance and stayed for four days. When I was discharged I had to walk 4-500 yards to my fathers car. I was on a surgical ward and no chairs were available.

Upon doing so,my father turned to my wife and daughter (I wasn't in earshot) and said "There's nothing fucking wrong with him at all. He needs get his lazing fucking arse out of bed and do stuff".

I broke down when my wife told me. For decades I've seen my mother as the narc and my father as her enabler. I've no clue what the dynamic is now. When he comes to collect my daughter to stay there he refuses to come into the house, he will stay outside in his car peeping his horn repeatedly, or get out and yell her name, with no thought or consideration for others. We like in a very small rural village too.

With my counselling slowing. I missed an appt due to being in hospital and I'm now at the back of the queue. I've opened my mouth and spoke about mother and my sexual assault to her too. So, I was having panic attacks because of it before, they are now getting much, much worse.

Thank you Daisy. I do now remember you mentioning you didn't have children a few pages ago. It's nice to be welcomed!

I'm absolutely terrified of being recognised on here- the people I'm hiding from wouldn't confront me if they found me, they'd just spy on me and use it against me. So I'm going to have to be a combination of vague and untruthful to throw anyone off the scent. It'll still be relevant and stuff that's happened, but changed enough to make it less recognisable.

I'm NC with one parent and have been for a while. Well I say NC, I have made it plain I don't want contact. Every few months I receive contact reminding me how awful I am and that we can always "talk it over". I don't want to. The parent is good at manipulation and mind control. I always reply stating my position; a non reply would be used against me. I know I shouldn't "engage" but as the contacts are so few and far between I feel it's less dangerous than ignoring it; I'd foreverbe afraid of flying monkeys swooping down if I didn't reply.

Bit of a vent but also a question as there is a birthday coming up in the next few weeks (the parent's). I sent a card to their spouse for their birthday (lovely person with whom I have no quarrel and think they only stay with the parent out of fear). Should I send a card to the parent? I think I already know the answer. But what do I do if they "call me out" on it? They sent me a card (it was nothing more than an excuse to remind me how horrible I am and how I "owe" them as they are my parent) so when I don't send one that's ammo.

I know it sounds really minor but behind this is a very long history of controlling mind games. Everyone around the parent is constantly on tenterhooks, wanting to rearrange the world to their liking. I'm so much happier and less stressed now I'm NC. I like my life, which I didn't for an incredibly long time.

Confused your story could be mine, minus the violence. You shouldn't allow dangerous people access to tour children, it's as simple as that. If you didn't happen to share some DNA with these awful people, you wouldn't think twice about ever speaking to them again. Stop trying to please your Dad by updating him on your life, you will never get his approval. In his eyes you could always be thinner, prettier, better employed, have "better" (ie the "right" gender) children.

tropical I'm not surprised you say "reel me in" - it's not cynical, you're probably right! It's a classic step in the cycle of abuse, to start acting all nice so that you'll come back and they can abuse you some more. On the blanking: I find it really hard to believe that they could miss you, passing by 2-3m in front of you, then both turning away? And not hearing when you called? That feels like a classic little bit of deniable nastiness there, and your impulse to give the benefit of the doubt is really typical of someone who's been emotionally abused - you question your own reality. Listen to the little voice inside of you who's telling you they blanked you on purpose. That's the part of you that's looking out for you.

Goodenough hello! No, no children required on here - just a crazy parent (figure). What would happen if you just went 100% NC with this parent, threw every communication in the bin, blocked their email etc etc? It seems like just now, you're still being hurt by their negative opinion of your actions. Is it the flying monkeys that stop you from cutting contact altogether?

Yoko welcome

darling A mum is not a mum no matter what. I really, really hate it when people say "but she's your mum!" and I think, yeah, that's why it's so bad that she was abusive! Being someone's mother is such a huge responsibility - I feel it every time I put DD2 to bed, and she gets me in a headlock and cuddles me like she's trying to squeeze the juice out of me, and I think, what did I do to deserve this love? The truth is, as a little kid she's going to love me this much whatever I do, and that is a terrifying amount of power to have over someone. Anyone with a bit of humanity will try not to hurt a person who loves them that much. And anyone who uses that love to bend a child to their will and gratify their ego should be kept away from decent people.

SadandConfused
All these things in isolating may sound little and petty
Dear christ, no, petty is the last thing it sounds. Headline: you have a violent alcoholic father and an emotionally and sometimes physically abusive mother.
If I were you I would go for the psychotherapy and I would go NC. Psychotherapy will be very useful in helping you understand your family of origin and when the baby arrives, it will help you understand and cope with your feelings about everything. I really wish I'd been with a therapist before my kids were born.
NC won't necessarily make you feel better, but it will stop things getting a whole lot worse when the baby arrives. Your parents are abusive, they don't respect your boundaries, and they lie - I suspect when your baby arrives they'll use the opportunity to undermine you while you're feeling vulnerable, and try to convince you that their parenting wasn't as bad as it was. They may repeat their abusive behaviour with your son, or they may try to be very nice to him, which serves the purpose of gaslighting you about your own childhood ("look how nice we are to your son! You must have been a really awful daughter for us to have been nasty to you") and gives them the opportunity to try and turn him against you or at the very least stay in your life being awful so that they can "have a relationship with their grandson". This is what I lived for 3 years with my girls before going NC, I should have gone NC as soon as I knew I was pregnant. If you do go NC, do it properly - block them on your phone, on your FB, change your locks if they have a key. You've been brutalised by them for your whole life, you're trained for it, it is the easiest thing in the world for them to bully you, so when they find out you've gone NC, make sure that you (for the first time in your life) don't have to listen to them acting out their anger. Not your problem.

(Also you may find your mood improves when your baby arrives - I found that, I was worried and just down and dreading the whole thing when I was in the last few weeks of pregnancy, and then once my girls were born, I was bloody knackered but it felt as if I'd been shocked back to life.)

Steve you're back! I'm really sad to hear that things are not going so well. Your dad's an arsehole. You're really brave to be talking about the big issues in therapy, and I'm sorry to hear that the treatment for your M.E. is getting in the way of that. That's just really rubbish. I'm angry on your behalf that they can't be joined up in this - christ, someone suffering a physical illness that complicates their emotional issues should be getting more help, not punishment...

I'm a bit up and down at the moment. I stopped doing therapy a couple of months ago and I think I should have stayed. It's a lot of money, I guess that was a reason (although we can afford it) but I also was worried that talking a lot about the abuse was making me unhappy day to day (a stage you need to go through, I know) but also with a lower mood, and after talking a lot about my mother and the way she would talk to me and stuff - it felt like it would be a lot easier to react to my own kids like that. It seemed a safer option to just stuff all of that down in a box somewhere and carry on with my current coping mechanisms of eating and drinking a bit too much. I don't know, I don't know. My kids are so awesome. I really want to be the best parent I could be to them. I also don't want to hang that on them, of I gave up therapy for you. There is other shitty stuff in my life right now (career) and there is this impulse to just sit under the table, just go fuck you all, and the effort of unfolding and going and doing positive things, when I feel like in my life I've worked so hard and often been disappointed to me - the effort required to believe in the future is sickening. But what am I going to do? I can't not try and make it better.

SadAndConfused, you've been so brave to share all of that. Your parents have abused you horribly, and you deserve so much better.

I've been NC with my parents for nearly three years now and things are SO much easier. Therapy has helped me a lot, too. You don't have to make any decisions now, all you have to do is be kind to yourself, and refuse to engage with any nonsense. Learn to use the word "no!", which is difficult to do but very effective once you get it. And whenever you start worrying and dwelling on the problem that is your parents, stop. Refuse to play that game with yourself. Take a few calming breaths, and remind yourself you're better than that.

I hope all goes well for you and your lovely baby.

Steve, that sounds horrible. I've been diagnosed with fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome, and have recently been told I have functional neuropathy too. The doctor I saw was very anxious about explaining to me that it's probable that my many symptoms, including a lot of pain and fatigue, have been caused by the traumas I've experienced (very difficult childhoon) but I was so pleased to hear it: at last, a definite diagnosis and things I can do to help myself other than resting. It's described a bit here:

www.sth.nhs.uk/neurosciences/neurology/neurology-psychotherapy-service/functional-neurological-disorders

I also found The Last Best Cure (I think) an interesting book.

I hope you're ok. Don't listen to your father, he isn't prepared to understand.

Hello again,

Thank you for the replies. I've been really dwelling on this for a few weeks now. My parents were abroad for a while so I had some time without contact and the first conversation I had with my Dad when they got back, he came out with the 'big, strong, boy comment', which is really not the worst or most insensitive thing he's ever said, but I've had enough.

Yesterday evening I answered the phone to my Mum as I'd been dodging her calls for a few days and she had started sending messages to my DH and sister demanding to know why I wasn't answering her calls. I said I was struggling with anxiety at the moment and said that a few issues from my childhood were at the forefront of my mind at the moment, and mentioned the hitting and my Dad's constant bullying. She starting going on about how she was sorry she was such a terrible mother, everything was all her fault, but then quickly turned nasty and told me I was absolutely hysterical and that I need to bloody well grow up. I hung up. I have blocked them both on facebook, my phone and on my e-mails.

My poor sister says both my Mum and Dad have been hounding her all day, demanding to know what is wrong with me. They will either give her a hard time until she engages and talks about me, or be super nice to her in an attempt to divide and conquer us. We're placing bets on the former to begin with because they are angry and the latter by next week. I've told her she could either pretend she hasn't spoken to me for a while, or tell them she has no interest in getting involved. I know she won't give them much information about me anyway. As I said previously, she's been low contact for years, as she works unsociable hours in the hospitality industry and has always managed to use that as an excuse to see them less than me (I live 250miles from home, she lives 20miles away), so she is an expert at not really engaging with our parents! She's happy with her current set up with our parents, and I wouldn't ever ask her to do anything she doesn't want to.

I know that they'll now start insinuating my mental health issues will stop me from being a good parent, and they'll start expressing their concern for me. I'm seeking help for my MH and will go back to the doctor to discuss medication for once baby is born (obviously can't take anything until then). I feel safe that my DH is a lovely person and well respected professional in a medical field, who supports me and wants me to deal with this, so that if my parents ever made social services allegations, my child would be in very safe and capable hands with him and his parents (particularly his Mum who loves children).

I'm on a counseling waiting list at the moment, and had a chat with someone over the phone yesterday about what I want to discuss so they can assign me to the right person. It was hard saying it out loud.

Please can other people tell me how they broke some of their parents habits? I do get very angry for no reason at times, and sometimes lash out at my partner (not physically, but it doesn't make it any better). I don't ever want my children to see me and my partner fight (my DH says he never recalls his parents fighting), I never want to hit my children, I don't want them to ever be scared of me. I hope they are happy and do well enough to do whatever they want to do in life, do interesting things and are confident and a lot more resilient than me, and most importantly I want them to have lots of friends and healthy relationships.

Thatsnotgoodenough Thank you for your comment In his eyes you could always be thinner, prettier, better employed, have "better" (ie the "right" gender) children. That's exactly right, and is a far more eloquent way of saying something I was struggling to say.

Toomuchtooold Thank you for reassuring me that your mood lifted after your girls were born. I am worried about it. I just want to be a good parent. Thankfully, DH has managed to get 6weeks off in total post birth with me, which makes me feel a bit more relaxed that if my mood doesn't improve, then at least baby has one good parent around while I get myself sorted. I expect that if my parents had much contact with my DS, they would be overtly nice and spoil him, because he's a boy. My Dad reckons that all proper men want a son , and when I told him I was having a boy he came out with the utterly bizarre line 'I always knew our dynasty would properly start with you having a boy'. It worries me also that if I have another child (which I would like, but I haven't found pregnancy easy at all), if it was a girl she would end up being a second class citizen in their eyes. Fwiw, DH and I had no preference over baby being boy/girl at all, but as DH comes from a family that currently has all boys (brothers, nephews, cousins), he said a girl would have been a change. As it is, he's thrilled about our little baby boy and keeps on looking at star wars onesies (which I do not doubt he would also be doing if it was a girl!).

OnTheRise You are right. I need to say the word 'No' more often. I regularly find myself agreeing to things with family I don't want to do (because I'm too much of a people pleaser) and then feel very frustrated that I've agreed with or gone along with something. I don't know if I'm going to stop all contact yet, I certainly need a bit of space though. I need to master my sister's ability to just avoid everything without letting on that's what she does! Thank you for your wishes for me and my DS.

There was one more big issue that I chickened out of writing about last time. My Dad had a huge amount of pornography on the family computer when my sister and I were small up until about secondary school age. This wasn't hidden at all, but was the desktop images and screen savers of very sexually explicit images. I obviously don't remember very well, but I sort of recall thinking that some of the images looked as though they were of girls under the age of 16. My Dad gets through laptops very regularly. He's not very good with computers, and basically through all his dodgy downloads he gets viruses which renders the computer too difficult for him to use. He has a collection of 5/6 laptops under one of the beds at home. My Mum has often said she'd like a laptop of her own, and so I've offered a few times to wipe the hard drive and re-install an operating system so that Mum could have one of his old ones. He has alway vehemently refused, which really does make me wonder what is on them. I can't prove anything, and I only have unfounded suspicions based on recollections from a young age. The whole idea that he thought it was acceptable to expose me and my sister to pornographic images on the family computer makes me feel sick, disgusted and ashamed. I know this isn't normal, and that while lots of people look at pornography, most normal families choose to shield children from it.

I'm not sure whats pregnancy hormones/pre-natal depression and what is anxiety related to the idea of my parents being around my child and upset at how I was treated at the moment. It is overwhelming how hard these memories are coming back at the moment. I've not really dwelled on it since I left home, made the odd comment to dh but this is the first time I'm talking about a lot of this.

Thank you anonymous people of the internet for letting me vent. I don't exactly feel better, but having a few of you saying how it wasn't normal or right is making me feel a bit more confident/validated in my desire to limit my parents contact with my DS.

I'm sorry to read about other peoples dysfunctional relationships with family on this thread. It feels self-absorbed not responding to other peoples problems, but I'm not sure I'm the right person to offer anyone else help at the moment as I'm so confused as to what the right thing to do is. I do wish everyone all the best.

Please can other people tell me how they broke some of their parents habits? I do get very angry for no reason at times, and sometimes lash out at my partner (not physically, but it doesn't make it any better).

You can't change your parents' behaviour, you can only change how you react to it. My parents, for example, used to criticise me and if I tried to defend myself they'd say things like, "can't you take a joke?" or, "You're always complaining." Anything to put me in a negative light. I worked out that if I said, "No, I can't!" or, "Sure am!", and then was silent, it would diffuse them to some extent. Just don't give them the upset reaction they're looking for.

There's a huge amount of brilliant advice at CaptainAwkward.com which you might find helpful with this.

The thing that helped me feel less angry was CBT. Specifically, CBT to stop me ruminating to excess. I used to endlessly replay scenes from our arguments and wonder how I could have done better, or predict what they were going to say next and work out what I would respond with. But instead of making it better I gave all the negativity so much attention that it just got bigger and bigger and bigger, and I got mroe and more upset about it.

Now when I catch myself ruminating like that I take a few deep breaths, remind myself of how much better I'm doing, and make myself stop. I think happy thoughts. It sounds so trite but it really does help. You could think about how lucky you are to be expecting a lovely little baby, you could think about how it's going to feel seeing your baby for the first time: anything that gives you feelings of love and warmth and happiness. You can do this, and it's surprising how quickly you can turn things around for yourself if you're persistent with it.

If you google for "self compassion meditation" you will find some you can download and use for free. This has helped me a lot too.

There was one more big issue that I chickened out of writing about last time. My Dad had a huge amount of pornography on the family computer when my sister and I were small up until about secondary school age. This wasn't hidden at all, but was the desktop images and screen savers of very sexually explicit images. I obviously don't remember very well, but I sort of recall thinking that some of the images looked as though they were of girls under the age of 16.

Forcing you to see sexual images like that is sexual abuse. Don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. And it's a horrible, horrible thing for your father to have done.

If I knew my father had pornographic pictures of underage girls I'd report him to the police for possessing those images, but I'm not in a high-stress pregnancy like you are. So you could wait on this one for a while! Just make sure you speak to your therapist about it when you get one, and don't make excuses for him. Vile, vile man.

Sorry, I didn't comment on this:

I'm not sure whats pregnancy hormones/pre-natal depression and what is anxiety related to the idea of my parents being around my child and upset at how I was treated at the moment. It is overwhelming how hard these memories are coming back at the moment. I've not really dwelled on it since I left home, made the odd comment to dh but this is the first time I'm talking about a lot of this.

It might well be your pregnancy hormones kicking in but it doesn't matter: whatever is causing you to recognise how badly you were treated by your parents is doing you and your baby a favour. Neither of you should have to put up with their horrible behaviours. Protect yourself now, and when your baby is born, protect your baby. You are under no obligation to let them spend time with your baby no matter what they tell you. Be a fierce tiger mummy if you have to (I was!). Your baby needs you to look after it, and you're going to do it very well indeed.

Hello, toomuch! I've blocked their number for calling (it goes automatically to voicemail and I can periodically check if I've had any calls, whether or not they leave a message). I can't do that with texts though. Also, I'm less afraid of the flying monkeys than of the actual parent. Even though I know I can't reason with them, I feel better if I have acted 110% "reasonably" (if an impartial outsider were to judge) ie being civil and giving a short response if I get a text every few months wanting to "talk things over". The only flying monkey I've had didn't work out the way the parent had obviously hoped, because they got my "side" of the story before backing off (but did say "you should understand family is important" etc all that rubbish that places sacred importance upon the controlling mind manipulators simply on the basis of shared dna)

I suppose because they are so good at twisting and manipulating, I'm scared in future I'll begin to doubt myself. So if I have a written record of me being a reasonable person with no room for interpretation of me as the "cause", then I'll be less likely to fall into the trap of disbelieving my own memories of the row that caused the NC.

That's where the birthday card causes a dilemma. They sent me one (though it had a manipulative unpleasant message inside) so I can't tell how best to fit with my policy of being reasonable and civil- send a card or stay silent.

I realise I haven't given nearly enough background and it looks like I'm sitting here whining about a piece of paper and blowing it out of all proportion. I'm scared of being "recognised" on here (not sure if the parent or anyone else uses MN) by giving too much away. Rest assured, this person is capable of turning something as innocuous as a birthday card (or even text, or even when I sent my siblings Christmas presents- they still live with the parent) into an anxious, toxic nightmare. They poison everything.

Confused your Dad sounds awful with his "all real men want a son" comment. Even if it weren't for all of the other crap (including the horrific porn incidents) my instinct would be to keep away from him. He sounds like he just wants everyone to dance around him to his tune whilst he presides over you all as lord of the manor, issuing edicts. (Sorry, I think I'm transferring feelings about my own parent onto yours but I'm sure I'm not far off the truth!)

Can I ask - when does the hounding stop? I have gone NC with my narcissistic mother and told her (after she started hounding my OH at work) that i want a break from her, i don't want to engage with her - she has serious MH problems and I think is probably going into a manic cycle - she will be back in hospital when she crashes in the mean-time I am not engaging, but the constant letters are ridiculous.

Sadandconfused regarding breaking your parents' habits, do you mean habits you've picked up yourself? I struggle with that, and especially once my kids got old enough to backchat me, I've struggled as there's not very much healthy experience/memory I can draw on from my own childhood. What helps I find is paying attention to my mental state - I try not to let myself get too overtired/fed up without asking DH for help. Also meeting other people - when the kids were younger I went to a toddler group every day - seeing friends too, it helps you be the person you've become as an adult and not fall into behaviours you remember from childhood. And if you feel really low one day and you're , what my therapist told me and what I find works, is to imagine your child is someone else's and you're babysitting them. It sounds odd but it really works.
IME parenting after an abusive childhood can be tough - you have to act consciously a lot more, you have to think a lot more about how you respond to your kids, and if for you like me confidence is an issue, it is tough doing a job where you never really know if you're doing it well or not. But we tend to be empathic, good at taking care of other peoples' emotions - that helps a lot.

goodenough, please feel free to ignore this comment because it's your business how you deal with your parents, but I just wanted to challenge this:
Even though I know I can't reason with them, I feel better if I have acted 110% "reasonably" (if an impartial outsider were to judge)
The impartial observer would have to be ignoring your childhood abuse, and also previous episodes when your parent has been in contact and insulted you, to expect you to continue to be civil to this parent.

I realise I haven't given nearly enough background and it looks like I'm sitting here whining about a piece of paper and blowing it out of all proportion.

It doesn't, it really doesn't. You've not provided details on your background but I can imagine - one gaslighting, emotionally abusive parent is much the same as another, they all seem to operate off the same playbook. If your parent is like my mother, whatever you do will be interpreted as a slight, you can't do anything right. They project their own motivations onto you - you're deciding about sending a card based on trying to cause the lease harm, but they interpret it as an attempt to manipulate or insult them - because if they did it, it would be! It's exhausting.

Hello. I've been lurking for a while, but this is my first post. I'm another 'it wasn't really abuse', and I feel ashamed and self piteous comparing myself to people who had worse. They would describe themselves as great parents, and me as unstable/difficult/bad/mad. They definitely did take me to stately homes, and piano lessons etc. They were good in many ways. My mother didn't love me, loved my younger brother. My father was aggressive, hit me on quite a lot of very memorable, traumatic occasions when I was very small. I'm told (in a rather sinister tone by my mother) that I must have 'false memory syndrome' about this, and that I need 'help' (they are sneery in the extreme about MH issues, I have severe anxiety and panic attacks). My whole teenage years were high conflict and my father hit me round the face as old as 17. But it was normal in those days, I'm told.
My problems are current though, and I'm having a bit of a mini breakdown at the moment. I'm not sure what to do. In adulthood, I've managed to pretend we all got on, although I've had various problems along the way, which I won't go into, for brevity. I Was getting on well with my dad, and pretending to get on with my mum - she's hyper critical, draining to talk to, never seems pleased with me (and I have gone from being a rebellious teenager providing them with everything they could possibly have hoped for in terms of boast worthy Middle class-ness, so she bloody well should be pleased).
In the past 2 years my father has been getting it in his head that I've been 'distancing myself and the children' from them. It is delusional in the extreme, we see them pretty regularly, all festivities etc. in the past 2 years he's had a number of quite nasty, angry outbursts at me, and it has upset me enormously each time, for many months, ruined several significant occasions. He wants to see me constantly, and I feel stifled and pestered and stressed. If I don't comply immediately, he's sarcastic and unpleasant (but denies it). post Brexit, I was too upset to call them straight away because I knew it would be difficult (we voted differently). When I did, they put me on speakerphone, and were really quite unpleasant, mocking me, berating me for not caring about them, 'inviting' me to their house at short notice then when I said I couldnt , sneering sarcastically and saying I don't care about them, then making out I was hysterical and mentally ill. They ignored me for a week, then my father texted me and 'invited' me to their house again. I decided I needed to stand up to him and set some boundaries, for the first time ever. I said I couldnt see him at the moment because I was upset at how they'd been on the phone. We exchanged a lot of texts in which he said I'd been 'distancing myself' 'depriving them of grand children' 'damaging the grandchildren' etc, and generally patronising me and making out I had problems. And tried to meet up again. I said no, and tried to explain by text why I was upset. He denied everything, pretended nothing untoward had happened over the last 2 years, and he 'didn't see it like that'. Said if I won't see him, 'for the sake of the grandchildren' he and my mother wanted to take the children out on their own next week on some trip. I found it very controlling. A bit scary. Like I can never, ever have any respite from it. I told him I needed him to understand how I felt, to stop guilt tripping me, respect the fact that I'm an adult. He hasn't replied. I find them both very controlling. I really want space. But they have this weird power to upset me and make me feel like I'm mad / horrible / weird / wrong about everything. I'm very very depressed and very upset.
My question is this: for the sake of the children, do I need to let them take them for this trip? If I dont, am I damaging them? Will it make them more angry and therefore me more depressed and full of self doubt? I feel like I'm to blame and it's all my fault and if I could just do what they want it'd be fine . I just want to feel ok and bring up my children happily and safely. I have zero confidence (despite having a senior professional job). No one knows what an emotional wreck I am.

No, you do not need to let your children spend time with their abusive, belligerent, disrespectful grandparents. You are protecting and helping your children by limiting their contact with them. Spending time with people like that is not fun, it's disturbing and traumatic even if nothing obvious is done.

Of course your parents are telling you otherwise. It's another stick to beat you with. Ignore them. Be proud of yourself. You're being a better parent to your children than yours were to you.

You don't deserve any of the abuse you've been subjected to, and you feel bad about yourself because of their abuse. The best way to make things better is to limit your exposure to their abuse, and to have appropriate therapy. As I've said elsewhere, I've found CaptainAwkward.com very helpful in working out what to say and how to deal with the sort of nastiness you're being subjected to.

Take heart. You're good.

OntheRise: thank you so much, I can't tell you how much your post meant to me. I really do appreciate it.
I got a text back from my mother (my father having shared my texts) which was really upsetting, full of denial, hurt, and blame. It made me feel like I had actually gone 'through the looking glass' and maybe I'm completely wrong and mad and they're delightful and I've wronged them terribly.
The captain awkward website is excellent. Thanks so much for the recommendation. I haven't found the right bits yet ( I haven't quite got the hang of it yet and found it a bit hard to navigate) but the advice I've read so far is spot on.
Thanks again and best wishes to all.

I'm so glad I helped! It can take some time to get to grips with Captain Awkward, but if you click on the various labels on the right you'll find all sorts of stuff. It's great.

Try not to get upset by your mother's text. My father used to send me really spiteful emails, calling me all sorts of names: I would reply to him at length and explain how and why he was wrong and get terribly upset and it didn't change anything, or help at all. All it did was make him get even more angry with me, and perpetuate the cycle. Now when he emails I just read it if I want to, or sometimes I delete his messages unread, and I remember that he must have real problems to be so angry and spiteful, and I try to feel sorry for him rather than blaming myself. He's the one in the wrong for sending me those emails, just as your mother is in the wrong for writing you such an upsetting text.

You're good. You deserve so much better. Chin up!

Mrsmcmoo I am sorry to read that you are experiencing this. I came on this thread after not posting for a while as I am struggling with a very similar situation involving my child, NMs grandchild.

I have been VERY strict in creating boundaries since she was born 1 year ago. If NM could have her way she would be in my house every day, taking my daughter out without me 3-4 times a week and indeed she has made this clear that is what she expected she would do and initially when told this certainly would not happen, stonewalled me and behaved like a sulking child to me and my husband for a week.

I am pushing back greatly at the moment because her behaviour is becoming more concerning. She is the engulfing type. I am an only child, she typically 'parentifies' and dumped all her problems on me as a child. My Dad left her when I was still a baby and she never worked again. He killed himself when I was 11. I won't forget how she told me, lying casually on her bed, she called me in from my bedroom and simply said 'Your Dad is dead' callous, now I think of it. There was no subtlety, no comforting.

Anyway back to the grandchild situation, the last thing we want as parents is for our children to bear the burden of this kind of behaviour, we know all to well how damaging being the emotional crutch of a narcissist can be and I do stoically believe it is our role as parents to protect them from this, so limiting contact as much as possible is essential.

The problem is, they don't like it, do they? They push back harder, they guilt us, they lead us to believe it is our problem. Except it isn't. Recently, my daughter was in hospital for a seizure/blue episode. NM showed great hysteria at how upset she was (via phone), begged for information. I told her what she needed to know and once we were given the OK and returned home, I asked if she would like to see us (only ever in my controlled environment). I had no response for 14 hours. 1am that night I received a message that she had been on a spa day, she only went because she was SO worried about my daughter and had she not gone, would only have sat around worried all day. When I told her this was not acceptable behaviour and she would not use my daughter as a justification for it again, she flipped. I received a voicemail 'I don't know what your problem is, I don't know why you're so angry, I told you why I went and that's the end of it. Get over it'.

We will never, ever be able to reason with these types of people. It is hurtful to know that they are incapable of understanding things from another's perspective. You will never get a sincere apology.

I am struggling to go NC because of how forceful and invasive emotionally my NM can be and I see great similarities in the stories in this thread. But you can control the environment you see them in, you can restrict it and you can do your best to protect yourself and especially your children.

sadandconfused late answer but my two pennyworth: When you're not devoting a significant portion of your mental and emotional resources to managing your parents, you may find managing yourself much easier. Good luck to you.

Good morning ladies and gents. Good to see you all on here getting things off your chest and also getting some good advice.

Zombeana, you may do well to change your phone number. BUT before you do that, tell your mum in no uncertain terms that you will not put up with her forceful and unacceptable behaviour, that you want no more contact from her and is she does attempt to contact you, then you will phone the police, every single time, and report her for harassment.

People like narcs do not understand or 'get' tact or diplomacy. They literally need the verbal punch in the face to 'get' what you're saying.

Some of the things to expect when dealing with a narc are:

Confrontation expect explosive rages and denial of what you have accused them of.

Confusion They tend to throw unrelated events into a conversation to confuse and silence you. This could be a gift of money or something. It's used to 'buy' your silence about THEIR behaviour so you won't continue with exposing it.
Gaslighting Telling you that they didn't do/say something that YOU clearly remember them doing/saying. This is just to make you question yourself and distrust your own memories. ^Don't allow yourself to be thrown by this tactic^ You need to stay strong and believe in your memories and yourself.
Projection They can and will project their failings onto you and use that as a weapon against you, making out that YOU are the one that is a failure. Step back, look at how pathetic they are and let them get on with it. They'll soon expose themselves for what they are.

All in all, my advice for those dealing with potential narcs, is Let your actions speak louder than their words to others. That way, others, who have been conditioned to see the narc as charming and good, will eventually see the narc for the person they really are. In essence, the narc will eventually shoot themselves in the foot when people start to see right through them.

Anyway, anyone for a ???