If your father left you to die [Trigger warning for addiction/alcoholism added by MNHQ]

[WildeWoman]

By leaving you to die, I mean 'she's an alcoholic, what can you do'.

And you later found out that he may have been complicit in welfare fraud..........

Would you report him?

Thank you, there's not much to admire - I'm still a crabby asshole, I'm just less of a drain on the emergency services these days. As a PP has said, there is no cure, there is only management, and it's every day of your life. The OP knows that, really, but it's less demanding on a poor sense of self to translate and swallow enabling fairytales than it is to crawl out of the hole.

Now that is what you should aspire to be op! Not someone that would stoop as low as to compare her own self destruction to being the same as someone with cancer!

So many for you rivierakid stay strong you are an amazing person to come through it...well done you!

RivieraKid Thank you for sharing. You are so awesome.

The battle to not have the first drink is the main aspect of my brothers alcoholism that I cant understand the psychology of.

I understand his psychology when drinking (all lies to enable drinking). I understand to a lesser degree his remorseful behaviour when sober.

That first drink - is the addictive compulsion physical (like nicotine) or emotional (like overeating)? I know smoking and overeating are so minor in comparison to drinking - but I just don't understand what actually drives the first drink.

My brother (when sober) says the best thing he can do is stay busy, that boredom often triggers the first drink. He can be so, so sure he wants to stay busy so that he doesn't have the first drink, but he still has it. Then we lose him for several weeks.... It's all so sad.

I must admit I am thankfully limited in my experience of alcoholics. Just don't understand such a big lie.

The OPs lie about what her brother said is a tiny, tiny lie.

My brother once claimed he had just been raped and needed £10 wiring to his bank account to enable him to get to the police station.

Like the OP, my brother would often lie about some justifying statement another family member had said. I guess it is a lie based on "he believes me, so should you". Doesn't matter that it is all very simple to check because I can just phone the family member and ask.

Doesn't matter that the alcoholic can be caught out lying. The purpose of the lie is only momentary. To justify their drinking in that moment, for access to the next drink.

I have a mental illness. I did not choose this illness, its part of me and it will always be a part of mine. But I do choose every day whether it defines me or not. I choose to not let it be an excuse to give up on myself, i chose to fight it and not stay in bed like i often want too, i chose to try and keep myself healthy. some days i'm more successful at that than others, but i choose to try.
I had cancer, I didn't choose it. I did however choose to get treatment and accept help and surgery. I chose to not get negative.
All these things are choices. so no, the illness is not a choice. dealing with it, fighting it and taking charge ARE your choice.

for you fate for what you've been /going through

And

for you Great for being so strong

I have namechanged (I hope!) to the name I used when I stopped drinking, here on MN, years ago. I am sadly still struggling with that journey and will be for the rest of my life.
I have read this thread and recognise most of the excuses etc. I will say in my own defence I always knew I was causing myself damage, and still am when I drink. It was my choice to pick up that glass and is also my choice to walk away from it - it is within my gift to stop drinking. No one else's.
The OP shows an astonishing lack of insight, even for the most hardened addict. I understand the upset at the comparisons to serious illnesses, such as dementia and cancer. Both of those are also in my family, and I would never compare alcoholism to either. I agree with PP who say this is the attention seeking narcissistic personality of the OP - whether alcohol caused this, exacerbated it, or had nothing to do with it, we cannot know as we do not know the OP or her medical history. If there is an underlying mental health issue either, we cannot know. Alcoholism is not a disease, nor an illness, it is a behavioral disorder as a PP stated. Exacerbated by many many factors - genetics, family history, social circumstances, availability of alcohol etc.
I call BS on the medical professor brother, I have met many docs on my path, none has ever mentioned "cure" when talking about alcoholism, except to say there isn't one.
I will go against the grain and say I hope this thread is not deleted - it gives a valuable insight into the thinking of an extremely deluded addict and in my humble opinion, it should stay, as a warning, as an insight, and as a thread I will refer myself to again.

Oof, yes the lies. I once claimed I'd been mugged to explain missing money and blood everywhere, in reality, I'd spent the lot on booze then fallen and broken my own nose.

Personally FATE I always find the compulsion to be both physical and emotional. There was a time, just before rehab, when it was purely physical, if I didn't drink the convulsions wouldn't stop (hence, hospitals and making Valium my new best friend). These days, it's emotional, but boy do I understand the boredom thing as well. Emotionally, my brain translates any feeling (I'm sad, I'm happy, I'm angry, I'm bored) as 'I need/deserve a drink because (I'm sad, I'm happy, I'm angry, I'm bored and the drink will make it better. Years of therapy later, it still does that. A mixture of coping mechanism and reward center gone spectacularly wrong.

And hell no smoking and overeating will still kill you that is some serious shit. We just tend to die a lot faster, that's all.

I'd go straight from AA meetings to the pub. I was in rehab three times and in hospital four before I got it together.

Wow! Well done, Riviera Stay cool :)

i got as far as page 5.

OP, i'm an alcoholic. my parents were rich, and alcoholic. i have been divorced twice. i have a child who had to leave my care to live with her dad as i couldn't keep her safe. i have, if you want them, a laundry list of other diagnoses related to my mental health.

i am coming up on 2 years sober. it's fucking hard work, and part of it is accepting my previous behaviour. i was abused and neglected as a child. my life has been, at times, utter chaos. i have been homeless, jobless, skint - all of it. i drank and i drank and i drank until everything was gone and i was almost dead.

i'll just repeat the part where i said i am sober. i have worked my arse off for it. every drunk i went on, every bender, every disappearing act, every breakdown - it started with me putting a glass or a bottle to my mouth. i just had to stop doing it.

simple. not easy. but doable. for anyone who is still medically aware enough to want to. have a google of wet brain, OP. it's not pretty.

The thread is good because it shows the sheer strength and willpower of those in recovery.

It is also useful to read that the addict's excuses are almost universally the same and a particular addict is no more devious than another and that the friends and family members at the receiving end go through the same and have done nothing to deserve it, despite OP's insistence that some (her father) do deserve what they get and are somehow at fault.

I should say in terms of progression I started drinking heavily at 14 in response to trauma, so my brain had 16 years to rewire itself that way. Your brain does change, it's why recovery is so hard and a life-long thing.

Paxillin's post; The thread is good because it shows the sheer strength and willpower of those in recovery. Well said.

And it also shows the self-delusion in mind of the alcoholic/addict still using.

I will still speak up for a softer landing, though. Circumstances vary - it might well be impossible for family or friends to sort it out. Also, some addicts never ask or won't accept pragmatic help.

Zoe's parents were really rich - 0.1% rich. They could have rented or bought a flat and paid for therapy. They could even have got her a housekeeper for that flat, so she had clean sheets and food at home. Maybe paid for her to finish art school. It still might not have worked (Amy Winehouse, Paula Yates) but it could have done. She was motivated.

A few others in our group had patiently supportive wives/husbands. At the time, I thought the partners were making a mistake but at least two of them are still sober, still married and still lovely. Most addicts' marriages break down, understandably.

Supporting doesn't equal enabling. The one person who'll try to persuade you it does is your addict! And if you're not a position to keep your addict warm, dry & fed without having your own life damaged, then you're not. It's very sad that there's so little social provision now.

exWife

Simple. Not easy. But doable

Totally, wholeheartedly agree.

This thread is playing on my mind.
I guess OP is reminding me of how determined I was not to stop, back in the bad old days.

There's a reason the first AA step is to admit that we are powerless/helpless. Here's an alcoholic admitting it, and everyone roars "No, you're not! You useless wimp!" Counter denial with denial if you like. It won't get anyone anywhere, just reinforce the frustration on both sides.

GarlicBake said this earlier. It's had me thinking since it was first said.

I don't understand what you are suggesting. Should carers of alcoholics consistently reaffirm that the alcoholic is powerless over their drinking?

I put such a lot of thought (and heartache) into treading the fine line between not giving up on my brother, whilst also not enabling him. Our mantra is always "the only person who will stop your drinking is you". I will be unable to stop my brother drinking. So will our Mum or anyone else. Nothing we say or do will stop him drinking.

"The only person who will stop your drinking is you" is widely accepted. So if in order to stop drinking a drinker first needs to accept that this will only come from within themselves. Does AA not believe this? It doesn't fit with the first step that an alcoholic admits to being powerless over alcohol.

You cannot accept you are powerless and at the same time accept that any change must come from within yourself. If you can action change yourself, then you are not powerless. Surely?

I agree with everything you said garlic.

The problem is if the OP is still drinking and justifying the drinking then she's nothing like Zoe.

What she appears to have wanted is her father to provide a home for her even though she is still a drunk alcoholic. Even though if he is committing welfare fraud of some kind it is likely he may not have had the actual means to rescue her from her drink caused homelessness. Even though she appears to be nowhere near deciding not to drink.

It is not the same as parents with lots of money letting someone who has successfully completed rehab go into a dangerous drug den.

Having read/re read this thread and the only conclusion I can come to is that the OP doesn't want to stop. She likes being drunk to much too stop.

Look at the big picture

She's supposedly been made homeless (although a week ago she talking on here about her partner and dd), nearly died but she still wants to drink. OP is never going to stop.

Most if not all would do everything to turn their life around and be a parent to their child. Instead she would rather look at the bottom of yet another bottle.

I don't think this thread has gone how OP wanted she wanted people to say how bad her dad/parents are for not supporting her. She wanted people to say how good she was for reporting her dad for fraud. Instead she just looks like any other spiteful drunk continuing to abuse her parents.

have a google of wet brain, OP. it's not pretty.

I can confirm that. My relative was diagnosed with wet brain last year. It's definitely not pretty. It has however curbed their drinking.
Mainly because most of the time they don't know their arse from their elbow.

And yes I disagree that an alcoholic is powerless over drinking. What an alcoholic can't change is the fact they are an alcoholic I think and that means they will not be able to stop drinking until they decide to stop as a first measure. No amount of help or support or therapy or anything else will help an alcoholic who hasn't decided to stop to stop IMO.

Not all alcoholics are the same I might add. As someone pointed out and many have demonstrated sober alcoholics are some of the best people around. Drunk alcoholics well... What to say about that?

thanks, FATE, and for what you have been through.
to you all.

OP, I wish you well.

Thanks, Offred, and yes to what you've said.

Fate, I'm sorry you've going through all that - it is very hard. And I'm sorry for giving you brain-ache! I think I was reacting to a flurry of posts along the lines that she has the choice, therefore she's a bad person for choosing it. The discussion's got a lot more nuanced now, especially with amazing posts from recoverers who've seen all the sides of this picture.

Addiction's incredibly powerful - emotionally, mentally and physically manipulative. It's very much like a really bad abusive relationship. It lies to you about yourself and the world around you. It makes & breaks promises. (I've recently failed to stop smoking again, btw.) Also like an abusive relationship, it changes your thinking and warps your values. So, the individual doesn't actually have choice or independence as a non-addicted person does.

On this board, we often try to help a poster see that they are being abused: it's as clear as day to readers, but it can take her years of ever-worsening abuse before she'll come back and say "I see it now". She can't begin the process of ending the relationship until she's accepted the truth that her partner controls her very thoughts.

It doesn't fit with the first step that an alcoholic admits to being powerless over alcohol.

They have to admit that a commonplace substance controls their minds. That they have no agency in their own lives, only illusions of independence. That their choices are not their own. If we hope for someone to look for help in taking charge of themselves, we have to wait for them to really see that they have no control at present.

I hope that explained? I'm sure some other posters will be able to put it better!

Another recovering NCer here.

I had no choice to become an alcoholic, it's pernicious, it sneaks up on you like that, it generally happens when you are young and feels FUN and GREAT and a fucking middle finger to the world. It takes a while before you realise your 'fuck you' has become a 'fuck it all' and then, 'fuck those bastards they don't understand me, they don't understand ME, ME, I'm a precious flower I can't live by their fucking rules', then to 'Fuck them anyway, they never understood me', then to 'Fuck it all'.

I do think there's a central hurt behind addicts, something that drives them on to oblivion, and that, coupled with a genetic and familial disposition can lead to things spiralling out of control. I've seen it time and time again and it's never a linear descent, it's a series of ever deepening and ever lengthening steps that take you to the bottom, I've seen the denial and the desperate attempts at justification, the lies to the self (because it's easier than facing the truth, because when you face the truth, you actually HAVE to make amends for all the havoc you've caused, sometimes it's much easier to forget that in the bottom of another bottle, or baggie or whatever the poison is).

BUT, the ultimate truth is, no matter why you got where you did, you chose to keep on going there, and you knew you kept on choosing to go there because the alternative was too difficult, too unpalatable, too hard. The act of not doing that would have been a FUCKING EFFORT and that effort was too much, because it's always easier to return to the thing that requires nothing from you but perversely takes everything from you.

People do recover from addiction, people do that every day, they go to meetings, they make amends, they find meaning and build bridges.

But only if that's what they really want to do.

When you're in the throes it's VERY difficult to pull yourself out.

But not impossible, there's always that voice that says, 'I don't want this, I don't want this to be my memorial'. ALWAYS.

Find that voice if you want to. It's up to you.