Helping DM come to terms with no contact

[GinThief]

I am hoping you might be able to help me with coping strategies / ideas for my mum.

My sister cut ties with my parents a few years ago. Its now been a year since she went completely no contact.

I see sister once a year due to distance but keep in contact when we can. We've never been close and I am happy with this setup. We both have busy lives.

My mum just cannot accept her daughter's decison, now very depressed & whenever we talk it's "why" "what did I do" etc. I've had the same conversation with my mum at least once a week. It's now making me resent phoning her/putting of calling as it's the same questions everytime.

She's had counselling which didn't really help as all she came away from it was she needed to accept situation which she has said she can't / won't.

I've been sending her magazines, thinking of you cards, taking her out for lunch etc to cheer her up. Deep down I know she doesn't want to see me she wants to see my sister. I can't make that happen so are there any coping tips from other parents who are now no contact with their children? how do I make my mum see there is a whole life out there for her away from her adult children with our own lives?

Speculating over the 'validity' of the OP's sister's NC is pointless and doesn't help the OP with her issue.

"BertrandRussell, I could also say the same for how some posters believe that being a mother gives them special dispensations."

Yes, of course. Which is why I said I was not talking about individuals, but the collective view.

Mind you, it does seem to be fine for mothers to expect special dispensations in all areas until their children are 16. Cf "your child your rules" which is constantly being cited.

toomuchtooold, that was a 'you totally get it' thanks and not a 'whatever' thanks . I just wanted to add, that DD's dad exercising his duty would have caused her more pain.

Is there any reason, OP, why you can't say to your mum:

1. I need to work without distraction, so please don't call me during my 'office' hours (then specify)
2. I am finding it difficult to cope with hearing about the situation between you and my sister. It's not really my business and I don't have any information to give you, so could we just not talk about it? I don't talk about it with her and tbh I'd rather stay out of it.

If she can't at least try with those then that is a problem that's bigger than you think.

(PS not returning calls/emails does work after a while. With my dm if it's trivial or she is trying to get me to agree to something Ive already turned down for good reasons, I ignore.)

I have told mum quite a few times over the last year that I didn't want to talk about my sister when it's come up. Usually end of the week when I've heard it over and over.

I realise now that taking calls when working is not doing me any good. I've been worried about mum so when she calls I feel I should answer. I am going to attempt to not answer and say I'm busy via text then call back in evening.

Thank you for all the replies

My sister is in this position as I went NC with my mother 1 year ago this week.

Just so people understand, the decision to go NC was not an easy one. I endured 41 years of being treated like the shit on her shoe, but nobody would ever see it from the outside as she was such a charmer. I don't remember ever being picked up, hugged, had my hair ruffled, put to bed, read a story, told I was loved. Ever.

Fast forward to when I was 13 and my parents split up. I was doing most of the housework and also cooking and ironing for her, whilst enduring a host of men she was fucking, including a married man. One time I came home to find him in the living room with his wife and daughter and my mum and they were all fighting over him. I had nits, scabies, ringworm, cardboard in my shoes. One of the boyfriends tried to abuse me. I slept with a cupboard wedged up against my bedroom door.

That was all forgotten by my mother when she met my step-father. She re-wrote history and then set about abusing my step-siblings. Screaming in their faces (always when my stepfather was absent) getting them make their own food, when the boy was 11. Eventually sent him off to boarding school.

My two other siblings were treated much better. I was the scapegoat. In 2010 she took my two other siblings on holiday without me, and it was like a family rule that I could be slagged off without any repercussions. I was the target. I didn't do anything wrong. The only time she was ever interested in me as a person was when I achieved something. Two degrees, turned up to both ceremonies lording it when she had done zero to help me get through school. Never once asked me about homework. Refused to go to school to get me free school meals as she clearly couldn't be arsed. I stole food from people at school.

Occasionally she would phone me up to abuse me and belittle me, often that was when I was in work.

To the outsider everything is fine and I am a cruel bitch for going NC. My mother is currently spreading it around the family that I am a mentally ill drug addict and very promiscuous. She's telling people that the last time we spoke I told her that she was a "lazy fat bitch". People believe it. Those people can do one, I don't care. Fuck the fucking lot of them.

If my sibling attempted to get me to speak to this evil sadistic bitch she could do one too. I appreciate her restraint and her respect for my choices. She's getting it in the neck now mind, a scapegoat once departed leaves a void. Beware OP!

Isetan - yy.

We don't have the sister's side of this. My parents cut off contact with me (my crime was refusing, despite huge amounts of pressure, to leave my perfectly lovely and eminently suitable dp, who has now been my dh for 15 happy years) and my mother cried that it was like a bereavement. My siblings would probably vehemently deny that my parents are toxic.

I tried to restore a relationship with my parents when my first 2 dc came along - all the effort coming from me - but threw in the towel and, yes, went nc whn it became clear that I was expected to visit them without dh forever more and effectively pretend he didn't exist because they refused to meet him. By the time they were prepared to, very grudgingly, it was too late, I had been through too much and the emotional cost was too high.

I can only imagine what they tell people about me. They have no awareness whatsoever that their behaviour was anything other than their right as parents.

Reasons for going NC seem to vary from unbearable abuse down a spectrum . I would want to know WHY if it happened to me. I wonder what happens if the person who 'goes NC' suddenly finds they really need the help of the one who s/he was shunning? Do they then reverse and apologise and explain WHY and expect to be taken in and helped?

I haven't been able to have a relationship with my M for about 15/16 years. I needed to step away from her for my own health and in order to be able to bring my DDs up without her poison affecting that. I have two DBs, and we are all in agreement about our M, though they and their wives and DCs are still putting up with her destructive and harmful behaviour, believe me she is unstoppable.

I'm afraid my withdrawal has put my lovely DBs in your position OP. Luckily they respect my choice, and I respect theirs. But every so often they ring me for advice about how to deal with her, and every now and then she has phases of going on and on at them about me and what I've done. Now, I think they say to her that they can't help her with it, don't want to keep on hearing about it etc.

I did what I did to save myself, but I'm very sorry my DBs are left to deal with her. I'm also very sorry that my M is unable to understand any of this due to her personality and her inability to take any responsibility for any of her behaviour. She has ruined things for herself and for that I'm very sad indeed. I'm afraid none of her relationships are what she wants, but this is because she trays people so so badly, especially her own family. She actually believes she can behave however she wants towards her own children because we are hers.

What would happen if you explained to your mum about not ringing you when you're working and not going on about your sis. If you explained things to her, how it makes you feel, would she care? Or is she mainly concerned with herself, and what she thinks her children should be doing for her? Does she care what you are feeling?

It's like the way some herd animals sideline members once their biological role has been fulfilled.

Yes, this. If we lost a 5yo child in the way op's mother has, everyone would understand the savage agony of that (though would still, no doubt, assume she 'must have done something' for it to happen - probably bcs most are terrified it could happen to them and have to assume she deserved it somehow or it wouldn't, couldn't possibly, surely, have happened). Yet the agony is much the same regardless how old the 'child' is.

Yet this woman, op'smother, is recommended to 'go to the cinema, join some clubs'. She is no longer viable in any sense, put out to pasture: you've done your job [badly! I will do it better!], run along now, shut up, do some knitting or something but be invisible - you are no longer required. Those fairy tales of the older woman shafting the younger woman are the wrong way around. How the older mother/woman is despised in our culture, not just by men but by women: move over grandma, my turn now (to dictate like a martinet). This is a narrative that pumps largely unchecked, indeed encouraged: it is the younger woman's RIGHT after all.

Just to be clear: there are times when nc is the only recourse because the parent in question is toxic and therefore extremely damaging. I fully support that. But imo an awful lot jump on this bandwagon and push it through without addressing their own stuff, chucking their parent away like trash. So convenient to blame a parent; a right of passage to adulthood to carry our own weight and stop blaming our parents [excluding bona fide toxic parenting - which, incidentally, I have had my fair share of].

"I wonder what happens if the person who 'goes NC' suddenly finds they really need the help of the one who s/he was shunning"

No they do not and no such people were never really "helped" by their parents either. Why can't some people accept or realise that if a person chooses to go no contact they do so both of their own free will and often after suffering much heartache themselves over many years?. Why is it that a person's free choice to do so can be so denigrated by others who really have not the first idea of what it is really like to be a part of an emotionally unhealthy and dysfunctional family structure, what about the rights of the person to make such a choice in the first place?. OPs family of origin may look "normal" to some of those on the outside but things are not often what they seem.

I would like to hear the other side of the story from OPs sister but that will likely remain untold.

"Why can't some people accept or realise that if a person chooses to go no contact they do so both of their own free will and often after suffering much heartache themselves over many years?"

I am perfectly prepared to accept this. What I am not prepared to accept is that it is always 100% the parent's fault, and that the parent has no right to grieve. I also am not prepared to accept that because another adult is our parent, we have a free pass to treat them any way we like, without even the minimum consideration we would show a passing acquaintance.

"So convenient to blame a parent; a right of passage to adulthood to carry our own weight and stop blaming our parents [excluding bona fide toxic parenting - which, incidentally, I have had my fair share of]."

Toxic parenting doesn't stop when you get to adulthood. If only. So what then? I'm not responsible for that any more than when I was a kid. I take full responsibility for all my adult choices but I'm not taking responsibility for hers.

There are enough reasons to go NC with a parent. I wonder if some people ever had a glimpse of a toxic childhood. It leaves scars long into adulthood and sometimes the only way to protect a healed soul is NC.

My mother has no right to grieve. If she pulled that crap on a kid these days social services would have a field day. So BertrandRussell you are wrong. I've never hurt my mother intentionally and I wish I could say the same about her.

We have not heard even 1 side of this NC tale- as we do not even have the S's version of WHY. Yet many of the pps assume it must be the M's fault. Springy 's situating this disturbingly - on MN- frequent tale in the overall patriarchal domination of women is illuminating . Those who are dominated pass it on to those they are allowed to pass it on to. The old comedian mil routine is now extended to mothers who are older. They get dumped by Hs who marry a new younger version, and are dumped on by Ds who think they no longer need them. Is it mainly Ds who do this NC cruelty - or do an equal # of Ss , encouraged by their Ws, do it too? I again acknowledge that there are very clear examples when NC is necessary- but there has been no evidence of that here. So the negative assumptions blaming the M are just that- assumptions. Women are 'allowed' to do this because it suits men's divide and rule purposes. Wives are much more easily controlled if they are alienated from their mothers. And yes i def think that some of the Ds who NC their Ms will turn up on their Ms doorstep with their cc when their Hs dump them. And i expect that their Ms will forgive them and take them in.

Bertrand Russell is wrong in your case WashedUp.

I don't think she is wrong otherwise.

I think a lot of us with young babies and young children do not have any idea that the love a parent feels for her 20/30/40/50/60 year old "child" can be just as strong and is just as valid.

Springy it was me who suggested trips out. This wasn't meant to fob her off, rather to make some quality time so that the experience is positive for the OP and her mum.

The OP is not the right person to bear the weight of her mother's grief - she is too involved and can't give her mother the help she craves without feeling compromised.

Sounds like BertrandRussell was generalising to me, but I get your point. Unless you've been through a situation like this you have no idea that what you're dealing with is not love or anything remotely like it. If you feel love for your child then you do not have a personality disorder. People telling me I must be to blame in part is a huge kick in the teeth. It is not easy saying goodbye to a parent. If people think I want this they are nuts. I wanted a mother and I didn't get one. I also find the idea that if you've been abused you should pick yourself up off the floor age 18 and get on with it very distasteful. Life's not that easy.

These situations are complicated.
I don't like the assumption that all parents whose adult children are NC with them are raging narcissists who are totally incapable of change. I don't like it when assumptions about how a parent will behave are made on that basis.
Sometimes it is the case that the parent is totally self-centered-sometimes it isn't.

Sometimes the parent is a flawed human being who has fucked some things up but still loves their child, would be willing to try to change and to hear their child's concerns if only they would communicate. They may be gutted that their child is upset and not know what to do.
Sometimes the adult child is going through a difficult time and needs space to work things out. Sometimes an in-law is exerting an influence. Sometimes a parental divorce has left bitterness.

There does seem to be a great deal of generalisation about these very painful situations on Mumsnet and some posts maintaining that this parent is going on about the situation for attention are cruel.

It is completely normal to feel very upset at loosing contact with children and grandchildren but ,as with coping with bereavement, its best to be careful of wearing down anyone trying to be supportive.

As M48 says all situations are different.

The posters handing out blanket advice based on flimsy information can be dangerous as can people who assume everyone's situation is the same as their own.

Yes there are uncaring, neglectful, hateful parents and NC would be the only way to go for their children. (I don't suppose those parents would actually feel much genuine upset about it).
I wonder what mumsnet will look like in 20 years time when there are more MILs etc posting.

Yes I've had a glimpse of a toxic childhood - my own. Scars never fully heal imo.

It's very hard not to project into this situation, I think. But I know what a toxic childhood/rest-of-life (up to a point) is and I still think many are jumping on the bandwagon. We are a therapised culture and the 'you have the RIGHT' to this or that has got tragically out of hand imo, breeding a narcissistic generation obsessed with ourselves. Genuine toxicity exempted .

I don't think we can know whether the sister's choice is because of a toxic childhood or not - it may be, it may not. It's well known that one sibling can have a very different experience to another within the same family.

But the grief of the abandoned parent, especially if she (in this case) may be flawed but ultimately 'not guilty', as such, is not to be underestimated.

"I think a lot of us with young babies and young children do not have any idea that the love a parent feels for her 20/30/40/50/60 year old "child" can be just as strong and is just as valid."

This. My older daughter is 21. I haven't seen her since September, because she's a language student on her year abroad. Is it easier to spend 3 months not seeing her at all than it would have been when she was 3 years old? Of course, it's natural for one's relationship with a child to be less physically full on as they get older. Do I love her any less than when she was a toddler? Of course not, and I would be just as devastated if I lost her for ever as I would have been then, except that it would not affect my day to day existence in the same way, because our lives are no longer spent together every day anyway.

Of course some people go NC for very good reason with toxic parents, there's no disputing that. But not every parent is the sole cause of any unhappiness or bad behaviour their adult child might experience, and anyone whose child goes NC with them at any age is bound to find it pretty awful to deal with, ESPECIALLY if they are a pretty normal person who thought they had a functional relationship with that child and were proved wrong. A bit more compassion wouldn't come amiss. All you with tiny children, how would you feel when your tiny child grows up, if they went NC with you? That's probably how some of these parents feel, too, though of course there will be some who do indeed deserve it.

the thread belongs to the op. Pps are addressing her or the NC sit in general. If you want us to address you, start your own thread.

Also agree with Imbroglio.
The best the OP can do is to have some enjoyable times with her Mum. Its not fair for the mother to continually impose her grief on her. The mother needs to seek support elsewhere.
It will be tempting for OP's Mum to talk to her about it, as she is the one who really knows the situation, so OP does need to set boundaries-but kindly (the same as she would if her Mum was talking obsessively about a relationship break-up, or even a bereavement).
That isn't to say that the mother isn't genuinely devastated about it all.

What, all of us armarmai? Many pp's are addressing this situ in the round, as often happens on MN. It's worthy of it imo. It's a serious subject and needs addressing. Most posters, while discussing the issue of nc, have also addressed op's situ directly.

Re above, by 'genuine toxicity exempted' I mean 'genuine toxic parenting exempted'