Helping DM come to terms with no contact

[GinThief]

I am hoping you might be able to help me with coping strategies / ideas for my mum.

My sister cut ties with my parents a few years ago. Its now been a year since she went completely no contact.

I see sister once a year due to distance but keep in contact when we can. We've never been close and I am happy with this setup. We both have busy lives.

My mum just cannot accept her daughter's decison, now very depressed & whenever we talk it's "why" "what did I do" etc. I've had the same conversation with my mum at least once a week. It's now making me resent phoning her/putting of calling as it's the same questions everytime.

She's had counselling which didn't really help as all she came away from it was she needed to accept situation which she has said she can't / won't.

I've been sending her magazines, thinking of you cards, taking her out for lunch etc to cheer her up. Deep down I know she doesn't want to see me she wants to see my sister. I can't make that happen so are there any coping tips from other parents who are now no contact with their children? how do I make my mum see there is a whole life out there for her away from her adult children with our own lives?

My brother is NC with my mother which spread to me and my DS (who was 7 - so I'm pretty sure that he hadn't done anything wrong and I know I hadn't) and has now spread through the whole family and extended family to the extent that he didn't come to my grandmothers funeral.

I'm sure we're not perfect, however we are a pretty normal family with normal ups and downs and normal character flaws.

I'm 99.5% certain that his going NC was because his ability to pretend that he is a tortured genius who was mistreated during his childhood which explains his inability to hold down a job at 50 (or even try to) was severely curtailed by us inconveniently knowing the truth. My brother and I were always close and I grew up with him - his childhood wasn't perfect but most of it was far from abusive. He was in touch with me after going NC with my mum, I didn't comment on the issue at all just continued life as normal with him. His daughters agree that him being NC is a combination of us knowing him too well and us not being perfect enough for him.

My mum is also upset from time to time - my niece got married recently and he wasn't there, but she has unwillingly accepted that you can't make an adult do something they don't want to and that he's happy with the way his life is and you just have to hope that one day he will want to be a part of the family again. Though that might very well be too late for my mum and frankly I'm not sure I will ever forgive him for letting my DS down.

It's not always the fault of the parents. I'm slightly amazed that people don;t have the ability to see that it's surely just as likely in a NC situation to be the paretn as the child (or a combination of both) that is at "fault". People who are toxic/unreasonable/narcissictic aren;t more or less so becuase they are a parent or a child. My brother IMVHO is just as toxic to his children (who are the only people he does still see) as he is to my mum and me and my child.

There could be any number of reasons why an adult child goes NC with a parent and it's not by any means always squarely the parent's fault. We are complex beings and can get wires crossed, sometimes - often - projecting, dumping, pain on a parent: it's all your fault!

This is a hugely complex issue and, for all the people who legitimately go nc with a parent, there are many who can take the easy way out. I am astounded at your pronouncements, Vulcan, and have to at least wonder how old your children are that you draw the conclusion children are entirely a product of their parenting. This is absurd. Children are their own people, 1, with myriad influences entirely separate from their parent's influence - particularly during eg the teen+ years when these influences carry much more weight than the influence of a parent as the 'child' embarks on separating from their parent; a healthy developmental stage which can easily go too far. Eg.

The chances are your mother will never fully recover. Losing a child in this way is akin to a bereavement (in which case it is not 'self-indulgent' or 'whiney' at so early a stage) with the added agony that recognition and support is thin on the ground, unlike a real bereavement. Add to that the judgement that is so close to the surface (what did she do/she must have done something/this would never happen to me bcs I am a Good Parent) and she is not only facing one of the most agonising losses but she is judged and abandoned too.

Not that you're done that. You've stood by her and been very kind - particularly when she talks about mothers and daughters shopping together when she has a daughter right there: you . You could definitely point this out to her but be prepared for it not to register fully: at a year in she will be 6' under with grief. This is hard for you.

As with bereavement she will never 'get over it' but, hopefully, she will learn to live with it. I don't honestly think at this stage you can have much of a role tbh - at the moment you are almost invisible to her (sorry) bcs everything is invisible to her iyswim bcs her grief is so great. She may be desperate for wonder why you haven't intervened and spoken about it to your sister and it is to her credit if she hasn't asked you to do this.

You do need to set some boundaries here though eg the phone calls at home when you are working. Bear in mind she is broken so try not to be harsh (if you can...) but do be firm. Think 'bereavement' if you are tempted to be dismissive or trot out platitudes - it'll probably be some years before she is herself again. Which is hard on you.

You could also speak to a professional about your feelings around this. She is your mother too and that (often complex) relationship you are effectively having to put on hold for the foreseeable. You won't compensate her for losing your sister so don't try - it just is, of itself, a huge and savage loss for her that she is currently blinded by but that has no reflection on you. You arent responsible for her happiness but you have been very kind to her despite this and I hope, once she comes out of the initial dense fog, that registers with her and she can be a mother to you again.

To the posters who are saying op's mother should have 'a serious think about why' how many more whys can she ask than she already is?

There might be very good reasons for one child to go NC and not the other.
Say if one sibling was in a mixed race or homosexual relationship and the parent couldn't/wouldn't accept it.

I think if the constant reminder is causing OP distress, maybe Imbro you could gently remind your DM why your sister is NC

The suggestion that NC is worse than a bereavement is an insult. I do not subscribe to the 'but she's your mum' rationale, that you should accept bullshit just because the bullshitter gave birth to you.

OP, you are not a mediator, therapist or NC sister substitute and your mum's level of self absorption by expecting you to act like them, is out of order. There are two seperate issues here, the lack of relationship between your sister and your mum and the relationship between you and your mum, the former is not your responsibility. Given her level of self absorption, it isn't at all surprising that counselling hasn't benefitted her.

It very much sounds like your mum doesn't respect boundaries and while you've found a way to manage your mums personality that best suits your personality, your sister has chosen one that suits her. Your current plan of reducing contact because of your mothers behaviour is not that far removed from your sister's reaction.

The price of the quiet life you seek, is a continuation of your Mums behaviour and I think you're slowly realising that that price, is too high.

From the position I'm in (sister went NC with me) I would say that going NC is indulgent and shitty, impacting on more than just the two people involved and incredibly hurtful.
Personally unless there has been abuse I think people should be adult enough to maintain a minimal amount of contact.
I feel sorry for the mother, unless there has been more than just personalities clashing.
Being on the receiving end of NC is personally devastating, makes you doubt yourself and sours other relationships.

Noeuf, this is raw for me but I have just had to break contact with my sibling for my own wellbeing, and he doesn't understand it at all. He thinks I HAVE to be in contact, which for him means sitting down for cozy cups of coffee. But I can't do this, because just being in the same room makes me shake. He would beg me to be friends and tell me he loved me but as soon as he had got me where he wanted me he would dismiss everything I had to say, tell me how horrible I am, and belittled me. I found any contact traumatic and disturbing. It took going to a family therapist for him to accept that he needs to leave me alone and that I may NEVER be ready to have a relationship with him. He thinks my behaviour is disgusting, but for my own sake I have to keep away. It's not a decision I've taken lightly at all. In fact I almost needed the family therapist to tell me it's ok.

I think the reason he doesn't 'get' it is because the family system endorses his viewpoint. This makes him a victim too and I am genuinely sad that this has happened but it says it all that he told me he didn't need to go to a counsellor himself because he has no issues. Our family therapy was to fix ME.

No one has a right to a relationship and if someone chooses to go NC that is their prerogative.

I personally think the OP's mother banging on about the NC sister's despite her daughter's request not to, is bordering on abusive and if she isn't careful she could have two NC daughters on her hands.

So that fits into the category of abuse then, not what I'm talking about.
Honestly the impact is massive - sister came and stayed for weeks in the summer and refused to see me or let mum come out with us. Her dc weren't allowed to see me.
So I paid for childcare, mum missed the school stuff, cousin came to see her and was stunned that I couldn't go in.

Great posts from springydaffs and kewcumber. And from noeuf. No doubt there are toxic parents but there are also self obsessed and damaging children.

OPs mum sounds like a normal person with faults like anyone. Who knows why her daughter went NC but it must be so hard for her. And for OP being the remaining daughter but not being "enough' for a grieving mum.

It is odd - quite rightly, there is so much sympathy on Mumsnet for women who are abandoned and whose partners stop contact with them/their children.

But if a child or sibling abandons you - just suck it up, and to feel depressed or traumatised about this just one year on equates to "banging on" about the loss.

My brother gets on my wick enormously but I know he loves me and I love him. We were not close as children (6 years between us) and I find him hard to be with for more than a few hours at a time. It is just because we are very, very different people and he lacks certain social graces. So I see him two or three times a year and speak to him on the phone for 15 minutes every other month or so. No one said having lifelong relationships with other adults is easy!

This thread made me think of my best friend yesterday. She is incredibly close to her Mum, adores her, but her Mum stayed in a relationship with her father, a cold and emotionally abusive alcoholic until he died. Undoubtedly that damaged my friend and her two sisters. And yet still she loves her ... I wonder why none of them "went NC" with her.

Why is the suggestion that someone cutting off all ties with you is worse than a bereavement an insult?

Vulcan, I doubt my SIL blames my MIL for staying with her abusive father since (as I said) MIL kicked him out. And since she was in daily contact with MIL and would happily have continued that way if MIL had cut granddaughter off as asked I really doubt that's the issue.

I don't think it's healthy for anyone to be absolved of all responsibility for appropriate behaviour. We are none of us responsible for anyone else's happiness. However, you acknowledge the impact of your behaviour. If, for example, my husband left me that's entirely his right - but it wouldn't make me wrong or pathetic if it hurt.

And being actively spiteful to your parent (which SIL was) cannot be excused because they are your parent. In fact, being cruel to someone who has to take it because of your relationship is a special kind of nasty

Maybe because losing a child to death is so permanent and so life-wrecking.

Until a child actually dies, there's always the knowledge that at least they are out there and hopefully happy - much as it hurts you.

Not quite the same, but perhaps close enough to be able to be helpful a bit, regarding the loss of parents through NC and through Death:

I've lost a parent to death at 11 and another to NC (his choice, his 2nd wife doesn't like me at all). Both hurt profoundly and intensely but in different ways. With death you know YOU weren't rejected. The death was just fucking awful bad luck. Your parent loved you and wanted to stay with you. But the loss is excruciating. Something is missing that shouldn't be. The world tilts on its axis and is never quite right again.

With rejection (NC) the pain is more complex, more drawn out. You want to change to be what they want to be, so you can have a relationship again. You want their love and company, which is still in the world but not directed towards you. You'd give so much to see them but you are powerless, it's completely out of your control. You're left bereft, but they are living so the wound still suppurates ... Until in the end you have to face it that things will - never - be the same, and you have to let the person go and lead your own life as best you can. It will never fully heal, but you can go on and enjoy life. And .... there are other people to love too; the Mum here does have the OP!

Both hurt intensely, but in different ways. To say one is worse than another - no. I don't think anyone can judge that.

In this case the mother is hard work, the OP says that a lot of bad arguments happened. You can't say 'she should just get over them' because you don't know what was said during them; some things cannot be forgiven. Others need time to fade away.

(answer to M48294Y sorry)

M48294Y the difference between a father abandoning his family (i.e. leaving and having no contact with the kids despite them wanting it, not paying maintenance, or both) and an adult child deciding not to be in contact with an adult parent is that in the first case the father has a duty of care to his children and in the second case everyone is an adult and nobody has a duty of care to anyone else.

No one should be forced into having a relationship and I say this as a child abandoned by her father and as a mother of a child, abandoned by her father.

The question isn't whether the sister was justified in going NC (that's the OP's sister's choice) but what the OP can do to stop her mother poisoning their relationship, by not accepting that she doesn't want it to be the only topic of conversation banging on. I didn't say that the OP's mum is not entitled to be hurt and confused but it doesn't entitle her to emotionally dump all over her other daughter, especially when the OP has asked her not to.

In respect to your question OP, coping is a choice and there's not a lot you can do if your mother isn't ready, or chooses to cope in a manner that negatively impacts your relationship with her. Your responsibility begins and ends with, deciding how much of her behaviour you want to expose yourself to and you are allowed to set limits.

I've been bereaved and I've been rejected by my family (forced into role of scapegoat), and I would say that the bereavement was awful but I never felt as eviscerated as I did when the family turned on me. Maybe because it was a group effort, which left me in the wilderness.

We'll never know the ins and outs of someone else's situation but its to the OPs credit that she is supporting her mum and leaving her sister to make her own choice without being judgemental about it.

This is (to side track slightly- sorry) a fascinating if slightly disturbing aspect of mumsnetthink.(By which I mean not the way individual members thing! but the overall impression of what the site, as the sum of its members appears to think) Once a parent- well, usually a mother- has raised a child to independence, then they no longer have a role (except as sin eater) or are worthy of consideration or allowed opinions or preferences. It's like the way some herd animals sideline members once their biological role has been fulfilled. If there are any scraps left from the kill then they can skulk in for them when everyone else has finished. And be thankful.

I don't think, actually, that most people act this way in real life. I wonder whether the anonymous "herd" of Mumsnet encourages atavistic herd behaviour.

Thanks toomuchtooold but the reality is that my DD's dad is a selfish coward. If he were still in contact, I suspect that the mind fuckery that would accompany his cowardice and selfishness, would be more damaging than his absence. So in our case, the price of DD's dad exercising his 'duty' would be too high.

No Bertrand,the first person who ever said to me that I didn't owe my mother a relationship was a therapist, and believe me when I say it came as a massive relief.

I haven't seen any evidence of groupthink on Mumsnet on the subject of adult children and parents and I think you can quite clearly see this on this actual thread where there has been a spread of opinion.

I think the pain can be mutual. No doubt many parents feel very unhappy when their children have little or no contact with them.

But I really did spend years doing my best to be a 'good' daughter. I also felt that I needed to give my own daughter regular opportunity to see her grandparents.

Things began to break down after my father died. I suppose that freed me up to look at the family history. And my own daughter's mid and late teens brought memories flooding back.

I had expected that after my father died my mother would apologise for having failed to look after me and protect me, saying that she'd felt unable to stand up for me. This never happened. I expected she would thank me for having sat by my father in the last 24 hours of his life to ensure that he didn't die alone. She never uttered a word of thanks, or asked me what it felt like to have witnessed his death.

Some of us really do get to the point where we've had enough. (Though I am in intermittent contact with my elderly mother, and would step in if she were ill or in any other kind of difficulty.)

BertrandRussell, I could also say the same for how some posters believe that being a mother gives them special dispensations.

Ah no I totally agree Isetan. I didn't mean to imply you or your DD have any duty to be in contact with him.

Completely agree with your observation bertrandrussell. On the one hand we as mothers of (mainly) non-adult children are entitled on this site to be endlessly demanding and entitled ("Your child your rules" etc) and are perfectly entitled to become borderline obsessive about doing things "right". No one visiting new baby for months because new parent says so, focusing obsessively on breastfeeding, weaning, schooling - all that. No detail is too small and we endlessly talk about what we want for our children and they come first in everything. This is never described as needy or demanding although very often it's more about the parent's identity than it is about the needs of the child.

Then as soon as they are grown up we have to be prepared to have zero involvement with them otherwise we are demanding and difficult. We buy a toddler grandchild a chocolate advent calendar and the outrage is enormous because of "your child your rules". We suddenly are not allowed to expect anything - even courtesy - otherwise we are needy. And if we become a mother in law, then lordy, then we really are in trouble.

The good news is that most families don't operate according to the MN spirit.

I totally accept that NC is right in some circumstances. But nothing the OP has said about her mother goes beyond the normal bounds of human behaviour as far as I can see - yet the mother has been described by other posters as demanding and not respecting boundaries and therefore deserving of this outcome. Well, bloody hell. We're all a pita sometimes.

She has undergone a huge trauma - not surprised she is in need of lots of support. As for not respecting boundaries - my mother will often call me at work. She doesn't know what my work life is like and hasn't worked for 30 years. It's annoying. It's not a pathological personality disorder.