Think DD has just destroyed relationship with DH her dad. Final straw.

[Facefacts]

After a long rocky period with DD 17, I thought things were getting better. Again, tonight, DD determined to get her own way. Wanted boyfriend to come over we said no as I had to be away all day and overnight, husband had to leave later as working away. So after I left mid afternoon she has massive argument with poor DH who is already having counselling (partly from previous rocky period as well as other things). She is so unsympathetic and uncaring and verbally very attacking. DH in pieces, DD just continued attack. And flounced off to boyfriends saying would be back for 11. Just arriving back now. Refused lift back and DH couldn't face scene if just went to fetch her. He now has two hour drive and has to be up early. He's broken and I'm fuming with her. She has a brilliant social life. Saw boyfriend 2 or 3 times in week. Nightclub Friday and friend stayed over Saturday. Don't know how this is going to go but we have been on edge of throwing her out before for stunts like this. Is this what we have to do to save DH from total breakdown. When she decides she is doing something there is no compromise, no care of the impact on others. It seems the more understanding and caring we are the more she takes. Someone please give me a plan to change this before she throws away a lovely home and family.

Pretty. Yes if she is in a mood where a discussion about what is on her mind turns into "I'm so upset so I have to go here or have this or why can't you pay for that. Don't you care about me don't you want me to have nice things. Don't you want me to have a nice life" If she does that then I'm sorry but that is no longer a heart to heart.

Op sorry to ask again, but what professional input have you had, when it comes to your daughter's difficulties?

Given the history you relate, PDA sounds really improbable, btw. DS has demand avoidant traits when acutely stressed, but not PDA, and in his case the traits were obvious from about 4 or 5. If you had good compliance until she was 14, that doesn't sound like an inherent neuro-developmental problem.

Because from what the OP has told us, the daughter is always being told what she must and mustn't do based on how it makes the father feel. That's exactly what OP is now describing the daughter as apparently doing. Once again, husband's behaviour is understandable because he is so delicate, daughter's behaviour is bad.

Now OP is accusing her daughter, in this horrendous home situation, of wanting attention. Jeez, you think?

Pretty. Yes if she is in a mood where a discussion about what is on her mind turns into "I'm so upset so I have to go here or have this or why can't you pay for that. Don't you care about me don't you want me to have nice things. Don't you want me to have a nice life" If she does that then I'm sorry but that is no longer a heart to heart.

It tells you a lot about what is in her heart.

When my teen DD wants to talk, I drop everything and listen. Even if, during that conversation, she puts on her victim Tshirt. My job is to help her work through that and see things from a different perspective. Not bail out of the conversation because I choose to feel uncomfortable about it.

If that is an example of the poor behaviour you feel that your DD subjects you to, then I do think you're too sensitive to be a mum of a teenage girl - thicker skin is needed.

Sleeponeday and Maryz when younger both DS and DD praised for how lovely and well behaved they were so no need for involvement of CAMHS or school until too late really. CAMHS useless anyhow. DD has been to doctor a few times but won't agree to ask for counselling at doctors or school. Have tried but she needs to agree.

Sheba, with the best will in the world: you are reading words on a screen about a family, as are the people contradicting you with equal force and confidence. You do not know more than that, any more than they do. Yet you are all full-scale attacking, diagnosing and insisting you know the dynamic, and that her father is this and her mother is that and she is a victim, and that you know it as a fact. That's bullshit, and grossly unhelpful. Just as unhelpful as anyone insisting she's a right little madam and her parents need to sling her out.

Some of us have kids with autism. I also have a sibling with autism. It can make for a very stressed family set up if you don't constantly manage everything, and even then, some things cannot be managed. Life when your sibling has acute needs and serious restrictions can be tough, and actually, I think tougher than being the mother, because you have zip all control or ability to try to help or improve or manage it, but even more exposure to the downsides, and social stress and pressure. I don't know if her DD just got fed up with a role as good girl and neurotypical easy kid, and started to react to her family set up. I did, though, so it isn't impossible. But I can't say with confidence, "this is what she is doing!" just because it happened to me. That's projecting, and not any use at all. All any of us can do is ask questions, and try to help.

NONE OF US KNOW. None of us. The OP needs to find some proper, professional, qualified help for her daughter, and she needs support to do it.

Sheba she has clearly said this is not about attention when it turns to requests or even perhaps demands for 'things'. It seems you want to miss interpret her words. If what the OP is saying is true then the daughter turns a heart to heart into a request for 'things'.

There may be something under the surface, maybe the OP can get to the bottom of it. But sadly this situation has maybe left everyone somewhat 'entrenched'. All feeling hurt and unhappy in their own 'corner'.

As Maryz says you need to step out of the box OP, I think.

Maybe OP you can find some way for a heart to heart that is while you are doing something together, something you both enjoy, and just ban all talk of 'buying' this or that. You can have fun or joke, you can have a heart to heart or be silent but just do whatever activity and see where it leads. Could be cooking, horse or bike riding, painting, make over session, keep fit who knows!

I've just remembered an image from the adoption training, a fountain. The jets of water are the behaviour, splashing all over the place, this is fed by the feelings and emotions of the column of water going up in the fountain. But the water comes from a reserve below, which is the needs. If you can work out what the needs are and address them, then this can effect how the child/young person's emotions are and how they feel about themselves and this will affect the behaviour.

However, of course, if there are other behavioural elements going on these need to be taken into consideration too.

And it is not a quick fix.

ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) is similar to PDA but PDA is on the autistic spectrum and ODD is not (as far as I am aware). Have you looked into this?

Facefacts, I get that. Any heart to heart with ds will turn into him trying to manipulate me. We still chat about things, but if I wait and let him approach me or let him start the conversation he feels less pressured and therefore less likely to manipulate.

My 15 yr old ds recently had an ASD assessment. The lady said it's surprisingly common for children, particularly girls, to go unnoticed and compliant until an "event" signals a downturn in coping, and this is when things get out of hand, then of course because the child is older ASD is less likely to be considered because it's assumed it should have been "visible" from a much earlier age. One such event possibility is puberty.
It's well known now that girls are more likely to go undiagnosed because they have better surface social skills and can be very good at hiding their difficulties.

Pretty. That isn't an example of bad behaviour. More than willing to listen. Whenever. Try to talk to her often and she doesn't want to but I keep trying. If it drifts into her pressuring me into trying to get stuff off me though and I can't talk her round from it and back onto feelings then what would you do? Just sit there and continually say no you can't have .. Because... I do care about you but you can't have... I do want you to have a nice life but that doesn't mean I have to agree to...
Honestly. Would you sit there for hours doing that?

CAMHS are pretty poor in a lot of areas - I've actively avoided them after seeing what happened with my mother and sibling. We're very lucky in having a stellar teaching advisory service locally - I self referred to them, as they know autism when they see it, and got a private referral to Daphne Keen at St George's in Tooting, as she also has great expertise. The TAS offer a lot of services - have you one locally?

Currently waiting for CYPS (new name, same thing) to provide art therapy. But could be waiting some time. Other than that, I have avoided them. Our GP is also amazing, though, so have you tried talking to them with your DD present? She can't be happy, surely. That behaviour sounds like someone very, very angry at a basic level.

If what the OP is saying is true then the daughter turns a heart to heart into a request for 'things'.

Is that unusual, though? I'm certainly familiar with it!
What I'm not familiar with is the feelings that that OP describes - feelings of pressure and manipulation.

My DD says she's upset so needs a new phone or a later curfew and I ask her how that will help her feel better. I try and help her describe why she is upset. Of course, sometimes she's trying it on, to get something she wants from me - and then she ends the conversation when she doesn't get what she wants.
But when shes genuinely bothered by something, and is demanding quick fixes like gadgets or nights out, then spending time with her supporting her to work it out, is effective.
The OP doesn't know which it is, or whether she can help, because her own feelings are getting in the way.

Agree with Phil and also girls with ASD present very differently to boys. Girls cope and copy. Puberty floods the system with all kinds of stuff and maybe makes it harder to cope.

Anyway, must go to bed.

Bless you OP and hope you will find some help in all our whitterings! Professional help cannot be beaten. Maybe try and remember some good times, look at some lovely photos from the past, your girl is still there, and you can reach her, but you need help. Get you and DH on the same side together, this painful and pretty negative thread may have some use in galvanising you into action.

I hope one day soon you will be able to tell us things are better. And whenever they are better, whenever they are OK, spot it and notice it, in a nice way, in a way she will appreciate. She is still in there. Night night. ZZZZ

pretty we all have feelings, being a parent doesn't mean you check your soul out at the front door. I think the OP is getting some good advice and I believe she will make it through.

Night all. XXXX

Also agree that this may be unsupported autism. Worth investigating, at least.

Sorry op, x-post.

If it drifts into her pressuring me into trying to get stuff off me though and I can't talk her round from it and back onto feelings then what would you do?

In her mind, the two are linked. By shutting down her talking about what she wants, you are shutting down her talking about her feelings.

Explore it with her. Why does she want a specific item? How does not having it contribute to her unhappiness?
Explore what she's saying, don't dismiss it.

Italian. Can look into both ODD and ASD. More interested in strategies that will work than a diagnosis tbh so will look at anything with similar behaviours. Diagnosis would involve DD going to doctors rather than through school now she is a medical adult so unlikely she would agree to go.

Pretty. I do do that but she has difficulties letting go. Think being bitten by a bull terrier. Like that. So sometimes I do have to exit.

Even if you were to get a diagnosis for your dd, your dh still needs to work on his own reaction, as it seems to me that a lot of what you are dealing with atm is trying to referee between the two of them.

I can't agree with that more strongly. There's a real risk, with a child with issues, that you label the child and stop looking outside that at what you as adults contribute to the dynamic.

DS's behaviour is a great deal better than it used to be, not because he is diagnosed, but because I changed how I handled him, and what was in place for him. I needed to change, if I hoped to see him changing.

Im with you on this one. She may be almost an adult, however i was brought up with it was my parents house their rules. My sister is a bit like this with my mum.

Maryz. DH is getting help with that. Doesn't happen overnight. And sometimes I end up in the middle. But most often I am dealing with DD and she does it to me too so not just DH.

OP, there are three books I've found really useful. None are aimed at autism (I have extra stuff for that) but the strategies and thinking help with all kids, I think. And actually, they work with adults, too, in lots of ways - I was really surprised to see how many of the strategies DH and I instinctively use in our marriage. (Not sure if a grin or a blush emoticon is most appropriate, there!)

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I know very little about ASD,ODD and similar, but I'm guessing that phrases like 'no, you can't' are probably not recommended?

By dismissing your DDs requests without understanding why she is asking for them, she undoubtedly feels controlled. How can you make an informed decision as to whether she would benefit from whatever it is she wants if you don't listen?

Of course, you may not be able to afford what she wants, or it may not be practical - I'm not suggesting you change the outcome, it's about how the message is delivered.
Just acknowledging why it is important to her may make a big difference to her response.

No matter how much freedom you willingly give her and how many things she receives, they may not be as valuable to her as the one thing she is refused.