Provocation therapy/ Counsellor playing devils advocate

[abanico]

Does anyone have any experience of this? Would a counsellor tell you if that's what they were doing?

Perhaps you should back off a bit regarding the looks issue. You are absolutely right that looks matter in society, and that looks are often associated with worth by superficial people (of which there are many).

That said, attractiveness is not necessarily linked to genetic beauty. For example, Helen Mirren is technically not a beautiful woman yet she is enormously attractive and desirable, mainly because of her attitude. I don't think being overweight or being plain are obstacles to being found attractive or desirable.

But as I said, I think the matter here is not the topic of beauty in society. It's your feelings of self-worth and self-esteem. I have no idea what you look like. But what does come across is that you have a very, very low idea of yourself. And even if your are plain and fat, that is what you should work on (and, interestingly, looks actually improve once you believe that you are worthy of love and desire).

Yes, like I said it sounds all a bit self centred, but this was just one example of something that was a bit of a recurring theme. Your self esteem does not improve your looks, and your looks do not improve your self esteem, they are two different things.

But like I said, it's not about my looks, I can't be bothered to get into that. It's about my counsellor's approach.

It started when I was speaking about feeling low and didn't want to live any more. Then (once establishing that I was not about to kill myself that very evening), she asked me, sounding quite confrontational, if I really get no enjoyment out of life. I replied that I never, since seeing her, said I get no enjoyment out of life ever, I just said I feel like I am missing something fundamental. She asked why I think I don't have this fundamental thing, and I said I really don't know (I don't, that's why I am there paying a small fortune every week). Then she asked what can I do to change it, I have to take responsibility and be in control of my own destiny. I felt under attack by this point and said I don't know, I just don't have people who seem to like me enough for whatever reason. Then she said "what, because of your looks?". I felt she was taking the piss because this had come up before, but I had never said "I'm ugly so people don't like me", but she reduced it down to that. And that's when she came out with the comment about changing my looks if they are that bad. The whole thing just made me feel even more shit.

I have never said I don't believe I am worthy of love and desire. My counsellor seems to be unable to see the distinction, that these are two different things. I don't believe I am unloveable, on the contrary, I am a fine woman with plenty to offer. But no one is loving me, so the fact I think I am ok is neither here nor there. I said I feel unloved and undesired. I don't think I am hideous and ugly and (that) fat; I don't think I am beautiful, but not many people are. I wouldn't tell someone I think they are ugly, but plenty of people have felt the need to tell me that's what they think of me, and completely reject me as a person as a result. I think they are twats, but it still hurts. I don't have a low opinion of myself, I think I have loads of plus points.

Argh that still looks like I am going on about feeling like I am ugly. It's really not that causing the problem.

I see now why the poor woman is exasperated...

OP, regardless of anything else, if you are not happy with your counsellor - and she doesn't sound very good - find someone else. Clearly, at the very least, the fit is not good.

Yes, thank you DistanceCall (and everyone). I'll talk it over again and then decide.

When you embarked on this latest of the 'talking therapies' you've engaged in what were you hoping to gain, what have you gained, and what led you to this particular therapist/counsellor?

goddess, that's a good set of questions.

I was feeling what I thought was my lowest. I'd had CBT about a year before, and that therapist recommended that I try something more along these lines and gave me a list of organisations. This one was local to me and one that I could afford, and could offer me the longer term therapy that I needed. I had an assessment with them first, then it was a case of waiting for a counsellor who was available at the times I could do. I had to wait a long time. I tried some other organisations but the waiting lists were even longer. I live in London so it can be very expensive, especially centrally where I work. I don't think this counsellor was bad and I felt, until recently, that I was making progress.

As for what I wanted to achieve, there were a few threads.

I was hoping to get to the bottom of why I felt so shit (I feel like I am getting there)

I wanted to stop repeating patterns that might make me feel worse (I feel like I am getting there with this too - for example, I have ended poor relationships and not engaged in new relationships that were not good - I am much better at spotting red flags and being assertive, for example).

I also hoped I would start feeling better. But this past few weeks I've felt worse. I'm not sure if it's just frustration and unsettling memories bubbling to the surface, or if the therapy isn't working.

"I have never said I don't believe I am worthy of love and desire. My counsellor seems to be unable to see the distinction, that these are two different things. I don't believe I am unloveable, on the contrary, I am a fine woman with plenty to offer. But no one is loving me, so the fact I think I am ok is neither here nor there. I said I feel unloved and undesired."

It sounds as though your counsellor has been pushing you beyond the 'looks' thing. And it sounds to me as though you've started to hit that 'beyond' here. It is a cliche in so many ways, but the 'unloved and undesired' = 'incomplete' equation may be something to explore??

However, I do see and understand your wider point. I do sometimes feel that some counsellors have an attitude of 'the world is quite a reasonable place and the individual can think and work themselves out of the unreasonableness' when for some of us sometimes it really isn't! I've found myself going round and round in circles with therapists who are very focused on quite superficial models of individuated being, where if you just 'think better' you will 'get better'. When I point out that things like class, gender, race that are beyond the individual may place a structuring role in experience and cannot be simply 'thought away' as insignificant, we tend to hit a bit of a sticking point.

To be honest, I haven't yet found a counsellor who I feel comfortable with on this - so I know how you feel!

Thanks shovetheholly, you articulated it far better than I have in 80-odd posts! I agree that no one seems to get where we come from sometimes, which makes me feel like perhaps I should perservere a little longer as I do think the first part of what you said, going beyond, might be true. But then when she comes out with a load of glib nonsense "but he's your dad" comments or whatever, I feel do deflated and like I must be talking a different language.

Having said upthread that you are not white, what ethnicity would you assign to yourself and your counsellor?

With regard to "unsettling memories bubbling to the surface", are these memories of negative childhood experiences or do they relate to a later period in your life?

My counsellor is white, I am mixed ethnicity, so I don't expect her to understand where I am coming from. But you don't have to have experienced something for it to be plausible.

She is also quite attractive and, I imagine, hasn't had anyone actively tell her she is a hideous beast, so I don't expect her to fully understand what that feels like either.

I feel like the unsettling stuff is old and new, and somewhere in between. So maybe it is working but I am just feeling overwhelmed. I don't know.

abanico - . It is so difficult and exhausting when you are making all this effort and NOT being understood. Plus, soul-destroying because one of the push factors towards counselling is often a sense of frustration and hurt at not being 'heard' - so to have that replicated in a therapeutic environment can be devastating.

Why not challenge her on this in a robust and firm but non-aggressive way? I know there is this feeling that you're somehow breaking a bond, but perhaps you're just shattering an illusion the line of questioning she is pursuing is really helpful? And maybe it's not your job to be 'liked' by her or validated by her, but her job to help you to explore some things that aren't working for you in your life?

(As a complete sidenote, maybe doing feminist things to get in touch with your own power and attractiveness in terms of both 'sides' of your mixed ethnicity might help?)

I've become fully engaged with my feminist side, don't you worry! I've been doing plenty on that. I feel that is way more of my identity than my ethnicity is, and it has given me a lot of clarity over the last couple of years.

I will bring up my concerns in the way you suggest, I want to do that before completely calling it a day as otherwise I might just encounter the same thing two years down the line with the next counsellor.

Abanico, you sound cool, I'd be your pal. Is there a WI near you? Might be a good place to hang out & meet new people if the current ones in your life are letting you down.

Come join us n the feminist forum!! It'd be great to have your fire and passion on there

I used to frequent the Feminist forum under another name but I had to quit it cold turkey as it was distracting me from my day job ha.

There are a few WIs near my home and office, but they all clashe with my counselling appointment or other commitments at the moment. I have looked them up before though, and will join if and when I can make it.

You sound like a very assertive and insightful woman to me too. Your counsellor just doesn't sound like the right fit for you now. Maybe she was, and you've now got to a place that is beyond her experience? So maybe she's got you as far as she has the experience to, but actually you need someone who can take you on the next step.

Yes, I was thinking that. Rather like an athlete outgrows a trainer/coach. It's challenging to move on but your therapist should work extensively with you by agreeing a date together some time hence (months) and fully addressing together the transition.

Perhaps you could research different therapies, how they work, what they offer.

We are all agreed, abanico is too smart for her therapist !!

especially if the 'therapist' is a counsellor

Have a look at the BACP site to see what different practitioners offer. The initial session/s are also for you to interview potential therapists: what are their qualifications, for how long did they train, was having extensive therapy themselves part of their training, how long have they been practising, in what areas to do they specialise.

I appreciate we're talking £££ here - though most therapists offer a sliding fee scale, just ask - but some things just do require significant investment. Somehow! Extra p/t job?

So I won't be going to ba GP anytime soon. Yesterday I went this time, the lady was nice but I didn't have my ID, she said just come back today.

Today I go same time and it's a different woman, I say "hi I'm here to register" and she really abruptly says "registration is between 10:30 and 11:30". I say the lady yesterday didn't tell me that, and she really rudely says it's on one of the forms. I say OK and leave. The form says 11:30 -12:30, and the website says you have to have a new patient appointment with a nurse at these times, I didn't realise you can't even drop off a form outside of that hour, and yesterday the receptionist seemed all set to register me until I said I didn't have a gas bill.

I was angry and upset so I went back in to ask again if it's 10:30-11:30, she said yes and I pointed to the form to say she it has a different time and she needs to update it then. She said " oh, thanks".

I work full time, I can't get there from 10:30-11:30. Even if I had realised you can't even drop off a form unless it's the specified hour, I would have taken time off work and turned up at 11:30 to be told I had missed the boat.

I'm now waiting for a train for work and can't stop crying. I feel so stupid and it was such a small thing but the receptionist was so rude and now I am crying like an idiot

I'm so frustrated

I haven't even got a mirror to clean up my face and in five minutes I have to get on a train full of people

I can't stop crying and I'm trying to not have a panic attack. I hate feeling like this

Oh, you poor thing. I'm going to write more in a second but for now try to just focus on something - a bridge, a bench, a seat. Start at the bottom and look at it slowly. Look at all the tiny details in it. And breathe. Keep breathing really deeply and regularly, slowly in and slowly out. Make the breaths just a fraction longer than feels natural.

After a couple of minutes, as you start to get into the rhythm of the breathing, slowly try to relax from your shoulders downwards. Try to imagine each muscle relaxing and a warm feeling moving through you. We are all here with you in spirit, supporting you.