Provocation therapy/ Counsellor playing devils advocate

[abanico]

Does anyone have any experience of this? Would a counsellor tell you if that's what they were doing?

Dear OP, have an un-mumsnetty hug and some

I think your therapist sounds awful and I don't think she's doing you any good. I think you should consider looking for someone else - contact several and ask if you can have a sort of telephone interview.

I know it's horrible to think of going through all that history all over again. But it doesn't sound like you really trust your therapist now, and that's essential for your progress.

When you go to the GPs in the morning, please ask for an emergency appointment. You don't have to tell the receptionist what it's about. Just say it's something that can't wait. Alternatively the GP where you are now, are there other doctors in the same practise? You can usually ask to see someone else. I had a shit GP once and I just used to ring and say "Can I have an appointment please, not with Dr Wanker though" and they'd just fit me in with someone else.

I'm really concerned that you're so low and I hope you can get medical help immediately. I am also aghast that you told your therapist you felt suicidal and that she didn't direct you to primary care services or give you any crisis coping tools. Fucking hell!

The GP will almost certainly suggest meds - please try them. They are not a long term solution but they do take the edge off (although you might need to try a different tablet if you don't notice an improvement after a couple of weeks.)

I firmly believe that nobody is beyond help, as long as you are willing to engage with the right professionals. You can get through this and live the fulfilling life that you deserve

I have contacted the Samaritans they helped briefly but I think I have exhausted that avenue.

She was taking the piss - she has already said before that I dress well and am look attractive, and she thinks I look good so she can't see why anyone would not like me for the way I look. I do not look like Susan Boyle pre-makeover. She was not trying to be helpful, she was trying to make me see that I was being silly for thinking people are turned off by my looks. But I know they do, for things that I cannot change, because people have told me as much.

I do not have any pull towards my dad as a blood parent, I don't even know what the guy looks like. there is no link between us apart from I might feel a tinge of sweet revenge if something terrible befell him, rather than indifference. Interesting that you are believing that this was some sophisticated technique. I may have thought this if she had said something beyond "but he's your dad!", rather than be flabbergasted at me saying yes he is my dad but I have absolutely no bond with him because I do not know him from Adam, or Jerry, or Lewis, or any other man who could also be my dad for all I know or care.

Sophisticated technique? No, I would see it that she was referring to a universal pull towards a blood parent, no more or less.

I don't know if I can get an emergency appointment, you have to have a new patient assessment with a nurse first, and I don't think I can do that until the end of next week. Also, I've tried to get therapy through my GP before, it was poor quality and very limited. I've also had therapy through work, and am now having to pay privately. It's expensive but I have to do it.

"I am also aghast that you told your therapist you felt suicidal and that she didn't direct you to primary care services or give you any crisis coping tools."

I didn't say I was suicidal at first, I said I felt like I didn't have anything to live for, so didn't feel like living. She did probe it further and ask me what my intentions were. I said I haven't decided yet, I'm just feeling at the lowest point. I think they're called ideations. So I think she thought I wasn't at immediate risk, which was a fair assessment at the time. She has always addressed it when I have said I felt like I wanted to be dead, and made it clear if she was concerned and that I might need something else. but it's never been at the point where I've actually looked like I might do something.

I will see how my next appointment goes. Trying to find someone else now will suck. I thought I was gettting somewhere but these last few weeks have felt terrible. But I'm not sure if it's taken me longer than normal to get to the "it has to get worse to get better" point, or if we've just reached an impasse. I am so, so gutted if it's the latter.

But do join the mh board, it's a great place. Peer support always does it for me!

But there is no pull if the parent-child links aren't made in the first place. I guess I just see the idea that there may be a pull as a sophisticated idea!

Have you watched Long Lost Family!

Yes and I think it's a load of faux-sentimental shit a lot of the time. Those people can feel what they like, and it may be that some of them were adopted under difficult circumstances or something like that, but that's not the case for me. I would not cry tears of joy at meeting my disappointment of an absent father who fucked off because he couldn't be bothered. My dad tried to waltz into my life saying he was ready to have a relationship with me now I am a fully grown adult. No thanks. That's all the pull I feel towards him.

Why don't you want to talk about the past?

Because when I do, it never goes anywhere, I get facile responses like "oh but he's your dad" and "oh but you look quite nice, I can't imagine people would say they don't want to talk to you because you look a bit different". I'm open to talking about it but then it still doesn't go anywhere, I just get told that I am reacting wrongly. So if I bring up something more serious about the past, I am doubtful that the therapist will take it seriously - they will say I read the situation wrong, or perhaps it wasn't as bad as I remember, or they are sure my mum loved me as that's what mums do, or whatever.

This is not exclusive to this counsellor. All of them I have had has been like this. I'm open to talking but when my experiences are minimized, or outright not believed, I feel like I am being called a massive liar or an idiot who cannot read a mother's love or something.

The comments she has made regarding your appearance, and your father, are very strange. They are not any kind of technique I've ever heard of.

Honestly, she sounds frustrated. And for a therapist, obviously that's highly unprofessional (at best).

Bad therapy is much, much worse than no therapy.

I know it's frustrating to 'start again' with a new therapist, but you might be amazed to find that just talking about it again from the start with a new person gives you entirely new insights.

But before you start with someone else, ask them what their technique or philosophy is. Then research it and decide if it is what you are looking for.

Good luck, OP.

She says "oh but he's your dad"? WTF???

This woman is no good as a therapist. I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, but someone who says that is seriously incompetent.

You really, really need to find a new therapist. And someone who knows what he/she is doing. This woman sounds like a quack.

I would suggest that you find a therapist rather than a counsellor. From what I understand, many counsellors just don't have the right training and/or attitude to deal with any problems that require something that goes beyond a "commonsense" approach.

I didn't particular resent my dad, but for me he was just a man that I happened to know a bit. One day he died suddenly of a massive heart attack and I was near where he lived, so was involved in the funeral and suchlike, it was so bizarre because everyone was so sympathetic and I really didn't feel any grief at all.

So no, just because someone has the label of father, it does not mean that you are going to care about them.

There are a lot of bad counsellors out there, OP, but suddenly you get a good one and they are worth looking for.

Thank you all for your replies.

I didn't even think there was a difference between a therapist and a counsellor.

I'm so frustrated and upset. I've tried so many things but I am beginning to feel like perhaps everyone else is right and perhaps the problem is me being an emotionally incompetent idiot who pushes people away. I'm so stressed and I can't sleep. I've only slept for three hours, I've never had trouble sleeping before.

Who is 'everyone else' that is telling you those things?

Whoever they are, get away from them and stay away. And if you're telling yourself those things, a good therapist can help you question your negative self-talk.

Your current counselling is not only not working, it's causing harm.

Please consider finding someone new.

It's everyone who is supposed to be a positive, fair, supportive person in life. Family, friends, bosses, partners...

Whenever things go wrong I am blamed with a complete character assassination. Things that are, objectively, not even my fault nor an overreaction on my part.

My relative blows up and yells extremely aggressively at his partner and a guest at a party, when they made lighthearted "ner ner, we won!" comments when my relative lost at a board game. The whole room is silenced and awkward, I feel like the whole thing is horrible and want to leave, I don't want to spend my time in such an atmosphere. So I quietly leave the room and plan to go home, then my partner (ex, whole other story) grabs me at the door telling me I am making a scene and overreacting and I need to learn when people are having a joke and laughing about. This was no joke, I'm not an idiot, a woman nearly being in tears because her partner is shouting at her is not funny. No one was laughing, everyone was mortified. I've been in that position before, even if the rest of the room is happy to pander to my relative's temper and hero worship him once he's said his piece, I am not.

My mum throws a childish tantrum because I didn't look at her when she asked me something as I was untying my shoes, I tell her calmly but assertively she's being unreasonable, then I am being a massive bitch to her and she cries. But she never listens to me- never did when I was younger, never does now. Just says "uh-huh" while clearly ignoring me. I am not allowed to be upset about this.

I get upset because my mum shares my personal medical information with people without thinking I notice - I tell her I am upset but then I am the bitch again, trying to make her feel bad, and she plays the victim.

Partner (ex) is controlling and , i suspect, abusive, I raise my concerns, but it's my fault for not being assertive and drawing boundaries. I become assertive and draw boundaries, then I am apparently being horrible and pushing away someone who loves me. Then I ditch him, and people are horrified because he adores me.

Colleague makes a quip about work, it gets back to the director, who somehow thinks it was me. She calls me into her office, I say calmly "erm, it wasn't me who said that" she doesn't believe me and starts laying into me saying I have a terrible attitude to work, I'm not assertive enough, I'm ungrateful for my life and don't make the most of being a young attractive woman. ()... This was a tiny company so she knew me well and in the two years up to this incident I'd had nothing but praise etc from her and was told I practically keep the company afloat (on my shit salary)... My manager told me not to sorry as none of what the director said was true, she was just letting off steam. I resigned shortly after for a new job, the director said she was upset and worried if it was because of our disagreement.

It just feels like whenever I things go wrong I am the whipping boy for people's feelings and temper, woe betide me if I try to stick up for myself. Everyone else is allowed to get mad now and again and take it out on me, but I'm either over emotional and overreacting if I get upset, or a cold, harsh bitch if I respond assertively. I can't win. And then I am supposed to forgive and forget in the blink of an eye.

I have ditched a these people but now I have no one. No one.

So I am dumping on Mumsnet. Sorry.

I think your therapist sounds awful. The "but he's your dad!" comment is the kind of ignorant, stupid, facile thing that people who have had no experience of troubled family relationships trot out. That a supposed trained therapist said it, beggars belief.

Don't be sorry. Dumping your worries here can sometimes have the best results. I have had some incredible insights from posters on here that have helped me turn a corner.

Not being able to sleep because your mind is racing with your problems is not a good sign. Sleep deprivation will worsen your mental state. Been there and it's horrible. You need to tell this to your GP and you need to tell about the suicudal ideation. This should cause them concern and get you seen asap and without a new patient assessment.

I went to register with the GP on the way to work, but forgot my ID so it couldn't be processed. Doh. The receptionist was lovely though, already light years ahead of the dragons at my last place. I'll go in agakn tomorrow, I have to go to work now, but I will ask if it's possible to be seen asap.

Sorry for typos and incoherent sentences. I strangely don't feel tired even though I've slept 6 hours in 4 days, but clearly my English language skills have suffered.

Just like bad therapy....bad relationships are worse than no relationships.

You've done the right thing in cutting them out of your life. And the fact that you KNOW it's not you being unreasonable in those situations puts you light years ahead of someone who is able to be convinced. They tried, but they could not do it.

You do need to trust your therapist for the therapy to work. It doesn't sound like you trust this one, and there's no shame in looking for a better fit.

But FWIW, I think her comment on your appearance is showing you that just because you believe you must be unattractive, doesn't mean that others do: she was probably using herself as an example of someone who doesn't immediately brand you as unattractive, perhaps so that you could make the connection that other people don't see you the way you fear that they do.

I also suspect that "but he's your dad" was referring to the universal pull towards our parents. To try to chip at your decision not to talk about the past and to keep it all emotionless.

Because if therapy is going to work for you, OP, with any therapist, you need to be able to open up. So by all means find a therapist you feel more comfortable with, but don't go into therapy as a closed book. That will get you nowhere. Those painful and buried emotions need to be dug up and looked at, with a supportive and empathic person there to help you through the process.

Find that person, and be willing to do the excavation work with them.

TheStoic, it took me many, many years and a lot of MN coaching to be able to understand things like gaslighting, FOG, and the fact that people who say they love and care for you can still be batshit if their actions seem to show that they do the opposite of loving and caring for you. It took me a long time to realise that I am not the crazy one (though, oddly, I am the one spending a fortune on therapy. Sod's law...) So now I have no patience for such people and on the one hand feel healthier for it. But now I have absolutely no support network and life is very difficult for me.

RiceCrispie, thank you for your view. That's kind of where I feel I am at the moment, I feel like I want to give her the benefit of the doubt for now but I would rather she was clear, especially when I ask what she is trying to achieve by her odd line of questioning. Because it ends up feeling like she has empathy for everyone in a situation except for me. It might not be her intention to come across this way, but that's what it feels like. I will discuss it next time. I have felt my therapy has been largely supportive if a little slow, but then when I look at times when I have opened up she just doesn't seem to understand where I am coming from. I am willing to explain but then we get to the "I don't believe people would come up to you on the street and tell you that you're fat and ugly, I don't think you're fat and ugly and that's an extremely mean thing for someone to do! That must feel awful!" Yes it feels awful... what do I do about it?

Oh I do feel for you, abanico.

She's questioning your belief that you are unattractive, and you are uncomfortable with that because you have held on to that belief for so long.

It does sound like she empathises with you, from the dialogue you give. But it also sounds like you somehow expect her to agree with you instead - to agree with your belief that you are unattractive, and use that as your starting point for solution-finding. What if she can't, objectively, agree? What if it's this pain-causing belief of yours that needs to budge first, before any solutions can be found?