Provocation therapy/ Counsellor playing devils advocate

[abanico]

Does anyone have any experience of this? Would a counsellor tell you if that's what they were doing?

I don't believe that I am unattractive, people tell me they find me unattractive. No one (except her) tells me they find me attractive. Therefore, it's fair to say that I am not attractive to most people. This is just something I have to accept, it's not a slight on my character if people don't find me attractive, but it hurts when people use their dislike of my looks to put me down. I don't think I am very attractive but that is by the by, I'm not on this earth to look pretty. I don't think telling myself I am beautiful is going to solve the problem of people treating me like shit because I am a bit overweight and have unusual skin and hair, and it makes them feel better about themselves to point this out.

But thank you RiceCrispie, I think you are right and it is not necessarily all lost.

But the thing is I am agreeing with her that it is the other people with the problem, not me. But she is not listening to me when I say it may be their problem, but it is one that happens to me a lot and I am the one to bear the brunt and feel shit about myself afterwards. This is where I am stuck. I can have all the self esteem in the world but it won't mean I get healthy relationships, if people still take the piss out of me just because they feel like it.

It feels like I am a child being bullied at school, and the parents and teachers are just saying "sticks and stones" or "tell them they are being mean, that'll teach them and make them stop and feel sorry for what they did!", or "just hit them back", or "you know, maybe the bully has a horrible life, you should just feel sorry for them". These approaches do not work, it is still the bullied child who feels like shit.

Ah, I see - sorry I'd misunderstood and thought it was your belief, rather than something people have told you (how cruel!).

It sounds to me now like you might enjoy learning some assertiveness techniques: how to respond in a strong but respectful way (respectful to both yourself and others) when people are being unkind. Instead of swallowing it, or hitting back, which are indeed ineffective responses, as you point out.

There might be an in-person assertiveness course near you. Self-defence courses for women may also focus on verbal self-defence, which is the same thing as assertiveness. And if you can't find that kind of option close to you, there are plenty of teach-yourself manuals in bookshops!

I have had quite a lot of therapy over the years. Fortunately I have only had one less than ideal experience. It wasn't horrific but the woman was very different to other therapists I had worked with in the past.

What I struggled with the most was her lack of insight, she just seemed to nod, listen, and say things like - 'how did/does that make you feel' or 'you must have been very hurt by that' and 'I am sorry you had to experience that' etc. There was no deeper analysis on her part or guidance or suggestions as to how I might be able to process what had had happened and why it might have happened - no insights into the deeper dynamics and mechanics of these complex relationships that sometimes fuck you up.

Other therapists I'd worked with clearly had years of training and research and a solid understanding of theory and a bedrock of experience from working as therapists for many years that they could draw on. Their more profound understanding was something they could share with me and that helped me to understand and put my issues into some sort of perspective that I could then build upon. There was never any ambiguity with these therapists, I always understood where they were coming from and I felt comfortable questioning them if I didn't.

I may be wrong but I am getting the sense from your posts that your therapist is maybe a bit like the woman I describe. I am also struck by the fact that you have been with her for two years. I know that in some cases people will retain a psychotherapist for years, but to me a therapeutic relationship should be about identifying the issues and really working on them over a defined period. Now that period may be extended if required but I am not comfortable with an open ended situation. Maybe that's just me and maybe that was suitable for my issues, I appreciate that may not be the case for others.

Anyway, just some thoughts there that I have been mulling over whilst thinking about your situation.

RiceCrispie I will check that out. I've been on assertiveness courses before, mainly through work, and they were cringey nightmares involving lots of roleplay and acting which was bloody awful, mainly because I seem to always have the misfortune to get put on a course with a load of people who love histrionics, and need no training in assertiveness, but rather need to learn to tone down their aggression and bossiness. I like the sound of verbal self-defence though, I will look into this.

Fearandloathing yes, that's kind of how I feel. I know a counsellor is not supposed to give you answers or specific advice, or tell you what you want to hear, but I feel like when I finally get to the crux of something really terrible, all she can say is "Oh that is sad" or "I see how that would be hurful". This isn't helping me, but it's no worse than any other therapy that I've had so maybe this is just how it goes. I don't need someone to pity me. My counsellor is not that much older than me, I guess, she might even be the same age, so she might not be that experienced. But it seems to be this is how things are done, rather than her doing them wrong.

It's a little less than two years, now I think about it, more a year and a half. But when I started, it was open-ended for up to three years, so I am supposedly half way through, and it's normal for this type of therapy as far as I know.

I've just had one therapist and one psychiatrist. They are both very different types, but the one thing they have in common is that they always make me feel as if my feelings are valid ("No wonder you feel that way!"). I also got lots of negative comments from strangers when I was younger and it really got me down. When I mentioned this to the therapist she expressed surprise that people would do such a thing (but more like "How shocking!" rather than real disbelief) and agreed that those comments were very hurtful. For me, that validation is very helpful as I've always felt as if I was complaining about nothing, being too sensitive etc. We then looked into why I felt especially sensitive to those feelings; might it be because I felt unloved / unprotected by my parents? Because I already had low self-esteem and this made me feel even worse?

I'd also think about getting another therapist - but also to think about how you interact with the new one. I may be misunderstanding here but it sounds as if, during the therapy, you are having a lot of negative thoughts which you aren't bringing up; as these negative thoughts are a good illustration of the way your mind works, it may help the therapist to understand what's going on in your head. I know that it can be too fast to react at the time, but you could even bring it up the next time.

Self-esteem doesn't stop people making crap comments, but for some people (such as me) it does help to build up a kind of armour against them so they don't hurt so much. And it can encourage you to end (or learn to avoid) relationships with happiness vampires if you know you deserve someone better.

Thanks raven. She did say, after a good few weeks of her saying "that cannot possibly be true, I don't see how that can happen" about something that I had definitely, definitely experienced, that she was wrong to reject what I was saying. But then she does it again and again. I understand challenging feelings and thought patterns etc, but you can't challenge something that is a fact.

E.g., this isn't something that happened, but just to illustrate my point: I could say I was passed up for promotion, when I think I deserved it, I worked really hard, the person who was promoted is clearly lazy and incompetent but really pally with the hirer. I could be asked why I think I didn't get the promotion, I could say "well maybe it's luck, but it's really unfair because everyone knows the guy who got promoted is a total cock and a terrible employee. I know I am much better, but perhaps it's something to do with the people doing the promoting having some unconscious dislike of me because I am not one of them, I'm not into banter, I don't drink like a fish, I won't go to strip clubs, and they have made some subtle, and some not-so-subtle comments about their dislike of fat people, ethnic minority people and women. So, perhaps I was just unlucky, or perhaps as a slightly fat ethnic minority woman I didn't stand a chance in the first place. Yea I can report it, but really, who gives a toss? You really shoot yourself in the foot, and are made out to be someone with a massive chip on your shoulder. I have no comeback, so I am trying to find out how to deal with my feelings around it instead, and trying to survive the world.

So it feels like, if that were the scenario, the counsellor would just say "oh that's terribly mean of them, it must feel awful, perhaps their mothers don't love them very much? Don't worry, there are plenty of employers in this world who wouldn't treat you like that". Yes, I don't deny any of that is or could be true, but the problem is this is a repeated experience, that keeps happening, through no fault of my own and I don't know how to handle it. I keep changing my tact, getting away from bad people, but it keeps happening. I feel like if she got frustrated at this scenario, my counsellor would just say "well if you think they aren't promoting you because they don't like your size, lose weight. If they don't like you because you don't go to strip clubs, flirt with them and go to strip clubs!" Obviously this is completely stupid as a suggestion, as you shouldn't have to stoop to their level.

So if I tell her, for example, that my mum clearly favoured my brothers over me, what is she going to say? At the moment, it feels like she will say "aw, I'm sure she didn't, any mother would be proud of you!". And then when I try to say actually yes she did, here's a hundred examples, including times when she tried to pacify their tempers with kindly words and hugs, but tell me off and slap me in the face when they had provoked me and provoked me and I eventually cracked... is she going to say perhaps I am remembering it wrong? Perhaps she did treat them the same in secret, but only did it to me in public (that in itself would be shit)? That she probably did love me deep down anyway? Perhaps she was stressed? Perhaps I just remember the bad and not the good? It feels like everything is aimed at saying "aw, I can see you were hurt, but let's think about why they treat you like shit". Which is basically saying they have reasons. I don't care about their reasons or motivations, I just care about how I get on with my life.

I understand that looking at past troubles may help me recognise things, and I am willing to do this, but if it's just "oh that was sad. But he's your dad/she's your mum/maybe the person bullying you is doing so because they're jealous" is completley rejecting my perfectly valid feelings. I'd expect this from a well-meaning but slightly ignorant friend, but it's really frustrating from a counsellor. I will bring this up next time, which can't come soon enough.

This woman is an idiot. Really. It's one thing to question a patient's prejudices and assumptions. It's a completely different thing to say "aw, I'm sure she didn't, any mother would be proud of you!" AND THEN GO ON TO TRY AND JUSTIFY WHY YOUR MOTHER WOULD HURT YOU.

Any good therapist should be able to say "what your mother did to you was terrible".

Honestly she sounds utterly shit. Don't give her any more of your time and money.

To be clear (sorry, I see it's not now), she's not that terrible, thank god. she hasn't actually said that, it's just that I fear that's how the conversation would go. I would quit if that did happen.

I was talking once about when I went to group therapy for teens who struggle to make friends. I was a lovely girl, I just struggled to make friends. This group did not help me to make friends or learn how to socialise. One girl came up to me one day and just said "you're not very fashionable, are you?" then walked off. So I explained how this made me feel, that it was a bizarre comment clearly intended to hurt me, but I tried to brush it off. Then the counsellor was trying to make me see that perhaps this girl was just trying to get my attention and perhaps make a link with me, rather than just make me feel like crap. Erm, no, she was just trying to make me feel like crap because it makes her feel better about herself. I know how that goes, because I had spent my entire school career going through the same shit.

It's like when a kindly dad tells his daughter "aw those boys are only picking on you because they fancy you, one day you'll find a prince". Sometimes you just have to accept that no, sometimes people are just horrible.

at the moment it feels like she will say "aw, I'm sure she didn't, any mother would be proud of you!"

Let's keep this in perspective, folks, this hasn't actually happened; op feels this could happen

I did tell her something about my mum, I can't remember what now, but it wasn't anything that would have sounded nearly as abusive as a slap in the face. We came to the consensus that in that particular scenario, she was being childish, and I was being the adult. And then we came to the consensus that this was how it was throughout my childhood - there were so many expectations and so much pressure on me to be more mature than I was, and I was never given a chance to be the child. Yes, I could see where she was coming from with this. But then what? Then it was kind of left hanging. But it did feel like I was supposed to be seeing things from my mum's point of view. And then when applied to my relationships with people now, it's all about what I can do differently, and I am saying to her I really don't know, I'm not doing anything different from any other normal person.

So I don't think she is totally shit. I think it is partly me (I explain things in writing far better than I do in speech), partly because it's only 50 minutes a week and I forget what we speak about from one week to the next and we never really get to the point, sometimes I may avoid issues...

thank you springydaffs, it was my fault, it wasn't very clear in my garbled text!

No op, ppl don't rtft and go screeching off - easily done ime

So, to be clear. What HAS she said?

Maybe you could try writing something down beforehand, abanico? That n itself can actually be quite helpful!

But then what? Then it was kind of left hanging. But it did feel like I was supposed to be seeing things from my mum's point of view.

I'm not sure there is a "then what" with that kind of therapy - it's just supposed to help you understand what the other person might have been thinking. For me that has been helpful, as I was making all kinds of assumptions coming from my lack of self-esteem: that my mother was nasty by character so had probably passed it on to me, that it was partly my fault as I was horrible. Getting some new insights that did not make me feel bad was enough for me. But it isn't what you need. You're looking for something more practical, perhaps? Maybe you could bring that up? Isn't CBT more practical? Have you tried that?

@Distance - there are some examples on the first page of the thread.

I don't want to be harsh on posters for not reading, they have read, I'm just not being clear what has actually happened and what I fear would happen. You've all been very helpful so far and given me stuff to think about, so thank you.

She has said the thing about people trying to get attention when they are saying/doing hurtful things,

she has said "oh but he's your dad/she's your mum" in response to me feeling like I have lost any respect or empathy for them as a result of their questionable behaviour,

she has said it cannot possibly be true that people don't like me because of my looks and that I must be missing something, even when I have told her about the times when people have said humiliating things about my looks and find it hilarious to put me down

She has said she thinks kindness, intelligence and a fun spirit are good things. I was all of these things as a child, but it was not enough, not even for my own mother. She has said "I am sure it was, anyone would be proud of a daughter like that. being kind and hardworking and well behaved at school is enough!". Well it wasn't for me, no one loved me for being those things, becasue the good stuff was all cancelled out by me being fat. Sure, that was everyone else's fault, particularly adults who should have known better. But saying my mum must have loved me even if she didn't show it is giving my mum far more credit than she deserves.

Saying you're sure people love me now, even though not a single person in the world does, is not helpful, it's just giving me false hope. Sure I may find someone, one day, but I do not currently have anyone who loves me, and never have.

I feel like she thinks I am saying I am unloveable. I am not, I am saying I am unloved.

Yes ravenmum, writing things will be helpful. I've nearly filled a small notebook for this week.

I have tried CBT and it wasn't very helpful. The CBT counsellor herself said it is not enough for me to get practical tools to help me because one day it will all unravel. And to be fair that is exactly what has happened. She has said I need to address the past and all the hurt I have suffered. But perhaps this is what I am doing and am just feeling drained by it.

She said everything I have said she did, except the post of 12:56 - that's just my expectations of what might be said in those cases. She has said things along the lines of the last paragraph of that post, though.

By the sounds of it her comment about people disliking you because of you looks wasn't to ridicule you for even thinking it, but to get you thinking more positively. If people dislike you for your looks they are idiots!! She would have been better to say that she personally think you look great, then perhaps teach you some healthier ways of thinking so you feel better. If I was her I'd have worker on getting you to not give a damn about other people's opinions on your looks and that if you do feel there is an area you want to work on then go for it.

The thing she said about your dad..weird! How can she expect you to like or love s man who was never part of your life. Ridiculous.

I honestly think you need to find a better counsellor, somebody who will teach you to love yourself and heal your pain. It can be done, many like myself have done it and I used self help books as counselling wasn't available to me. Please remember your life can be whatever you want it to be, you won't be stuck depressed for ever.

She does seem reluctant to say other people's actions are terrible even when they are, without question, terrible. Perhaps she wants me to say it out loud, but I assume it's a given that it's terrible, and it's clear I believe it's terrible from what I am saying? But she questions my role in things, what could I have done, what can I do. I don't know, sometimes people are just twats and that is out of my hands.

I know they are idiots, but if a hundred people hate me because of my looks, and a thousand people keep their distance because it's awkward being around someone when one of the hundred people come and take the piss out of me because of my looks, and I am having a hard time finding the 50 people who won't fall into either of these two categories, it's not their problem that they are idiots, it's mine. The idiots just make fun of me and then merrily go about their day.

OP, I'm sorry if I misread what you described in your previous posts.

But just her "oh but she's your mum/he's your dad" comment would be enough to find someone better. It's such a stupid, insensitive, and unhelpful thing to say.

Her remarks about other people's motivations might be true (or not), but that's not the point right now. The point is that what they did harmed you. It's like an abuser who has been abused himself or herself - the fact that the abuser's own abuse might play a role in it doesn't mean that you should put up with it.

She sounds like she is one of the "positive thinking" school. Which, in my view, is crap. You really can't put a positive varnish on everything. You need to acknowledge just how awful a situation is in order to deal with it and get over it.

With the looks thing, I feel like she believes I think I'm ugly, and this is because no one told me I'm beautiful when I grew up. So her telling me I am beautiful now should help, but I won't be fixed until I truly believe I am beautiful.

But she's not listening when I say that's not the problem - whether I think I am attractive is neither here nor there, my true belief is that a person's worth is nothing to do with my appearance. The problem is, harsh as it is for her to accept, some people are viewed as less attractive and less worthy, and this is hard for me to deal with.

She thinks I look fine, so she thinks there must be something else, think think think about it, I say no, there is no ambiguity in the thousand times people have told me I am an ugly cow with no provocation from me, and this is very hard for me to deal with. And then she is frustrated that I can't see another reason why a hundred people would call me a fat ugly cow, but zero people telling me I am attractive or even ok. I say I think that in a lot of cases it's just because hey, they think I'm a fat ugly cow and are amused by telling me this. So she is frustrated, because she doesn't think that can be true, and then says sarcastically "well of you think that's what it is you will have to change your looks". This is really unhelpful. This happened last week. Maybe it was a one off exasperation, but then when I look at the other things maybe it's her approach.

Sorry this is incredible boring and vain, the looks thing was just the first example I could think of with the suspected reverse psychology thing!