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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I have destroyed my own tangled web of confusion

191 replies

spidergurl · 11/10/2015 18:11

WARNING: This is going to be long, so thank you very much to whoever reads all the way through. And please make sure you're comfy before you start ;-)

I (20s) met him (40s, let's call him Tom) last November. We went out together twice and even though I liked him, our chemistry was amazing and the kissing wonderful, I was going through some kind of existential crisis in which I was questioning everything about my life, and I vanished from his. Poor, I know.

In July, I felt I was getting back on track and moved to his part of town. After eight months of zero romance, not even so much as a kiss, I had met another guy who I had very casually started seeing. Yet I sent Tom a message apologising for having disappeared and asked if I could buy him a drink.
I was beginning to feel better about life and I was enjoying getting back into dating. That same night, I went back to his house and slept with him. It was wonderful and I was reminded just how much this guy made me laugh, just how well we clicked. That morning as we were having breakfast, he got a text, which he ignored, then a call, which he ignored, then his doorbell rang, and when he ignored THAT there was the sound of a key in the door. He rushed down to 'sort it out'. Turns out he'd been seeing this married woman (had given her a key to go to the shop and back the week previously and had forgotten she still had it). At this stage I wasn't emotionally involved with him and could offer him some advice and an ear. I asked whether he loved her, and he said 'it's not that simple'.

Our relationship progressed nicely over the next two or three weeks. It was now early August. I was still seeing the other guy, too. Things with both had progressed to the stage where I didn't think it was right to be seeing two men anymore. I spoke to both of them individually about it, and Tom was pissed off that I'd been continuing to see this other guy. Personally I felt that we didn't feel like a couple and it was such early days that there wasn't much wrong with dating other people - especially since there was the married woman scenario, which sort of made me think him a little hypocritical.
From early August to early September, we continued seeing each other twice a week. We loved spending time together, never a dull moment, so in sync with each other. But I should mention that this is set against a backdrop of quite a lot of alcohol consumed (both of us), and very regular cocaine use (him). As soon as I started to feel emotionally involved, I started 'acting up', by which I mean I became oversensitive and started walking off on a regular basis. I suppose deep inside I was insecure about where we stood. Every now and then when his phone would go off near me, I'd instinctively look down and see he'd received a message from the married woman. Obviously I never read the messages, and he reassured me that she'd moved and they were just friends (he did see her at a festival in August, and there was the niggling thing of....a friend who texts at 8 in the morning?), but that coupled with the sometimes offhand way I felt he could be (maybe the coke?) resulted in me storming off for almost no reason fairly often. I just felt unsure and insecure, and like he didn't take me seriously, and I'm not sure why, when he was so tender with me and we had such a good time together. One time for seemingly no good reason, I started crying and said 'I wonder if I made the right decision, to stop seeing that other guy'. I suppose I didn't like the sometimes too casual way he would act with me. After I said that I calmed down, we went to the pub, and he left me there after an hour and wouldn't answer my calls.

In early September, the final straw came. He invited me round to his, I felt he was being a little standoffish and 'lazy' with me, and without warning I jumped out of the bed in the middle of the night and left. As I left I told him I wasn't an app, I didn't want to sit around just being someone's narcissistic mirror, as that's what it sometimes felt like. I left and received a text from him saying he couldn't take the drama, that this was the 6th time I'd done this to him and he couldn't take it anymore. I didn't hear from him for 10 days.

I suppose this would be a good point to mention that I'm starting to realise one of the main problems is that we were viewing 'us' in two different ways. We never spoke about what we were, or had. And I'm starting to think that he saw me as his girlfriend, whereas I was convinced we were just 'seeing' each other (I would have wanted more). I'm not sure why we had these two different views of it, but I think that was one problem. From my perspective, the fact that we rarely met during the day, and that we'd never had a full day together (we'd go out together, have sex, wake up, have breakfast, then one or the other would leave) didn't make me feel like we were in a proper full-on relationship.

The 10 days of silence from him passed. The final day was a Sunday. I had given up hope. I was devastated. I couldn't stop thinking about him and how I'd fucked things up. So I made a really stupid mistake. In a desperate attempt to make myself feel better, I created a Tinder profile on Sunday afternoon. I don't know what I was thinking, I didn't even think I'd use it. I'm sure a lot of women here can relate: my logic was I could dull the pain of one man's rejection with the comfort of another. I don't think I was going to act on it. But I think I had to feel like I was doing something to get control over myself again. I felt heartbroken. That same afternoon, I went out with some friends. In one last final attempt to reach out, I texted him that what we were doing was great, and I just wished he could be there with me to share it. To my total amazement, he replied. He suggested we go to his local for dinner that night.

When I arrived at the pub, he was completely off with me. Talking to anyone but me and actively making me feel uncomfortable (pretending not to hear me, getting me to repeat myself, etc.). I was confused as I thought he wanted to make up. I grit my teeth and did my best to chat away with his mates, who I like. At closing time, he walked me home and we sort of had it out.

He said I had abandonment issues and needed therapy (he has a point). He told me I couldn't just relax without his undivided attention (true, but only because I felt the whole relationship was an insecure environment). He said a lot of other things that resonated with me.

And then: he pulled his phone out his pocket and said "And I saw -". And then stopped. I said "saw what?" and he said it didn't matter. We walked back to his. He said I "scared" him. He said he was sure he was just a transient thing for me. I denied that. The next morning when I got back home, I deleted my Tinder account.

Since that night, one month ago, I took everything he said on board. I started therapy. I tried to completely turn my attitude around and it worked. We've had a month of great times, although I did feel he was slightly more pulled back now, warier. I just thought I would have to regain some trust, and accepted that. It became left up to me to organise all of our meetings. I think he wanted to see me "work for it", if you get me. So I did. We did non-booze related things together. It was brilliant. He said "I adore you" and "I think about you all the time". And I feel, felt, the same. I love every minute I spend with him. He makes me happy. He makes me laugh, he makes me feel supported and protected. This Friday he sent me a text at 11pm inviting me round to his for cocktails, but I was shattered. I suggested we go down to the sea the following day (Saturday). And so yesterday I texted him at 5pm asking if he wanted to meet in an hour. No reply. Two hours later he called, jovial, said he was at the skate park, etc. I was a bit gutted as I thought we'd be going down to the beach together, but invited him to join me and my mates at our local later.

When he arrived at the pub last night, he was clearly off with me. Didn't even come over and greet me. Spoke to everyone but me. Got up from the table when I started a story, you get the idea. I tried to shrug it off and focus on his mates and mine. At closing time, me and my mate went back to his for drinks, but he was still being passive aggressive with me, not communicating, not smiling, despite having invited me back (??). When we got in, I let some little catty aside out, mainly at the frustration of having just spent 6 hours basically being ignored by the man I so care about. He went apeshit. I couldn't even finish a sentence. He was steamrolling all over me. He said it was bullshit how I only asked him to go down to the sea at 5pm, when he'd been waiting all day (I just wanted to go for dusk - I would have thought he'd initiate a text if he wanted to go earlier). He called me manipulative. He called me desperate for male attention (I'm not a flirt, I don't act or dress provocatively at all, so I can only assume he means talking to his mates - which I would have thought any guy would appreciate it). He called me emotionally abusive. Then the real slap came: "And I saw your fucking Tinder profile".
Wow. That profile had been online for 16 hours only, a month ago. I said so he must have been on Tinder too. He said "just keeping tabs on you". We didn't meet online, by the way. I began to feel panic and regret. It was impossible to get him to understand my reasoning for having that profile up. I couldn't get him to understand it had been up there for only 16 hours. He seemed convinced I was sleeping with other men. I told him I hadn't slept with anyone else since July. But he was getting louder and louder and less and less willing to hear me. Finally, he told me to fuck off and all but frog marched me out of his house. He told me to get lost and said he would discuss things another time.

I'm so upset. I feel like I've really fucked this up, but there are so many things I don't understand. I don;t know how to fix it. I tried calling him once this morning (went to voicemail). Then I sent a massive text telling him we needed to have an honest conversation where we get everything out on the table. I said I felt like our relationship had started with mistrust because we were both seeing other people at the start, and we needed to have a frank discussion about everything so we could nip this in the bud instead of always hiding away from it, whether with socialising/drink, or me storming off, or him throwing me out. No reply.

I'm hurt, I don't know what to do now, I can't bear the thought of such good potential going to waste. I haven't felt so in tune with someone in a long time, but what the hell am I going to do about this now?

I needed to write all this down. If you've read this far, thanks again. If you could give me any outsider insight that would be very appreciated. I should point out that I realise the drinking and his drug use are NOT conducive to healthy behaviour - I do know that and it should be something that changes.

Why was he on Tinder? As I said, it was up for 16 hours: that's quite a stroke of luck, isn't it, to log on to Tinder in the small 16-hour window in which it was visible? Why would he wait a full month, holding on to that Tinder profile thing? How could he spend time with me and be tender with me to suddenly lose it over this information he's been guarding? What pisses me off is how he started this fight after a month when I'd really been trying and things were going so well. He may have complained about my walking off in a strop, but his way of completely shutting down (not reply to me) is also very distressing and a little controlling.

Ultimately - do you think I've fucked this up beyond all repair? Obviously you don't know the guy - but what the hell could his POV be? How could he be feeling? Do you think I've behaved badly? Obviously I know I have - I'm just not sure it warrants this explosiveness and 'punishing'. Do you think he feels mistrustful of me? Does he not give a shit? I just can't tell, I don't know what's true anymore.

OP posts:
category12 · 11/10/2015 20:11

Simplest example of his manipulation is him asking you to meet him and then palpably ignoring you the whole time.

turningvioletviolet · 11/10/2015 20:17

I've not had that much drama in my entire (46 years) life let alone in 2 months mundane little life

ShutYerCakeHole · 11/10/2015 20:17

I'm so upset. I feel like I've really fucked this up, but there are so many things I don't understand. I don;t know how to fix it.

You cannot fix it. There was never any potential, the happy stuff you describe at the start was an illusion, you were both on your best behaviour because it was new.

Please, please don't waste any more of your time on this mess, your time is too precious.

Strongly agree with everyone who suggests therapy and time being single. If you sort yourself out now, when someone good comes along you'll recognise them, and you won't fuck it up.
(Not that it sounds like you've singlehandedly fucked this up!)

Walk away now!

leghoul · 11/10/2015 20:19

was his name Phil? Hmm Confused

anyway - you need to detox your life from relationships. scary yes but no validation from other unattainable individuals- will get worse for you otherwise

This sort of 'thing' is toxic to the core though and you'll either need to walk away completely or become immune to getting hurt/able to completely tune it out and somehow he grows up and cleans up and entirely changes his ways and lifestyle - unlikely. Don't waste more energy on this.

spidergurl · 11/10/2015 20:19

Category, yes, I do see that as controlling. In fact the vibe I always strongly got is that it's a way of keeping me in line, putting me in my place. I'm normally pretty chatty and dare I say it, funny, but when he does that it inevitably erodes my confidence over the night. It shouldn't though. And I suppose I see what others mean then when they say he has noted my issues and plays on them. He knows I'm a bit insecure. And then purposefully sets out to aggravate it.

Wow, MN is doing wonders for helping me see clearly!

I'm so grateful that you replied to me, I know it was one hell of a slog to get through. And I know I need to grow up. I'm 28: the wrong side of 25. I'm young but too old to be this young, if you see what I mean.

OP posts:
spidergurl · 11/10/2015 20:21

Oh dear leghoul....no, but my birth father is called Phil and is exactly like this guy (sick I know).

OP posts:
spidergurl · 11/10/2015 20:24

I just hope the therapy can help. Does anyone have any idea of the type I should go for?

The thing is I'm very self aware and conscious of the root problem and patterns, my problem is how do I break the instinctive draw? I understand the reason for it all...but practically speaking, how can I fight my basic attraction to the knobs? How do I force myself to fancy nice guys?

OP posts:
NumbBlaseCold · 11/10/2015 20:29

Psychotherapy/analyst helped me, I can recommend that one.

She asked me questions but I led myself.

I found it illuminating.

The key is finding a good one.

If it is bad at first do not assume it is because it won't work for you, you may just not work well with this one or they may be rubbish.

I think you need to focus on you first and leave men be.

fearandloathinginambridge · 11/10/2015 20:42

I would say look for psychotherapist or someone of that ilk. It's not CBT you need.

Many counsellors offer sliding fee scales which are based on income so look for that.

TimeToMuskUp · 11/10/2015 20:55

Yes, yes to the psychotherapist; mine made the difference between DH and I lasting or falling apart. I was, to put it a little bluntly, a fucking head case when we met. I'd had DS1, split up with his Dad when he was 5 months and had no self-esteem and very little self-worth.

Counselling was difficult so often that I'd dread it at times; almost like picking the scab off every week on a new wound. But it worked. It continues to work. And I have an incredible relationship with a man who respects and values me. I value myself. There is no finer example to set than that of a woman who knows her own worth and refuses to be treated badly. Once you've got that sorted, you'll find someone marvellous and this madness will seem like a whole other life.

sapphirestars · 11/10/2015 22:10

Hi op. You can get free counselling if you go through your gp. I got 21 free sessions if that helps over five months x I had ACT a form of cbt.

MrsPCR · 11/10/2015 22:18

So I think we've established there is no relationship to be saved?

IF he was interested in a proper relationship, a man in his 40s would not want to waste time playing games, if anything you'd be on here worrying if it was all too much too soon.

You said it yourself, you only ever did boozy nights together. Most people have a connection when there's alcohol involved.

So you only ever got drunk together or he did Coke. Is that really what you want to look for in a relationship? Particularly with someone in their 40s who would be eager to settle if that were the case.

He's used you for a shag and a good time. You're single and available, unlike his married woman. He played mind games and was emotionally abusive to you.

There are plenty of nice guys out there, but at the moment I'm unsure you'd trust a nice guy.....

This is way too much drama. You still have plenty of time to find someone. ditch this man. It's going nowhere and never was.

PitilessYank · 12/10/2015 02:37

I read your entire post and I think that he sounds very unsuitable for you. I am not a fan of cocaine, but it seems especially worrisome that a person in his 40s would still be doing it. The involvement with a married woman is a mess.

Are you both drinking a bit too much as well?

I think that sometimes a person with the wrong partner can become a bit unhinged, and this may have happened to you. Try dating men who are not your "type"- you may be pleasantly surprised. It worked for me.

spidergurl · 12/10/2015 09:14

"Are you both drinking a bit too much as well?"

Yes Pitiless, an extraordinary amount of booze. My body feels worn down now as well as my emotions.

And I think you're right re the unhinged thing. Almost unrecognizable.

OP posts:
sleeponeday · 12/10/2015 12:16

Psychotherapy.

You also might want to read a book called, "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker as well as Lundy Bancroft's "Why Does He Do That?" because arseholes tend to use similar methodology. Decent, non-exploitative people don't interact the same way. If the shitty stuff was what was modelled to you as a kid, and you've spend your young adult life reinforcing the acquaintance, then you need to learn how to spot red flags rather than finding them comfortingly, reassuringly familiar. Those books will help you.

Second the fact (and it is a fact, not an opinion) that you need to be single for at least a couple of years while you work on you, and your own life. You are a bit of a confused, vulnerable innocent when it comes to this stuff and that is not going to attract the good guys. To put it mildly.

If it's any help, my own father is a narcissist (not an online diagnosed one, I'm speaking clinical) and my main past involvement was with someone who whether clinically diagnosed or not, was certainly similar. Very charming, pathologically good at lying, exploitative, manipulative, got a kick from "outsmarting" people who loved and trusted him by deceiving them, no remorse. Just very, very bad news. This was after a couple of not-very-nice teenage boyfriends and a very miserable childhood.

I went to university in my early 20s and stayed single the first couple of years. Then I got very drunk around a good friend, a sharp, funny, kind boy, and we hooked up. Been marrried ten years now, together fifteen, two kids. He's the nicest person you could ever meet. Very bright, very responsible (financially, domestically, emotionally) and I still find him more interesting to talk to than just about anyone else I know. Our eldest is a lovely, kind, clever, beautiful kid, and he has autism, which makes him very anxious and stressed. My husband is supportive of DS, supportive of me, just everything you'd hope your husband and best friend to be when you have a child with additional challenges in life - and he adores our daughter, too, who is growing up, unlike me, to have that as her model of what a man should be. It could all fall apart next week - he could get too close to some woman at work and I could be on Mumsnet this time next year posting with an affair heartbreak. There are no guarantees for anyone at all. But you can certainly improve the odds by focusing on a few things.

You ask how you can be attracted to nice men instead of arseholes. But here's the thing: stop wondering about romantic relationships, because right now, you aren't coming across as someone who can have one that is happy. Focus on work, focus on a hobby, focus on being you until you like yourself, and your life, and being single. When I got together with DH I honestly did. I liked the freedom, the sense that my time and thoughts were my own.

Don't focus on being attracted to someone. Focus on what they are like: to you, and to other people. Most importantly: are they kind, even when they don't like someone - or are they vengeful and angry? How are they to waiters in restaurants, and to people who can't give them anything they want - who can't serve a purpose for them? Are they mocking about people behind their backs; do they think rules and laws don't apply to them; can they charm people and appear to do it consciously to get what they want? Nora Ephron once said you should never marry a man you'd not like to be divorced from, and she was completely right, only I would say you shouldn't date him, either. If someone doesn't behave decently as a default setting, avoid them. And you need to be a lot further on with a therapist before you can really tell the woods from the trees. Until then, just stop worrying about a man in your life. Focus on yourself, and the life you can build for yourself. Kick romance into the long grass - you have plenty of time.

stoppingbywoods · 12/10/2015 19:48

I actually read the full OP so I will now comment just for closure Grin

You do sound very immature, troubled, insecure, whatever you want to call it. You know this but I'm not sure if you accept that it's causing you to make choices that will only damage you further. You cannot choose who to go out with when you see nothing wrong with choosing men like this. Or, while you do not see that this bloke's coke habit and married woman thing ruled him out from the beginning.

Yes, I think you would encounter some of these problems in any relationship and you have work to do. But it doesn't matter in this instance because the relationship was screwed from the outset. Unless you want to spend the next thirty years in a skate park taking drugs, you need to start prioritising the function things in life, men included.

I agree that it's very odd he saw your dating profile. If he really was keeping tabs on you, he's controlling and manipulative (given that he wasn't in touch with you at the time and only got in touch when he saw the profile). If he saw it back accident, he's obviously a bit like you are at the moment, with far too many women than is good for him. I suspect that both scenarios are true.

FWIW, you I can see where he was coming from with the texting at 5pm thing. If you refuse an invitation but suggest another one, it's up to you to get in touch before lunchtime (or early afternoon at the very latest) to finalise the arrangement. And why would you go there for dusk?! See this is all very immature :)

Good luck OP. To avoid writing your life up with foolish choices, I suggest that you resign yourself to thinking with your head, not your heart. For a few years minimum. In a few years you will probably want to have a home and a nice non-abusive husband and eventually children. Try and choose someone in the same age bracket as you who is living in a balanced way at the moment. Not a doer-upper.

spidergurl · 13/10/2015 14:02

Stoppingbywoods I know you're right, I know all of you are right, yesterday I felt good and like things might be OK, but now today I'm just - where is he? The last thing he said to me was "I'll talk to you about it some other time". When is that other time? Why have I heard nothing from him since Saturday? Why no reply to the message I sent saying we should get honest with each other? What's the point of this? Am I supposed to take this as he's never going to talk to me again?

OP posts:
Cheesybaps · 13/10/2015 14:37

Why are you giving him all the power? You're sitting here wondering if/when/why you will talk (on his terms), do you think he is giving you this much thought?

To be honest if he chooses never to speak to you again then thank god for that!

With all the advice here, I hope you can get your head around making the decision YOURSELF that having no more contact with the sleazeball would be best for you. No hanging on waiting for him to take control, YOU take control. Tell yourself that you are better than this!

spidergurl · 13/10/2015 15:54

Yes but Cheesybaps: "Why are you giving him all the power? You're sitting here wondering if/when/why you will talk (on his terms), do you think he is giving you this much thought?"

And why the hell shouldn't I want to talk to him! I deserve an explanation. You can't just out of nowhere blow up over a grudge/hurt you've been stewing over in silence for a month and expect the other person to not be wondering WTAF is going on.

At the very minimum I expect a curt text saying: "This is a mess and going nowhere. Let's stop here."

OP posts:
Hissy · 13/10/2015 16:33

You are not going to get an explanation you are satisfied with.

One because he has hooks into you, and you're addicted to seeking approval etc, and 2 because he has "invested" effort in moulding you to the victim he wants you to be, if he has to start again with another one it's going to be a real pita for him to have to pretend to be a nice, normal person.

Which he is decidedly NOT.

Block him, delete his numbers and if possible change yours so there's no going back.

This is one time where head must make the decisions that are unpopular with your heart (and your insecurities)

Hissy · 13/10/2015 16:36

Him blowing up at you is merely a tactic to get you to panic and run to him. It's to feed his insecurity and fear.

The script is, he blows up, you panic, beg him to forgive whatever pile of shite he's convicted you with, and you to promise you'll love and serve him forever and a day, then he knows he has you in deeper and can ramp up to the next level of your obliteration and destruction
This man is your mortal enemy. Make no mistake.

spidergurl · 13/10/2015 16:47

How do you know all this Hissy?

OP posts:
Cheesybaps · 13/10/2015 17:24

You shouldn't want to talk to him because he's a druggie man-child and you for sure deserve better than that.

springydaffs · 13/10/2015 18:23

Immature? What is this? It's such a horrible, judgey word to be using.

God, op, what a mess! It's not going to sort itself out, there will be no closure. He's got you spinning like a top - and he's only just got started. Dread to think...

He insisted you got you into therapy bcs he's following the 'you are mad' abuser's script. You are not mad but you do need to do some big work in therapy. I couldn't help noticing you signed up for therapy and it looked like you thought you were getting sorted in a month. Erm, no. It takes a lot longer than that.

What you two are doing is fake - you are not bringing yourselves to the dynamic at all. Maybe you are sensing he isn't being authentic - he most certainly isn't (coke?) but he has no intention of being, either - but you are also not bringing yourself to the relationship. Both of you are doing the fucked-up dance together. Not only a complete waste of time, zero nutrition, but unbelievably painful and damaging.

Stop it already. Stop the relationship. Busy yourself with getting some real work in therapy under your belt. Get a big chunk of healing going write Eat Pray Love and make a lot of money - sorry, facetious before you even THINK of getting into a relationship.

You have to be brave: delete him. No good will ever come off this, only more and more harm (which you will have to undo in therapy - you already have enough to be going on with).

springydaffs · 13/10/2015 18:29

Also, that fucked-up dance is often extremely seductive and addictive, heady, 'romantic'. All fake ie not the real deal.