Concerns about DD relationship. Not pregnant but has agreed with DP that will abort if it were to happen

[rhapsodyinblues]

I have NC'd for this.

DD is in a stable relationship with Her boyfriend. They are both 23 and met at university. They have been together nearly 2 years. DD has just graduated but is unsure what she wants to do yet and BF has another year to go before graduating. She says she will look for a temporary job until BF graduates.

DP has bought a house jointly with his parents where he and my DD live. There is no mortgage (it's in a northern city). Originally I was going to buy half of the house so my DD and BF would own it jointly but I pulled out at the last minute as their relationship was going through a rocky patch and I had some concerns that BF might be a bit controlling. Also, that my DD should not be tied to a house and a city when she hadn't made any career plans.

There was a big falling out after i effectively threw BF out of my house as he seemed to be upsetting her when she was working for her Finals, although I was reconciled to DD within a couple of days. I met with BF at the graduation and he came to the family meals etc and all seemed to be fine - and still is. BF said I'd got him all wrong and DD is very much in love and is happy that all is well. She comes home a lot and we are close.

I have learned my lesson. I am standing back and will be very careful not to be critical of BF again. However. I am a bit worried about 2 things DD has recently told me. The first is that BF can't possibly be controlling as they have agreed to have an open relationship. The second is that they don't want to start a family right now and DD will have an abortion if she were to become pregnant.

The thing is that DD is a committed vegan. She won't even eat a hen's egg so I can't imagine her opening a conversation along the lines of 'if we have a baby we will abort it'. Is this normal? I can see that couples would discuss whether or not to have a family and when but isn't this a bit unusual? My DD said they'd 'had the talk' as though it were normal. Is it?

Also, because she doesn't want chemicals in her body she is apparently trying to prevent pregnancy through natural methods by taking her temperature etc. I have urged her to opt for a more reliable method and said that I would never judge anyone for having an abortion but that it is a very hard decision. She seemed to take this on board.

However, I am back to worrying again. I know it is not really my business but equally if it all goes wrong with BF she will be relying on us to help and support her and I just hate to see her hurt.

Has anyone else gone through this as I know I may be worrying unnecessarily and I can't discuss this with anyone in RL.

Why doesn't she get the copper coil if she's bothered about 'chemicals in her body'? It's reliable and chemical free.

The more fundamental issue, though (I remember your previous threads) is that her boyfriend is an arsehole. If I were you I'd be doing everything you can to encourage her to make sure she doesn't end up tied to this tosser for life by a mutual child.

Hello rhapsody, you sound a lovely mum and are obviously trying and worried xxxx I was/am in a very similar situation to your dd. I moved for a job and he and Mil bought a house. My name was left off the deeds. My DM, who passed away was always delicately trying to help me see the light in what I have only recently realised is a dreadful relationship and I am having great difficulty. Point is, please carry on being there for your daughter. Just because you don't directly confront or criticise doesn't mean you can't ask her a few straight questions to keep her brain awake. I SO wish my DM was here to support me to leave. One day your dd will thank you for your constancy and presence xxxxxxxxxx

Thank you all for your replies and I am grateful to ARV for sharing her experience and pleased that it had a happy ending.

One of the posters mentioned passivity and I think there is some truth to that. I have told very few people of my concerns in RL, but my aunt in law, whose is a wise woman, said she thought DD might 'need someone to lean on', which is fine if the person you lean on can be trusted to take care of your interests and welfare.

Another poster asked what I had done to teach her this behaviour. I have asked myself this question many times, but her sisters are the opposite - very focused and determined and in no way passive, and nor am I. They describe themselves as 'strong independent women' - their mantra, which they often quote, which DD1 also claims to espouse, but doesn't really 'walk the walk'. DD2 has a boyfriend and this appears to be serious, although it's early days, but the dynamic is totally different. There is no way she would put her life on hold for her boyfriend and there is no way that he would expect her to.

To be fair, it is just under 2 months since DD1 graduated and a lot of young people don't have a career mapped out, especially if they are arts graduates. However, she didn't go to the careers advice centre at uni before she left, which might have given her some pointers. Also, she is an intermediate Cordon Bleu cook (she did a course during her gap year), so could probably find work in catering, but says she can't do this, as she would need to taste the food, which she can't do as she is vegan.

I imagine that this is a critical time for the relationship, in any event. When they were both students, life was mapped out for them, and they knew in which direction they were heading. They both had the same goal of graduating. Not so now, at least not for DD.

There will be a crunch point in another year when BF graduates. My understanding is that his parents were prepared to pay the other 50% of the cost of buying the house after I pulled out (his GPs had given him the 50% for his share), but regard it as an investment, which is fair enough. The house was a good price - the seller picked us for a quick sale as it was a cash purchase - and they will make some profit probably if they sell it. Or they might rent it out. I don't believe that BF or his parents see it as a potential 'matrimonial home'.

The same wise aunt - who is a bit cynical - thinks BF might have targeted DD because she seemed to be from a wealthy background. DD said people in the house at uni, where she met him, had been googling her house on google earth; it is nothing grand but a lot of land and a tennis court and we have a holiday home(not a stealth boast and we have a big mortgage but just to give the full picture). There seems little doubt that the idea of buying the house was his idea and I was expected to pay for it, or at least for half of it.

Initially, I wanted to help and I wanted DD to have a home so I knew she would always have this security, but then I began to have doubts about him and to be worried that she would be tied to the house and to him and that there would be no incentive to find a job and her own way in life. I love my children and want to support them, but also to encourage them to find their own way and to become independent, as DH and I did - we didn't have any handouts from our respective parents. Anyway, I think that if he really loves her, he should love her regardless and that it should not be dependent on her buying half of the property or any future property.

I have paid DD her allowance for a further 3 months and signed over the car to her and paid her motor expenses - tax and insurance and servicing and MOT - for a year, so that she is able to get to any interviews. I also still pay her mobile 'phone contract. She also has some money from the sale of her horse, so about £5,000 in total, which is a bit of a cushion, but I suppose will run out after a while if she doesn't get a job.

My DD, who was to have been a joint owner, now has no say in what happens to the house. She doesn't seem to mind and says it still feels like home. She bought some items on holiday for the house and has taken one of our tvs and some pans etc that I bought for her, as well as her chef's knives. BF and his parents seem to be making all of the decisions about the decor - paint and carpets etc. Originally, DD was quite excited about the colour schemes and was on Pinterest etc but this all seems to have fallen by the wayside.

There are certainly some self esteem issues there, and getting a job would hopefully boost her confidence. As far as I know, BF is encouraging her to get a job - well, he would wouldn't he - last time she came back she took all of her certificates as BF had told her that she needed to have them to apply for a job.

I have not suggested to DD that she is correct not to take the ADs. On the contrary, I suggested that she should see her GP, but she is adamant that she doesn't want to. TBH, she seems like a bit of a lost soul at the moment. She went back yesterday and her parting words were 'I love you. I will be back soon'.

Sorry this is long!

I would be tempted to make sure any money she has is in her own personal account and not in a joint account. The best case scenario would be that she would agree to have you as a co signatory. That way you can monitor how much she is spending on household bills and if she is spending any on furniture or white goods or carpet, etc.

My first thought wrt the car, the allowance, the £5000 and the phone was "What incentive does she have to fend for herself?" However, in the current circumstances, I think having the car is probably a good thing for her. It gives her the potential of independent action, deciding to go somewhere and then going, under her own steam.

Don't cut off her phone. You don't want to create a situation where her BF provides phone service for her and has the power to cut off her service or monitor her phone use, calls made, etc.

But I would not have given her any more of an allowance. She should be able to manage on £5k for a good while. Giving her that sort of a cushion only enables her to live the fantasy of not needing a job.

Did you question whether she really needs her certificates to get a job? I can't understand how this might be necessary in this day of checking references and qualifications by email. What does he want them for? Is he trying to underline the idea that her home is with him? I think you should try to get to the bottom of this business.

I think you should take it as a given that the BF does not love your DD and that whatever feelings he has for her are dysfunctional. This relationship has not brought her happiness and never will. It has actually hobbled her and her helplessness will get worse the longer it goes on. Her childlike behaviour on holiday - needing help finding the loo, etc - shows you how damaging this is for her.

I would not give her another year of this, until BF graduates. I would actively seek to get her home as fast as possible, and maybe shortly after the allowance runs out you can tell her you have no more to give but that if she likes and is finding it hard to make rent and pay bills she can move right back to the comforts of home, rent free, meals provided, and the car too. I feel that allowing her to move back home, with no questions asked I would state that explicitly might encourage her to consider ending it with the BF and allowing her to do so with dignity.

If she was showing interest in the decorating, going on Pinterest, etc. I suspect she thought of the house as her future marital home. I would be very tempted to ask her how she feels "now that it is clear the house will be used to generate income or a profit and will not be your home once it is upgraded enough to be put on the market or rented out" -- I would state that assumption in your question as a fact.

Since she no longer goes on Pinterest to plan decorating, and you have learned that the BF's parents are making decorating decisions, she has possibly already copped on, but unless she has stated to you directly that she has come to this conclusion I would assume she cannot bring herself to say it without loss of face. The more worrying scenario of course is that she is in denial that the house will be sold or rented and that there will come a day when she will have to leave it. If she challenges your assumption I would ask her what her understanding of the situation is. I would ask her to indicate if she shares your assumption about the future of the house.

I had to provide original certificates when I got my new job. I work for a big organisation (household name).

Can her sisters say anything to her? What do they make of the situation?

I have also just got a new job and needed to show originals.

It is nice to wait until her perfect job comes along but most other graduates would have been doing shop/ bar/ temp work while they find that job. I think she needs to focus on getting work so she gets out of the home maker mentality. Some temporary work in a shop or bar might help as she'll be mixing with others of a similar age to socialise with.

So she is a lodger in a house owned by this man and his parents . She is paying rent , a share of the bills and helping them do it up to sell it.

I assume her rent is very low if she's working on their house ?

And she also provides domestic labour for him, and no strings attached sex.

Do you think she's not getting a job because she's spending most of her time on DIY and housework , so she doesn't have time ?

Or because she doesn't feel the need for more money, because you provide for her ?

Or because he prefers to have her at home to service him ?

Or is she living this romantic fantasy that it's their cosy little nest for two and he's her knight in shining armour ? Because from the outside it looks as if she's a lodger who gives him money , sex and keeps house for free.

About the house purchase- we were in a small situation with our DD. her BF has inherited money and she asked us to give her money towards " her share " of the house . This was a bit cheeky as she earns a very good wage ( about £65K) .

We refused to give her the money , but said we ( her parents ) would buy half of the house with her BF. With all the legal paperwork in place etc .

We did this because we didn't think the relationship would last , and that our Dd would walk away and leave him with ( our share of ) the house. And we would have no way of pursuing it if she was the owner and not us .

DD refused , and they ended up buying with a mortgage . Bf put his money into another property altogether . And of course their relationship didn't last . But since DD was the legal owner of half of it, she is having to sort it out, rather than just walk away and leave us with the mess.

She's currently living in a large city? If she won't use her cooking skills to get a job in a conventional restaurant, can you direct her towards a veggie one? Also there are tons of vegan/veggie caterers out there that specialise in high-end events ie cordon bleu.

He founds awful OP. You're in a nightmare situation, I'm so sorry

"feel that allowing her to move back home, with no questions asked I would state that explicitly might encourage her to consider ending it with the BF and allowing her to do so with dignity." Good idea

I also agree no way should she have any joint accounts with this idiot. I wouldn't trust him.

I'm torn between a job particularly a sociable one helping and her possibly being too ill to cope with that. Her health both mental and physical is worryingly at risk.

Thank you all for your comments.

I am encouraging her to apply for a job at a vegan restaurant, as somebody suggested.

She does not have any accounts with him. I have no basis to ask to be a joint signatory, as she is an adult and it is her money to spend how she pleases. If I were to ask, she would be hurt and take it as a sign that I still don't trust him. However, there is limited money available to her, unless she gets a job.

If/when the money runs out, I can say that she is welcome to come and live back here until she sorts herself out, but that it is not fair to expect me to subsidise her living costs at BF's house. I suppose she might be eligible for some benefits, but maybe not very much?

My own take on the situation is that when the money runs out, BF won't want her there anymore and/or he and his parents will want to sell the house or rent it out when he finishes his course. DD knows that the house is likely to be rented out. The idea is that she and BF will go travelling for a while after he graduates and he will rent the house out for money and she will spend the next 9-10 months earning money to finance their travels.

BF is someone who watches the pennies, although most students have to. However, as I said on one of the previous threads, there was an agreement that they wouldn't spend more than £5 on each other at Christmas. He showered her with gifts (nothing too expensive but thoughtful) when he was 'wooing' her, for want of a better word. She was in a 4 year relationship with someone which she ended for him. Now, he gives her nothing, so far as I can make out. He has some savings from his year working in industry but is preserving this for himself/ the house.

I don't say that BF doesn't love DD at all, because I believe that on some level he does. However, I have no doubt that he loves himself best, the house second and with my DD trailing in 3rd place, some way behind.

Kr1stina, thank you for sharing your experience. This is exactly my situation. Originally the plan was for the property to be owned 50/50 and they wanted me to just stump up the cash for them to own it jointly.

I had exactly the same concerns as you had and said that I would make a loan to DD, and that there needed to be a Deed of Trust to protect my 'investment'. BF went along with it as he had no choice but was clearly not happy about it. Their relationship was also going through a bad patch and I pulled out of the transaction altogether, which is when his parents stepped in.

Like you, I knew that I would be left to sort out the mess. Now, whereas BF can kick out DD at anytime, she can also leave at any time, which I think is a much better position for her to be in.

Kr1stina, thank you for sharing your experience. This is exactly my situation. Originally the plan was for the property to be owned 50/50 and they wanted me to just stump up the cash for them to own it jointly.

I had exactly the same concerns as you had and said that I would make a loan to DD, and that there needed to be a Deed of Trust to protect my 'investment'. BF went along with it as he had no choice but was clearly not happy about it. Their relationship was also going through a bad patch and I pulled out of the transaction altogether, which is when his parents stepped in.

Like you, I knew that I would be left to sort out the mess. Now, whereas BF can kick out DD at anytime, she can also leave at any time, which I think is a much better position for her to be in.

Sorry for duplication!

Very worrying Op, I remember your thread about the graduation thing...

I was wondering why she wasn't madly job-hunting to earn money for the travel they are planning - I have, and still do, lots and at that age I would have 2 jobs going to pay for it - but this also worries me:

she will spend the next 9-10 months earning money to finance their travels*

Just as she is now doing up his house etc.

Mind you, anything can happen in his last year at uni, especially with their open relationship....
(I have a strong suspicion he is conveniently keeping her in his house as it suits him for his final year at uni and then maybe piss off travelling with someone else, or even worse, while travelling with her, especially being afraid to ask where the loo is. Alternatively, it could be the "making" of her).

I was in a similar situation as described by PP (ARV, I think), including the parent thing, the rebelliousness, but looking back at it from a point of maturity (ha!), it's something I had to go through I think as it's made me a much stronger person. I'd had a far too sheltered upbringing....

You sound like an amazing mum!

She has low self esteem. Where is the self respect here? If she were my daughter, I'd be very, very worried indeed. He's controlling her and she's allowing it. This will end in tears unless she sees sense.

Thanks Ifly and athena. Yes, I do fear that this could be make or break and that it is likely to end in tears, although I desperately want to believe otherwise.

I think it's very generous of you to be paying an allowance to a graduate in their 20s but also it is enabling her to live this lifestyle which you don't approve of.

It's not as if she needs a job if she has an allowance, a car and her mobile all paid for.

Most young people expect to have to make their own living. They would not consider the set-up your dd has because they would have to earning and living independently and finding their own way in the world.

I know you consider it as supporting your child, but I don't think you are helping her.

Totally agree Cool. With the best will in the world, this is enabling behaviour from a mum who believes she is doing her best. Please don't take this the wrong way o/p but your enabling here is a directly contributing factor in all of this.

Treading on eggshells and avoiding having a proper 'talk' with your daughter about where this is leading will cause more divisions long term. You're her mother. You're entitled to an opinion and its your human right and your duty to voice it.

I know she is technically an adult and having you as co signatory strikes you as unreasonable. But this is an adult who wanted you to find out where the loo was.

I agree with Cool that you are enabling her and I also think you are sending a very mixed message about her situation by supporting her financially when you must know that her money and yours is going into the BF's account.

I think you are perfectly in your rights to ask her to add you to her account, or at least to give you her username and password so that you can monitor spending. I do not know how much you give her as an allowance but you mentioned the figure of £5k as her savings. If she is paying rent and bills then I think it behoves you to know how much of that allowance and her savings are hers to dispose of for her own personal benefit and to make sure it is not all being sucked out of her account by her BF. I would be particularly interested to see if she is expected to pay towards furniture or decorating or landscaping costs or plumbing, electrical, etc. Even if she is 'only' paying utility bills and rent, this is a bizarre situation as she considers them to be a couple.

Sending her the message that you are suspicious that she is being taken for a ride here might be a good idea. You can do this by seeing how much of her money is going to her BF.

Wrt the car -- how much use does it get and who drives it? I would be tempted to let her continue to have use of it but I would ask her for proof of bona fide job applications, maybe three per month, as a condition of keeping it. Other than that, it is a good idea for her to have the car and to have the potential to go places under her own steam without depending on BF for transport or having to adjust her plans to public transport timetables.

BF is willing to have her there to cook and do laundry for him and provide sexual services until he graduates. How handy for him not to have to think of meals, unlike 99.999% of other students. He has a cordon bleu cook at home, she has a car and maybe drives him to university, and he can shag anyone he wants to and DD too, without a condom, and she will take care of any unwanted consequences. She is kept sweet with the promise of 'travelling together' when he graduates, but I would bet that she will have no say over the itinerary if this pans out, and judging by her performance with the loos, she would actually shy away from trying to get involved and be happy that someone else made the decisions, dealt with bookings, etc and handed it all to her on a plate. But deep down I suspect there will be no travelling. He will get a job and continue to use whatever services she wants to offer to him. She will continue to hope for a ring.

You need to ask her where they will be going to and who is making the arrangements.

You need to ask her how the open relationship works -- do they discuss the other relationships they have with other people (make it clear that you assume she is also having sex with other people) and if she tells you it is only BF who has sex with others, ask her if his other relationships are discussed with her or if he is assumed to have carte blanche. Ask her if sauce for the gander would work for the goose, if she were to embark on other relationships. If she seems to not know if BF has other relationships, then ask her why she doesn't know.

Most importantly you need to ask her if BF uses a condom when he has sex with others. If she responds that she does not know or that she can't discuss that with BF or if she says he doesn't then you need to impress upon her the importance of getting a std test and having BF take one too, regularly, and presenting the results to her, and you must do your utmost to change her mind about condoms.

You are going to have to be blunt and I think you need to use threats of cutting her allowance or other privileges in order to get her to accept the reality of the jeopardy she is putting herself into here.

You know what having read last few posts Inc yours OP I agree. You're not doing her any favours by funding her staying with this arse! At the very least consider putting a time limit on this. A short one!

I really do think she'd be better off at home, getting proper medical treatment for her mh problems which would hopefully lead to her coming to her senses and telling bf to do one!

As well as other daughter where's her old schoolfriends in all this? Maybe being in contact with them and seeing how their relationships work (hopefully with equality respect and trust).

Well, if DM starts laying down the law DD might cut off contact.

It's a tricky situation.

I am not paying her an allowance any longer. I paid her 3 months worth after graduation as a lump sum and have paid the motor insurance etc for a year. I said to her specifically that this was to help her to give her a few months to find her feet and look for a job and become independent. She is the only person insured to drive the car (apart from me) and she uses it a lot, particularly to come home.

I do not intend to pay her any further allowance or to support her lifestyle indefinitely. I quite agree that this would be enabling. I would like to see her find a job, which apart from giving her an income will boost her self esteem. Also, I think that if the money runs out, he may lose interest.

She is not spending any money on the house; she seems to have no involvement in the decoration and furnishing. From what she has said, BF 's parents are afraid that she might make some claim on the house otherwise. I know she is sharing bills but I don't know if she is paying any rent yet, or whether or not this is on any formal basis, but I suspect not, as she would probably have shown the tenancy agreement to me. DD told me that they wanted to keep it informal but BF's parents may have other ideas.

In view of the previous bust up, I am treading softly and I don't want to be aggressive or issue ultimatums or to seem anti the BF, as this will drive her away from me, whereas at the moment she trusts me and tells me things. I fear that if I am critical she will clam up and withdraw from me, as Scooby says, and I am keen that channels of communication are kept wide open. It is also useful for her to have her sisters to talk to - they both said that they would not even contemplate open relationships for themselves, although they said that they respected her decision (on the basis she told them that she and BF had both decided this together).

I have to play a long game, unfortunately, and ultimately our DC have to learn from their own mistakes, not ours.

It sounds as if she is paying rent. I would ask her directly.

Ask questions instead of making statements. Don't follow an answer with your thoughts on what she has said. Let her listen to her own answers, in her head so to speak. Ask a question, listen, and then move on with whatever you are doing.