Concerns about DD relationship. Not pregnant but has agreed with DP that will abort if it were to happen

[rhapsodyinblues]

I have NC'd for this.

DD is in a stable relationship with Her boyfriend. They are both 23 and met at university. They have been together nearly 2 years. DD has just graduated but is unsure what she wants to do yet and BF has another year to go before graduating. She says she will look for a temporary job until BF graduates.

DP has bought a house jointly with his parents where he and my DD live. There is no mortgage (it's in a northern city). Originally I was going to buy half of the house so my DD and BF would own it jointly but I pulled out at the last minute as their relationship was going through a rocky patch and I had some concerns that BF might be a bit controlling. Also, that my DD should not be tied to a house and a city when she hadn't made any career plans.

There was a big falling out after i effectively threw BF out of my house as he seemed to be upsetting her when she was working for her Finals, although I was reconciled to DD within a couple of days. I met with BF at the graduation and he came to the family meals etc and all seemed to be fine - and still is. BF said I'd got him all wrong and DD is very much in love and is happy that all is well. She comes home a lot and we are close.

I have learned my lesson. I am standing back and will be very careful not to be critical of BF again. However. I am a bit worried about 2 things DD has recently told me. The first is that BF can't possibly be controlling as they have agreed to have an open relationship. The second is that they don't want to start a family right now and DD will have an abortion if she were to become pregnant.

The thing is that DD is a committed vegan. She won't even eat a hen's egg so I can't imagine her opening a conversation along the lines of 'if we have a baby we will abort it'. Is this normal? I can see that couples would discuss whether or not to have a family and when but isn't this a bit unusual? My DD said they'd 'had the talk' as though it were normal. Is it?

Also, because she doesn't want chemicals in her body she is apparently trying to prevent pregnancy through natural methods by taking her temperature etc. I have urged her to opt for a more reliable method and said that I would never judge anyone for having an abortion but that it is a very hard decision. She seemed to take this on board.

However, I am back to worrying again. I know it is not really my business but equally if it all goes wrong with BF she will be relying on us to help and support her and I just hate to see her hurt.

Has anyone else gone through this as I know I may be worrying unnecessarily and I can't discuss this with anyone in RL.

I assumed the connection between vegan and abortion was that some people who are vegan for ideological reasons ( because they are concerned for animal welfare ) would not wish to have an abortion ( because they are concerned for the welfare of their baby / foetus ) .

They think that if it's wrong to kill an animal for your own convenience / social reasons for food / products , it's also wrong to kill a baby / foetus for social reasons .

For them it's about respecting the life of others , animals and humans .

"Also, because she doesn't want chemicals in her body she is apparently trying to prevent pregnancy through natural methods by taking her temperature etc. "
Has it been pointed out to your daughter that abortion involves putting chemicals into her body? Perhaps it would help to nudge her to barrier methods?

'The house was very much a doer upper and she has been helping with the painting and decorating so I assume he hasn't felt able to charge too much whilst they were sleeping on an air bed! Maybe she comes home because it is more comfortable!'

So:
She is doing his decorating for him, and paying 'some bills' and paying rent.

She is paying him rent?

What is happening here is he does not consider himself to be bound in any way to her and she for her part is playing house with him, maybe in hopes of eventually 'taming' him.

I would be terribly concerned about pregnancy if I were you.

You need to make her get a job. Find a way to do this. There is no way on earth she should be spending her savings and her allowance on his bills and doing the decorating on his fixer upper while he is off fucking other women. She is adding to the value of a house she has absolutely no claim on whatsoever, and presumably playing mummy to her BF, (cooking, cleaning, laundry) with condomless sex thrown in as part of the service, DD taking on responsibility for the consequences if any, and he has the gall to charge her rent?

Maybe she comes home because an empty house is not all that happy a place for her, while he is away in someone else's bed?

Your DD is either controlled by an abusive arsehole or she herself is living in some responsibility-free, loved-up fantasy world in which either her parents of her BF (and his parents) look after her, and the normal rules of young adulthood don't apply -- i.e. that there are no shortcuts to the destination of a solid relationship with a loving partner in a house you can call your own and most people get that by being very careful and working their tails off. Not by putting their own careers on hold and becoming attached to anyone in a pair of trousers whose parents can provide a roof over the loved-up young people's heads.

There is much in your account to suggest that your DD has her head in either the clouds or in the sand. There is much to suggest that the BF is controlling -- I do not mean to be harsh towards your DD, who is in an unenviable position. But she needs to do an awful lot of growing up and she needs her self esteem rebuilt, or constructed from the ground up. She needs a job and she needs one fast.

She is putting the cart before the horse here, and sacrificing so much. I would be very keen to know what she hopes the payoff will be for her. She must think she has some sort of future here. Ask her, as far as you feel you can, what is in this for her. Ask her what foundation she sees for her hopes.

You also need to nudge her very consistently in the direction of getting a job. If there is resistance to this on her part then I think you can take it as a given that her confidence and self esteem have been ruined and she needs a lot of help extricating herself from this.

Ha! Math does not mince her words . But she is right of course

Ma, she has been suffering from depression. She was on ADs but came off them a while ago as she said they made her feel numb. She changed her diet at that time. She seems happy with us on holiday but had an anxiety episode at the start of the holiday. I organised counselling for her and she has had some sessions but her therapist thinks she should be on medication.

I don't think he is engaged in any other relationships at present but of course the coast is clear at present.

Samantha you are right about the vegan aspect. DD wants children although not yet and I think it would be awful for her to be brow beaten into an abortion and would undoubtedly be something she would be affected by in terms of the depression. My cynical side thinks he and his parents wouldn't want there to be any claim on the house by any potential child of the relationship.

Well I'd say that was a really dodgy (and misogynistic) connection between veganism and wanting autonomy over your own body. However that's not the point. The point is how your DD feels about abortion and would she truly get to choose if push came to shove?

The more you say about him, the worse he sounds I'm afraid. The depression is not being helped by him (even if he isn't the root cause). I think math's question about what is she getting out of the relationship might help her think about the imbalance there and how long she wants this to continue.

I would listen to that inner cynic of yours. She speaks much sense.

Sounds awful.

Why have they agreed to an open relationship?

It is normal to discuss pregnancy. I'm 21 and been with OH nearly three years. We have a house(mortgaged) together so I'd say we're pretty serious. We have had the what if I got pregnant talk a few times in different stages in our relationship. Now we have a house I would most definitely not abort, but then again I was on the implant and injection previously so pretty reliable methods. I think maybe you should have a talk regarding her methods and explain how hard an abortion can be for someone and the possible effects it could have on her physically and mentally.

Why is she putting her career on hold for him? Doesn't make sense. Why not get stuck in now?

I have also read your previous thread on this matter. I would also listen to that inner cynic of yours as well.

I would ask her outright what she is getting out of this relationship now?.
What needs of hers is he meeting?.

Was the open relationship his idea?.

You do not want to see her hurt but that is already happening. Did you ever read "Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft.

He targeted your DD OP; he saw something in her (an outwardly confident person but on the inside perhaps with a shaky sense of self worth and overall low self esteem) and has exploited all of that for his own ends. I note too she came off the ADs; was that at his direction as well?.

She is with an abusive arse of a person and now she is really being controlled by him. He is the driving force behind all their decisions; she has really got no say at all. This has been happening for a long time and since the early days of their relationship as well; the power and control antes from him have ramped up over time. The many red flags here were either minimised or unrecognised by your DD. This is all about power and control; LB wants absolute over her and he is well on the way to getting that now.

Its going to take her years to recover from his control if she properly does and unfortunately that process of recovery will not at all begin until she leaves him.

The problem is that she is in a relationship with a not very nice man.

Discussing with a partner what would happen if you got pregnant unexpectedly is not odd in itself. I was in a long term relationship at 23 and we had the same agreement (though pregnancy was unlikely given we used condoms and I was on the pill).

But the abortion discussion coupled with the 'open' relationship, non-barrier contraception and all the other stuff? I would be unhappy to OP.

The thing is, there is very little you can do. If you tell her how you feel, you risk alienating her and that's the last thing she needs. I think the best you can do is keep communication open with her, and be clear she can always turn to you if she needs help.

Mm thinking to have a termination if there is an accidental pregnancy is fair enough I think.

However, this bf is an utter twat. I remember hating him in your other threads and it seems to have got worse.

I think you're doing great tho. Supportive, listening, providing a warm home for her. She will see sense eventually, surely...

What Math and Attila said.

Imho, your dd is in the "good enough for now" position, while the (edit descriptive) bf goes shopping for his soulmate. New soulmate will get pregnant and your dd will be dumped (no matter how many abortions - or other sacrifices - she has made for him).

Sorry, but your dd is being a doormat. On paper, she is a housemate with benefits. The bf is exploiting this. I wonder if she has ever said "no" to him?

for you on being there for her, OP.
Ask her to read up on relationships. The Lundy. Bancroft book mentioned is great. "Women who love too much" is good. "Smart women/foolish choices:finding the right men/avoiding the wrong ones" may also be helpful.

mathanxiety spot on. AttilaTheMeerkat wise words.

rhapsodyinblues is she still seeing the counsellor? would she allow you to be present so you can ask her to gently bring up this toxic boy friend?

I totally agree about the job, or even if necessary a short intern ship locally to you so she can come home and live at home 'temporarily' while getting work experience.

Just do all you can to build her confidence in herself and help her to realise she does deserve so much better. Maybe a night of gentle drinking with your dd and her sis may get her to open up (as long as alcohol is not off bounds for her depression etc) or maybe any other fun family activity designed to get her to open up ( a spa night away?)

I bet you just want to shake her, I would! BUT you maybe need her to realise as others have said....

• the relationship is going nowhere, he doesn't want her on the mortgagee and maybe sees her as a help doing up HIS house

-he is putting her at risk from sexually transmitted diseases, who knows who he may sleep with!

-maybe he is adding to her depression by not seeing her a sufficient for him.

-he is risking her facing an abortion or an unwanted pregnancy

• he is holding up her career

He really doesn't seem to care about her feelings and this may make her feel she does not deserve someone who does, but she so much deserves to be loved and cherished. Remind her she is by you in a non-judgemental way and make the way clear for her to come back any time.

You sound like a fab mum. Go mum, go!

samantha28 has listed out the salient points perfectly.

Your DD is being taken for a ride by a controlling man. She's taking some major risks - physically, financially and in terms of her career; not to mention her mental health. She can't afford to be romantic about what's happening, or perfectionistic about chemicals etc, in this situation.

However - tackling it is not so easy, from your point of view.

I do think that in coming to stay with you, she is (consciously or otherwise) making a move away from her BF. So while you don't want to criticise the BF, you don't have to be supportive or uncritical of him either. You can ask how she feels, point out risks, ask if she really agrees with what's going on or would advise a friend to do it. Just so she can reflect more on her situation. Ask about career plans. If she says 'We've decided....' ask her what SHE plans to do, specifically.

Something else that suggests she isn't happy with the situation, is the fact she's telling you she is. IMO people who are happy, are just happy. People who tell you they are happy, aren't.

Thank you all for your wisdom and taking the trouble to post. I will try to keep her close. Sadly, I don't think she would consider applying for a job away from him. I agree that she has too much invested in the relationship. In my view, the best outcome is that it runs its course sooner rather than later and that she is not damaged by it long term. BF may be just young and selfish rather than anything more sinister but I can't quite warm to him, I'm afraid.

Oh no, it's this guy.

I agree with Math.

So sad to hear this latest twist, her confidence must really be shot to pieces that she thinks she only deserves an open relationship with someone like this.

You're doing the right thing by keeping her close and making sure she can come home whenever and for as long as she wants. How worrying for you this must be though.

I think a proper job, or any job, would do her the WORLD of good, can you keep nudging her in that direction?

Oh for fucks sake not this wanker again! I keep hoping she sees sense and each time it gets worse.

What does her sister think about all this? Any other family members that she looks up to that you can engage to put her straight? Has someone done the whole 'red flag' thing with her?

Open relationships aren't problems in and of themselves, but there's limited knowledge of them so it can be difficult for people to get support, because there's so much background to go through before you can discuss the thing that's actually causing a problem.

There are poly specific resources - everydayfeminism.com/2015/05/abuse-in-poly-relationships/ & www.morethantwo.com/blog/2015/02/resources-on-abuse-in-polyamorous-relationships (to take two examples) about and there are lists of poly aware counsellors. It may be worthwhile pointing your daughter at some of these resources and at poly meet ups/events - see www.google.com/calendar/[email protected] for a calendar of UK events. Contact with other people in open relationships will probably help your daughter evaluate her own relationship more objectively/give her different view points about how people structure their relationships.

Other people are right re her needing to find a job - when she does do job hunting employers are going to want to know why there's a gap in her CV. Taking a year out to renovate a house immediately post uni will look a bit odd. Job hunting as a new graduate is hard, so looking in a reasonably wide area of the country would be sensible.

Can she drive/does she have a car? If not, these would be useful things for her to have, to give her flexibility/independence/more scope in job hunting.

I remember this delightful young man and his controlling ways.

Your daughter can take control of her fertility in a non invasive way by using the Persona machine. It tests hormone levels in urine on sticks to detect fertile days and tells you if today is safe or not.

Personally I think she needs to take control of her life.

she is paying her boyfriend rent to live in his outright owned house

WTAF!!

Your dd is being used.
He's taking her your money.
Having the fun of ing her with no condom and whoever else he wants with zero responsibility.

He's not far off being a pimp.

Get your dd away from him ASAP.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were other abuse red flags that aren't on this thread.

So she is in an open relationship even though she will not sleep with anyone else and would be upset if he did?

She is refusing to take birth control and instead is using natural methods, sorry but does she want to get pregnant? to be able to hold him even closer to her? it is easy to say you would have an abortion but until you actually been in that situation...

The whole relationship sounds very one sided (on his side) but if your daughter 'happy' then there is nothing you can do. Just hope that he dumps her or she wises up. Hopefully she doesn't get pregnant in that time!!

I remember your last thread about the house buying issue.

You could be seen as a codependent of the relationship she has with this nutter by keeping her room for her 'in case she needs it'. And by promising to be there for her.

It would be risky but can you do a 'DF and I have come to a time in our lives when we want to downsize/ convert the spare bedroom into a study/workshop' or something and stop pandering to this lifestyle choice of your DD's - tell her HER room is no more. And act as if you have more to do with your life than fret over hers - new hobby? looking at a holiday home abroad? going back to college?

That might also give her the message that Grandma won't have a room for her and any baby she might produce - make clear the message that she has to stand by her own decisions now she's an adult. (though I'm sure you would help her out if it happened). But without condemning him or her life.

NFP is actually pretty effective when practiced properly, it has a similar failure rate to condoms- though of course isn't remotely suitable where a couple aren't monogamous. And I can't see any inconsistency between her veganism and wanting an abortion either. It's perfectly plausible and legitimate for her to think she has the right to end a life that's inside her own body but not one that isn't. I'm no vegan, but can see the principle there. The only inconsistency here is not wanting to go on the Pill because of chemicals but being fine with an abortion- does she think they do all natural ones?

Frankly I'd be more worried about all the other stuff. Lots of red flags there. Them having talked about what they'd do in the event of unwanted pregnancy is just about the least worrying thing in this whole setup.