Concerns about DD relationship. Not pregnant but has agreed with DP that will abort if it were to happen

[rhapsodyinblues]

I have NC'd for this.

DD is in a stable relationship with Her boyfriend. They are both 23 and met at university. They have been together nearly 2 years. DD has just graduated but is unsure what she wants to do yet and BF has another year to go before graduating. She says she will look for a temporary job until BF graduates.

DP has bought a house jointly with his parents where he and my DD live. There is no mortgage (it's in a northern city). Originally I was going to buy half of the house so my DD and BF would own it jointly but I pulled out at the last minute as their relationship was going through a rocky patch and I had some concerns that BF might be a bit controlling. Also, that my DD should not be tied to a house and a city when she hadn't made any career plans.

There was a big falling out after i effectively threw BF out of my house as he seemed to be upsetting her when she was working for her Finals, although I was reconciled to DD within a couple of days. I met with BF at the graduation and he came to the family meals etc and all seemed to be fine - and still is. BF said I'd got him all wrong and DD is very much in love and is happy that all is well. She comes home a lot and we are close.

I have learned my lesson. I am standing back and will be very careful not to be critical of BF again. However. I am a bit worried about 2 things DD has recently told me. The first is that BF can't possibly be controlling as they have agreed to have an open relationship. The second is that they don't want to start a family right now and DD will have an abortion if she were to become pregnant.

The thing is that DD is a committed vegan. She won't even eat a hen's egg so I can't imagine her opening a conversation along the lines of 'if we have a baby we will abort it'. Is this normal? I can see that couples would discuss whether or not to have a family and when but isn't this a bit unusual? My DD said they'd 'had the talk' as though it were normal. Is it?

Also, because she doesn't want chemicals in her body she is apparently trying to prevent pregnancy through natural methods by taking her temperature etc. I have urged her to opt for a more reliable method and said that I would never judge anyone for having an abortion but that it is a very hard decision. She seemed to take this on board.

However, I am back to worrying again. I know it is not really my business but equally if it all goes wrong with BF she will be relying on us to help and support her and I just hate to see her hurt.

Has anyone else gone through this as I know I may be worrying unnecessarily and I can't discuss this with anyone in RL.

It's very normal and positive for people in sexual relationships to discuss what would happen in the event of an unplanned pregnancy. Your DD clearly has her head screwed on at least as far as that is concerned.

The abortion/ vegan issue is bizarre and random.

I just wanted to add (though it is a minor point) that there is a huge difference between taking an abortion pill once and spending decades of your life on hormonal contraceptives. I would be grateful to have a medical abortion if I needed one, but would never want to mess with my hormones for years at a time.

I don't see why people keep mentioning that your daughter is being inconsistent; life is a compromise for everyone, even for vegans, though some extremists try to deny this.

Discussing pregnancy and abortion in a sexual relationship is normal, healthy and sensible.

However, that is only normal, healthy or sensible thing about your DD's relationship.

He is a controlling arse with no interest in her welfare, and she appears to have little interest in her own welfare either.

What can you do about it? Well it's a tough one. You can't force her to leave. But you can tell her what you think i no uncertain terms. Not hysterically or angrily or endlessly. Just the plain sad truth.

'I think this relationship is not normal, healthy or sensible. I would not accept it for myself. I'm sad that you are accepting it.'

Open relationships aren't problems in and of themselves, but there's limited knowledge of them so it can be difficult for people to get support, because there's so much background to go through before you can discuss the thing that's actually causing a problem.

There are poly specific resources - everydayfeminism.com/2015/05/abuse-in-poly-relationships/ & www.morethantwo.com/blog/2015/02/resources-on-abuse-in-polyamorous-relationships (to take two examples) about and there are lists of poly aware counsellors. It may be worthwhile pointing your daughter at some of these resources and at poly meet ups/events - see www.google.com/calendar/[email protected] for a calendar of UK events. Contact with other people in open relationships will probably help your daughter evaluate her own relationship more objectively/give her different view points about how people structure their relationships.

Other people are right re her needing to find a job - when she does do job hunting employers are going to want to know why there's a gap in her CV. Taking a year out to renovate a house immediately post uni will look a bit odd. Job hunting as a new graduate is hard, so looking in a reasonably wide area of the country would be sensible.

Can she drive/does she have a car? If not, these would be useful things for her to have, to give her flexibility/independence/more scope in job hunting.

I think the abortion/vegan 'chemicals' and going off the ADs and changing her diet at the same time as going off the ADs are details that indicate she is not mentally well.

I have a relative who fixates on 'chemicals' when he is going through a bad phase of MH issues and needs his ADs rejigged. He starts to focus on food and smells and obsesses about poison, etc. Your DD may not be exactly like this (i.e. obsessive -- my relative has a lot of time on his hands and a postgrad degree in a science subject) but your description is ringing bells.

There are alternatives to ADs that make her feel 'numb' and she needs to go back to her doctor to find out what might be available for her.

Being so 'in love' and 'happy' and generally euphoric can be a self medicating thing too.

I'd be grateful to have a medical abortion if I needed one too clara, but it's pretty undeniably something that messes artificially with one's hormones. It doesn't make a great deal of sense to be sufficiently concerned about hormones to avoid the Pill, whilst not availing yourself of non-hormonal contraception with a lower failure rate than NFP.

There's also the STI issue. If he picks something up from elsewhere whilst pursuing his open relationship and gives it to her, she could end up needing a load of totally avoidable antibiotics, or worse. While I don't share her views on hormonal contraception, I can see why some people try and minimise putting artificial substances or whatever you want to call them into their bodies. So it doesn't make sense to engage in behaviour that makes it more likely she'll need medical attention. Basically, if you don't want the hormones in the pill, why do something that means you might end up having to take drugs that make it look like smarties?

I think the issue around the open relationship may be that it is not necessarily the daughter's choice. If it is not her choice, then finding out more about 'open' relationships may be unhelpful and may normalise what is generally not a 'normal' situation for most people, IMHO. Someone who is depressed is, in my non-professional opinion, quite vulnerable to someone else exerting some degree of control.

rhapsodyinblues I really hope your dd is OK and will be able to come back to you for a visit soon and be able to express how she is feeling.

I think she's ill, being abused and controlled and is extremely vulnerable.

Not using condoms in an 'open relationship' is just stupid! She's putting her fertility, health and potentially life at risk (I do wish people would realise that while treatment for hepatitis and hiv are much improved there is still no cure and they still kill and in deeply painful unpleasant ways). I would be graphically reminding her of this.

I'm involved in a community that advocates non-conformist relationships but that's very different to this set up. That's with healthy, independant confident adults treating each other as equals.

It smacks of her having been manipulated/bullied into a relationship where he can shag who he likes (condom free ) while she's doing up HIS house!!

As to what to do? So difficult. Instinctively if it were my dd I'd be dragging her arse home and telling him tae get tae!!!

However, that would likely result in her running back to him and him saying whatever I said about him is cos I'm crazy!

My suggestion therefore is to talk to a Dr for advice, perhaps mind, and women's aid. Hope they would be able to advise.

When I say ill I think there's more to her condition than depression too. There seem to be elements of paranoia, control issues etc too

My husband and I discussed this when we first got together and periodically after. We always said we'd have an abortion if I got pregnant until we actually wanted a child. Luckily we didn't need to have one but I think it's healthy to have that conversation.

I agree with your posts, Baconyum.

I don't have much to add except I came on to say Persona, I used it for a few years. I now have a copper coil which is also hormone free
Worth discussing maybe

Thanks for your advice everyone.

I had a chat with DD last night. She says she is suffering from anxiety but she knows she needs to change her way of looking at things and is working on that - for example, she has bought various self help books. She definitely doesn't want to want to go back onto ADs but I was pleased that she is trying to be positive in how she is tackling things and taking responsibility.

We all had a lovely time on holiday and after the anxiety episode at the beginning, she was fine. However, she does seem to suffer with low self esteem/lack of confidence in some situations. For example, wanting me or DH to order her food in restaurants and explain the vegan aspects of the diet - although once I had started the conversation she would usually join in. Also, wanting me to ask the tour guide where the toilets are, and just generally small things, but I did say to her several times that she was a grown up now and needed to do this for herself, which she didn't disagree with, but said she was shy. She was also asking me to arrange a dental appointment but I pointed out that she needed to find a new dentist in the town where she now lives and arrange this herself.

It's as though she seems to regress when she is at home, to some extent, as she is clearly able to manage when she is away and run a house etc. She is going back tomorrow and is keen to see the BF but said she would be back soon and is very keen for me to visit her there.

I said I thought that getting a job would boost her confidence and DH, who came into the room at that stage, agreed that she should look for a job. She agrees but doesn't have any career plans. She says she wants to do something she enjoys (don't we all), but that she wants to just get a job to earn some money whilst BF does his last year at uni, so they can go travelling afterwards. However, there doesn't seem to be any real sense of purpose there, maybe because of the depression/anxiety issues.

Is she really running a house?

And if she is, wouldn't that be a matter of mere routine, enclosed within her four (rented) walls? If she has no job and she spends her time cleaning, decorating, cooking, and being in love or telling herself she is, she is not really getting out and asserting herself in the big world outside her door, where you have seen she is nervous and childlike -- I doubt she just regresses when she is at home. The sense of safety and relief at having found a situation where she does not having to deal with reality are feelings she may be confusing with being in love and being 'happy'. She is just shutting the real world out, living in a very circumscribed domestic environment, and the idea of taking a step out into RL (i.e. a job) has no relation to getting into the driver's seat in her own life. It's pretty remote from where she is right now, and irrelevant to her life as a whole.

My take on this is that she is completely under her BF's thumb because that feels safer than taking responsibility for making her own way in the world. I strongly suspect that she has enormous anxiety problems or serious depression and/or possibly paranoia (and/or maybe ocd re chemicals and veganism, or maybe that is a way of ritualising in order to feel she has some control or to manage anxieties/quiet any nagging voice in her head that reminds her that she has chosen unreality).
there doesn't seem to be any real sense of purpose there -- she has opted out of adult life, imo.

Whether her inclination to run away from reality is due to a mental illness or to having had her personality destroyed by her BF is anyone's guess. But imo she urgently needs to see a psychologist and talk exhaustively about what is going on.

Above all I do not think she is one bit happy.

op, was she independent as a student? Or did she still rely on you for much and consider home as home IYSWIM?

When I was your daughter's age and wavering about a 2 year relationship, it took just a few encouraging words from my dad to help me end it: 'your mum and I don't think he's really your 'type' of person'. It was a lightbulb moment, a sage piece of advice from someone who knew me better than anyone, it was like having permission to go ahead and do what was best for me.
It sounds like you have a close relationship, and like she might be looking for 'permission' to get away, perhaps a cosy chat with DH might put her in the right frame of mind to start extricating herself?

(The well-timed comment from DF went hand in hand with me starting a new job and getting to know a new set of people, so i agree that finding something to do with her day that takes the focus off the BF is key).

Life is hard, constant decision making even if it's just what to eat for dinner. Or, at least, if you are anxious it is hard as your head is full of panicky thoughts.
As a sham psychologist I would say she is panicking as she is 'trapped' with this odd ball and can't face the rows if she wants to leave him, the admission that she has made a stupid decision being with him, the fear of what she will do without him (let's face it her life will be empty of a planned future). And that could be making her anxiety worse (and therefore could be a good sign that she is getting ready to make a change.)

An escape route is needed. Counselling would be v useful if she will go.

Another one who remembers previous threads. and that he is still in the picture. Pregnancy by this man would be a complete disaster. Do you have any medic friends who can be horribly graphic about STDs? What do her friends think of him?

Do you think there are any careers she would be particularly well suited to? Maybe you could look for some suitable vacancies, and then help her to apply?

You could then do it bit by bit, 'you might as well apply, it is good to get your cv in shape' 'you might as well go to the interview, it is all good practice' and so on.

I think the OP's DD isn't mentally ill or unstable but just terribly, terribly immature - which makes her vulnerable and frightened.

The OP needs to take a long, hard look at the upbringing she gave her DD that meant she ended up so immature post-university, with no independent life plan.

From my experience this talk is normal. I can't comment on the controlling nature, and have only read page 1 so far, but as far as discussing what would happen if we got pregnant, totally normal. I'm 21, and several times during uni my friends and I would discuss what we and our boyfriends would do if we got pregnant. We'd all discussed it, and most of us were adamant we'd have an abortion.

Of course I was the only idiot one of us who did get pregnant during uni, at 19, and for all my insistence that we'd terminate, 16 month old DD is proof that no matter how sure you are, you can't predict how you'll feel when you get that positive test.

There are vegans among the girls in my class who said they'd terminate. If never imagined the two as being mutually exclusive, although it makes sense when I think about it.

Bobo, what an unhelpful thing to say. If the DD has been given ADs, a doctor has decided she needs them. OP needs help for her DD; I'm sure she did a fine job bringing her up but the issue at hand is what to
Do
NOW!

I don't understand why he doesn't use a condom if they don't want a baby and I don't understand why she is paying rent rather than just sharing bills. The relationship seems heavily weighted in favour of the boyfriend and I would be very worried too if I were in your position.

The OP will not be able to help her DD unless she reflects on how her DD's life journey has got her to her current situation and the part the OP played in that.