Concerns about DD relationship. Not pregnant but has agreed with DP that will abort if it were to happen

[rhapsodyinblues]

I have NC'd for this.

DD is in a stable relationship with Her boyfriend. They are both 23 and met at university. They have been together nearly 2 years. DD has just graduated but is unsure what she wants to do yet and BF has another year to go before graduating. She says she will look for a temporary job until BF graduates.

DP has bought a house jointly with his parents where he and my DD live. There is no mortgage (it's in a northern city). Originally I was going to buy half of the house so my DD and BF would own it jointly but I pulled out at the last minute as their relationship was going through a rocky patch and I had some concerns that BF might be a bit controlling. Also, that my DD should not be tied to a house and a city when she hadn't made any career plans.

There was a big falling out after i effectively threw BF out of my house as he seemed to be upsetting her when she was working for her Finals, although I was reconciled to DD within a couple of days. I met with BF at the graduation and he came to the family meals etc and all seemed to be fine - and still is. BF said I'd got him all wrong and DD is very much in love and is happy that all is well. She comes home a lot and we are close.

I have learned my lesson. I am standing back and will be very careful not to be critical of BF again. However. I am a bit worried about 2 things DD has recently told me. The first is that BF can't possibly be controlling as they have agreed to have an open relationship. The second is that they don't want to start a family right now and DD will have an abortion if she were to become pregnant.

The thing is that DD is a committed vegan. She won't even eat a hen's egg so I can't imagine her opening a conversation along the lines of 'if we have a baby we will abort it'. Is this normal? I can see that couples would discuss whether or not to have a family and when but isn't this a bit unusual? My DD said they'd 'had the talk' as though it were normal. Is it?

Also, because she doesn't want chemicals in her body she is apparently trying to prevent pregnancy through natural methods by taking her temperature etc. I have urged her to opt for a more reliable method and said that I would never judge anyone for having an abortion but that it is a very hard decision. She seemed to take this on board.

However, I am back to worrying again. I know it is not really my business but equally if it all goes wrong with BF she will be relying on us to help and support her and I just hate to see her hurt.

Has anyone else gone through this as I know I may be worrying unnecessarily and I can't discuss this with anyone in RL.

If it's an open relationship, condoms would be a very good idea.

She doesn't need a 'life plan.' She just needs a job, any job for now. The way she is living is not healthy and very unusual for a young intelligent woman just out of university.

Bobo chic, you are wrong and unkind. The ethos of MN is to provide support to parents. Perhaps you should reflect on whether you are doing that.

Disengaging with you now.

OP I'm sorry to read this thread. I remember your previous ones. FWIW I don't think your DD is regressing when she comes home. I imagine her abusive bf is gradually eroding her confidence and telling her she can't do even simple tasks and that she is shy. He is creating a cycle where she feels dependent and hopeless.

I wonder if she discusses her relationship with her counsellor? I think that actually holds the most chance of helping her to break free. Feeling anxious and depressed can stem from an abusive relationship.

I feel so sorry for your DD and for you trying to support her through this. Have you had conversations about what healthy relationships are like? Because, somewhere in her life, your DD has developed some unhealthy ideas of boundaries in relationships. She's not the first person to have done so but she needs to work out her triggers and why she associates love with putting herself last and being walked all over. A good counsellor can help her with this so if I were you I would be having conversations about healthy relationships; about creating boundaries and I'd try to get her to see a relationship counsellor on her own.

I don't agree with the PP who said you should tell her she no longer has a room at home. But I do agree that you should focus on helping her to move forward with a career whether by going to job fairs with her (ask her to accompany you or her DSIS if she won't go for herself ) or helping her to find a volunteer position. She sounds as though she could be a people pleaser so I'd use her desire to please and help you and/or her DSIS to get her spending time taking steps that will actually ultimately help her.

Just wanted to chime in another voice to say yes, as far as I'm concerned it's not just normal but important and responsible to have The Talk with a partner about what happens in the event of an unplanned pregnancy... But (I've talked about being in an open relationship on here before, not going to start NCing now!) it's very very odd and irresponsible - to put it politely - not to use barrier methods of contraception with multiple partners. Even, I think, if there are murky waters behind this 'open relationship', I think she might benefit from reading some of the community resources that another poster linked to earlier. I don't think it'll risk normalising it - I think it will help show up (very quickly) the unevenness and unreasonably one-sided nature of their current arrangement, not to mention her partner's apparent complete lack of care for her.

It's so, so hard to sit back and watch someone you love make choices that will hurt them. OP, you're being an amazing loving mum here and you're handling what must be a very upsetting situation incredibly well. I hope I have your strength and calm when I have adult children.

Agree with a pp. What does 'running a house' involve? She could be staying in all day cleaning. It doesn't involve a great deal of confidence or skill.

What on earth is she doing with her time?

Uni students who can't find a job in their field or don't know what to do work in a bar or a call centre, anything to get them earning and out in the land of the living.

I would be very worried about her if she can't even ask someone where the toilets are.

The first step in making positive change is clarity. The OP cannot change her DD or her DD's BF but she can change the way she views her relationship and responsibilities to her DD. Blaming the BF is a non-starter.

I don't know if this is helpful at all...

But. I was your dd (obviously not literally!) I left uni, moved in with bfn (rented not owned though) and ended up in an abusive relationship. Slightly different obviously, but essentially very similar.

It took me ten years to extract myself from him. Ten years I now regret.

I regressed to a childlike state. I couldn't answer the phone or make a simple call without palpitations. I certainly couldn't speak to strangers even to ask where the toilets were. It was like he'd taken all my autonomy away and crushed my self esteem to the level that I thought I couldn't do anything. I was always shy. He brought out more of my shyness and turned me into a mouse.

I was stuck in the sunken cost fallacy. I knew he wasn't right (and I was the opposite to your dd, I did everything I could to avoid pregnancy because I didn't think he'd make a good enough dad - I still think he wouldn't) but I wanted to "prove" to everyone that they were wrong. That he was a good person really. I was monumentally stupid to do this.

I don't think it was helped by my parent's - my dad refused to let him in the house so we never visited. I think dad was wrong to do this, as part of my mentality was to "rebel" against the norms of society and to be different (maybe your dd is similar - choosing such an extreme diet as veganism?) and dad's attitude fuelled mine.

I don't know what you can do. I don't think closing your door to her would be helpful, but I don't think you should give her the impression that you'll always pick up the pieces for her either. She has to learn to live her own life, be her own person.

Clearly she can't do this whilst in this abusive and negative relationship though. How old is your other daughter? Is she independent? Could your daughters spend some time together so the independent one can show the other one how great life is when you're not stuck in an abusive relationship?

I wonder if you could talk to your dd about unhealthy relationships - maybe start in abstract terms and let her narrow it down to her own experience? But don't expect her to own it to you. She may feel ashamed to have fallen for this guy (I did). She probably already does.

The counselling is likely to help her come to this realisation by herself as well. Encourage this.

Does she have many friends? Could you ask any of them to intervene? Are any of them mature enough to help? What about an older family-friend? I may have listened to someone li Ljubljana e that over my family... is there anyone your dd looks up to and admires who could help in this capacity? You'd have to trust them completely though.

you sound like a great mum BTW. I think it's incredibly unfair of people to say that your dd must have learned this behaviour from you. Like me, she may be "rebelling" against the norms she's learned. She may be looking to experience a different kind of life (but not realising that the one she's chosen isn't going to make her happy).

Sorry auto correct...

Someone like that... not Ljubljana - dunno what that even means!!

Oh and I should say that I left my abusive ex five years ago. I'm now happily married, and expecting my first child.

I am incredibly happy. My husband treats me like an equal and I do him. We're best friends as well as lovers. So your dd can (and probably will) have this in her life.

BoboChic Your comments are very unhelpful. The OP is doing her best to be supportive of her dd in very difficult circumstances. The doctor has prescribed anti depressants in the past and ARV1981 has just described eloquently how an abusive relationship can make a woman turn into a mouse who is afraid to answer the phone. Yet you seem to want to blame the mum! That seems very, very strange and very, very unhelpful.

ARV1981 thank you for sharing and showing graphically how a romantic relationship can go very wrong and how important it is for parents to be there for their kids even if they do not agree with their choices.

rhapsodyinblues keep posting, we are here for you.

I agree that bf sees your dd as convenient and I agree that you need to keep the door wide open for her. However you don't need to subsidise her to lo live with an abusive arse while she looks for a new wage job to tide her over til he clicks his fingers and keep her available to him.

Given all the concerns you have in you position I would state I was happy to help her financially but she would need to live at home for that. If she wants to live with him then she has to support herself.

I know when I've been depressed I've needed someone to take over for me for a little bit so that I could get back on my feet, and been utterly convinced I was thinking rationally when I wasn't. .
I really feel for you op. I hope it works out.

Minimum wage job. Not new wage.

This womanchild is enjoying all the benefits of being an adult ( a relationship, sex (not on her terms), a house, a degree and an allowance from her parents which pays for the bills, car and mobile phone. She also has a family home where she is always welcome, plus holidays).

However she seems incapable of accepting any of the responsibilities that come with those benefits (insisting on love and respect, contraception, a career, financial independence, making sensible life choices).

She has just graduated. Anyone in that situation ought to be flying around looking for work experience/internships. She's playing house with an abusive BF. And yes, I remember his atrocious behaviour to his landlord, employer and you. Shyness and social awkwardness do not cover it.

Are you paying her an allowance still OP? I think you need to tell her that by a certain time (new year) you will not be able to support her and she'll have to start paying for herself. I'm sure her self esteem will raise lots if she is earning. At this time of year lots of places will be recruiting for Christmas staff so that'll be a good place to start. I know she wants a job she wants to do but that's not how the world works. She need to be earning so she can support herself, that's what grown ups do.

Her boyfriend sounds like an arsehole, he really does but your daughter also doesn't seem to mind that others are paying for everything for her and it seems she making no effort to get a job.

Thank you ARV

(Ljubljana is a town in Slovenia, btw)

Sgtmajormummy I don't exactly t know what you mean when you someone is 'enjoying all the benefits of being an adult ( a relationship, sex (not on her terms)'. and '... incapable of accepting any of the responsibilities that come with those benefits (insisting on love and respect,...'

Is one really enjoying sex if it is on one's own terms?

What do you mean by insisting on love and respect?

Do you mean she is not expecting or demanding respect?

I think this is due to her lack of self esteem, which definitely needs working on. But it is not to do with being immature, it is to do with lack of self esteem, so age doesn't really come into it, in my mind. Of course naturally our self esteem can grow as we get older but implying that one should have it and if one doesn't one is a 'womanchild' jars with me (IMHO). Lots of people are naturally confident at any age.

There are loads and loads of people having sex and relationships who do not have jobs, or who do not pay their own rent. Are you suggesting if she doesn't get a job she shouldn't be in a relationship?

I think the point about her mum supporting her (or her parents) is that they may inadvertently be enabling her to not get a job yet and she does need a job but I think lots of young people are supported when they come back from university so it is not so unusual.

Then you said 'She's playing house with an abusive BF.' How is this 'playing'? If she is being manipulated or coerced this is not 'playing'.

I think like a lot of younger people she is not sure what is next and she really needs nudging in the right direction, because being read the riot act or whatever could drive her more into the arms of this very unsuitable man.

rhapsodyinblues I am wondering if 'Mind' might have some assertiveness training that would help her.

www.mindtools.com/pages/article/Assertiveness.htm

I think she may be 'playing house' (this is a phrase I used upthread) in the sense that she may be voluntarily or unavoidably shutting herself away from reality, for various reasons to do with abuse plus her own mental and emotional health.

Living in her BF's house, having a sexual relationship with him, cooking, cleaning, decorating, etc while elements of a real life that obviously happens day in and day out are a substitute for the real life she could and should be having, self directed, engaged in paid work, making decisions and moving forward towards personal goals that are not related to her BF's plans or timetable, or making decisions with her BF that are mutually beneficial, about their future if they see one together.

One of the reasons I would be concerned about pregnancy is that she might decide the way to make the household arrangement into a real family life for her was through having his baby. Sometimes a fantasy of 'happy ever after' can involve a baby. Or he might decide that a way for her to prove her love for him would be to abandon the NFP.

She seems vulnerable to pressure in the name of the ideal of love, and she also seems to be in search of happiness. How much she might lead herself on in pursuit of either one I do not know.

I wonder if Rhapsody is underestimating the effect that not taking ADs is having on her daughter? Both her doctor and her therapist think she needs medication but the OP has accepted her daughter's refusal to do so, as she's bought self-help books and is attempting positive thinking.

If she had cancer or a broken leg, or any physical illness, a refusal to seek treatment would not be acceptable. Mental health problems (even though they may have a chemical/physical cause) aren't seen in the same light. You can't magic away alzheimer's with a self-help book, or schizophrenia with positive thinking. Depression and anxiety aren't any different.

I've read the earlier threads and what sticks out is the daughter's total and utter passivity. There is nothing that Lobster Boy suggests that she will say 'no' to - exclude her parents from her graduation, let him sleep with other women, pay him to live in a building site etc The risk is that if she gets pregnant, that she won't have an abortion as it would mean taking some form of autonomous action. In which case she's stuck with some sort of contact with him for at least 18 more years.

In earlier threads the OP had good advice to play it cool, not interfere, not allow the boyfriend to position her as the bad guy. As things have moved on a lot, would it be crazy for the OP to put her foot down, tell her she's in an abusive situation and to chuck him? Does the daughter agree to everything she's told to do by everyone, or is it just the boyfriend?

Italian in the light of this and OP's other threads, that is my opinion. To answer your questions:

1. No, and she should know that.
2. Mature relationships are based on love and respect.
3. BF's open relationship proposal is not loving or respectful. She is accepting it.
4. She is running his house while putting her career on hold. That is playing house.

Your other comments about unemployed people having a loving relationship seemed a bit contrived. I was giving my opinion regarding a newly graduated 23 yo with her whole life waiting for her.

I think a 23 yo who asks her parents to find out where the toilet might be termed childish. Hence the term "womanchild".

I saw your other thread but even without having seen it I would have said something seems off just from your OP here.

I also think it's very likely that her MH would improve if she weren't in this controlling relationship. I wonder whether part of her lack of confidence is that he has been systematically undermining her confidence as abusive men so frequently do. What was she like before she met him?

mathanxiety re I think she may be 'playing house' (this is a phrase I used upthread) in the sense that she may be voluntarily or unavoidably shutting herself away from reality, for various reasons to do with abuse plus her own mental and emotional health.

yes, that does make sense, I guess I misread the word 'playing' to mean a light hearted sense but that is not the sense you and Sgtmajormummy are meaning. Sorry if I misunderstood. And thanks for explaining. I think you may be right.

Yes, I agree a baby could be a disaster at this moment!

Can I ask abandon the NFP., what's NFP - Natural family planning?

Sgtmajormummy Re in the light of this and OP's other threads, I'm afraid you are ahead of me here as I have not seen her other threads so was only commenting on this one, I can see there must be other info I don't have.

Thanks for answering my questions, yes, I agree with you.

Re Your other comments about unemployed people having a loving relationship seemed a bit contrived I was trying to work out what you meant, I can see what you mean now.

Well, re "womanchild" I would agree asking someone else where the toilets are shows a problem, but I would not call anyone that.

But broadly yes I agree to all the items. But I still maintain it is self esteem issues (maybe, based only on what is in this thread) and of course the depression and lack of anti depressants if she needs them.

Sorry, Sgtmajormummy, my comments sounded a bit bun-fighty and I certainly did not mean that.

Yes, NFP = natural family planning.

Open relationship. No contraception. In the words of a very wise women I know 'there are worse things you can catch than a baby'.

She will work it out in the end. When she does she will need you. I was similar to her when younger. Nearly married someone who was similar. I have no idea what was wrong with me or why I stayed with such a bell end. Part of it was pride. I couldn't admit I was wrong about the relationship. And he had me scared to leave as I'd be on my own. It was the realisation that I'd rather be on my own forever than with him that did it. It took 4 years. But I got there. So will she