Why ARE some men so horrible to women?

[jezestbelle]

I recently posted about an awful weekend in Paris essentially spoiled by street harassment or other womens sad stories about it. I have to admit it has kind of coloured my view of men as Ive returned to London and to work. I am not naive or stupid, I know that most people do not engage in this kind of behaviour, but Im just really trying to fathom why, what it is they who do it get out of it. I mean if occsaionally a woman cracked and said ok then I will go to bed with you as a result of catcalling or whatever well I still wouldnt agree with it but you could see a certain logic..but I refuse to believe that has ever happened.
Another thing Ive noticed is women I think are almost self hating and almost gravitate to men who treat them badly, again kind of unfathomable... Also am kind of fearful of the male sex drive right now more for my lovely DD than me. If it really is as powerful as they say can it actually be controlled? I know I may sound paranoid but this is where my head is at. I should add that I do know some really lovely kind and genuine guys who would never dream of harassing a woman, I am even wondering about them is it just that they have supreme self control or something?

pan i am interested to hear the view of a male who does not agree with harassment of women. I did not realise that it was so dangerous for a man to thwart this behaviour .Do you think it is equally dangerous for a woman to intervene or is it less of a challenge to this type of man?

I think it is less likely that a women would be assaulted compared to a bloke for intervening in a harassment situation, a hat full of verbal abuse yes, but physical harm would be rare. I still think for many men, even the harassing twats, there is a prevailing 'never hit a women' attitude, strangely for the latter group though intimidating, embarrassing and insulting women through street harassment is ok as that is 'just having a laugh innit'. While physical violence to women behind closed doors is sadly still a huge problem you rarely see men hitting a women in public, I strongly believe any would be male assaulter knows that if they did then they will probably end up on the receiving end of a kicking, ironically, probably at the hands of the same blokes who think the afore mentioned street harassment is ok!

Jdee

I used the expression 'picking ones battles carefully' up thread and that kind of applies to the point you are making in your first paragraph. For example, my old local pub used to be by a station, it was not uncommon for a women to come in on her own with her wheelie bag, order a glass of wine and read her book for half an hour or so while she waits for a train. Some blokes seemed to think this was an invitation to go and chat to her despte it being perfectly obvious she just wanted to be left in peace. Most guys sulk off when politely told by the women that their company is not required, but thre is always a few who simply dont get it. Sizing most of these blokes up and assessing the situation there was close to zero chance of these guys reacting with violence if they were politely told by me to just leave the women alone, they just honestly believed they were doing nothing wrong, or 'they were just being friendly'. Contrast that with stepping on to a carraige of pissed up Chelsea fans chanting 'get your tits out' to one of the women on board makes one think twice before stepping in to 'have a word'.

So men who are happy to sexually harass women would draw the line at physical violence due to some code of gallantry? Really?

There are plenty of men who are happy to commit sex offences in broad daylight.

Women generally fear escalation to a more serious sex offence, rather than being beaten up specifically.

This fear is based on experience of standing up to blokes harassing them. It can often make things worse.

I've been chased down the street in the past, threatened with rape etc.

Why? Because some men had fathers and brothers and uncles who behaved like this and mothers who thought it was OK for their 'men' to behave like this and treated it as 'boys will be boys'. And friends who see it as a sort of male-bonding exercise.

Those same mothers and fathers would treat their DDs like precious jewels because they take it as inevitable that all men behave the same way as their sons and need to protect them.

And if the men in question were actually asked they probably think that women secretly like it even though they would never admit it, because all women want to be desirable to men above all else. Don't they?

Pan

There's definitely a 'lose-lose' aspect to this. If you tell them to get lost you get 'can't you take a joke/compliment/bit of banter' or 'I was just being friendly', if you engage at all then you can't get rid of them.

I think for some men there is a sense that a woman's private space is in fact a public space, and they are within their rights to park there.

There's also a power thing going on, in that sometimes a man will only leave a woman alone when told to by another man - her opinion or agency doesn't come into it. I've had to do the thing of pretending to be a woman's boyfriend to get a guy to leave her alone (FYI - that happened once in my life; I am also now married to said woman).

Why? Because some men had fathers and brothers and uncles who behaved like this and mothers who thought it was OK for their 'men' to behave like this and treated it as 'boys will be boys'. And friends who see it as a sort of male-bonding exercise.

My dad would have been ashamed of me and my brothers if we had ever treated women this way, and we did not grow up in a particularly forward thinking time or place.

"My dad would have been ashamed of me and my brothers if we had ever treated women this way, and we did not grow up in a particularly forward thinking time or place."

Well exactly your dad would have been ashamed. So would mine. Hence your attitudes.

JDee, I think that's the point. Your dad didn't think it was an acceptable way to behave so it's not at all surprising that you grew up to see it as unacceptable.

Equally, some men clearly think it is acceptable, they were probably raised by people who thought it was acceptable, and will probably raise their children to be just the same.

Twinklestein

Yes really, there are plenty of blokes out there who honestly don't see street harassment as 'wrong' but would never dream of publically striking a women. Yes its a paradox in terms of attitude but it exists nonetheless.

There are plenty of men out there who will grope a women using the relative anonymity a crowded bus or train provides to their wondering hands. There are plenty of men who will expose themselves to lone female joggers or walkers down the park. These key point being that these men engineer situations that keeps the chances of them being caught to a minimum. If your use of the phrase 'in broad daylight' is to infer that plenty of men have no issues sexually assaulting a women down the high street in full view of the public then I will respectfully disagree you on that one.

". I would like to say I am very very sorry for all those male and female, realistically unfortunately mostly the latter who have experienced unpleasantness like this. We as men should all know better and you do not deserve to have to deal with it."

Can I just say how lovely it is to hear a man publicly say this. Thank you.

PanGalactic, these situations are crap but I am not sure about your belief that men will get assaulted more quickly than women. It is just a different form of assault. The woman is already being assaulted, she quite likely will get physically touched up as well, and the harm that does is just as real as physical violence. It is also, as you demonstrate, taken far less seriously.

But I do understand your position. No one wants to be ganged up on by a bunch of men. Especially women.

The firs quote being from allofmycolours.

For guys who do stuff like that, it has nothing to do with attraction and everything to do with control.

Just like when you hear of guys raping old ladies. It's about power, and fear, and control.

If a bunch of women sat and cat-called men, those self same men would be calling them prostitutes and sluts etc.,

It's just about control.

"If your use of the phrase 'in broad daylight' is to infer that plenty of men have no issues sexually assaulting a women down the high street in full view of the public then I will respectfully disagree you on that one."

I wouldn't because she's right, it happens.

Pan I appreciate that you're trying, but word up - don't presume to speak for all men, an don't attempt to mansplain sexual harassment and sex offences to women.

You've never actually been on the receiving end.

insightful comment re women are not allowed to have private space . This sheds light on pushing legs into the woman in the next seat; putting an arm over the back of the seat the woman is sitting in; being in women's changing rooms ,even lingerie; pushing into an occupied 1 stall women's washroom;etc

LOL mansplain

Point taken Twinkle

Never thought I would ever be acused of 'mansplaining'

I have to confess I fecking hate that word

pan, I think disagreeing when women say 'sexual harassment happens in broad daylight' was bound to upset people. Because many women have been subjected to sexual harassment in broad daylight.

I think the idea that these men don't know that what they're doing is very wrong, and I don't think it's a massive leap from "is prepared to invade my personal space even when I ask him to leave me alone" to "is unlikely to take no for an answer". Did you read the Schrodinger's rapist thing linked to upthread?

wooooo here comes the torrent VoD

the disconnect is scary.

Find me a woman who hasn't been catcalled. Either a crude sexual comment, or been told she's ugly (or some version of this). And yet, it is hard to find a man who will acknowledge it happens, never mind a man who will say "yes, I was guilty of this in the past, I have letched inappropriate, made offensive, sexually crude comments that weren't welcomed".

Pan "Yes really, there are plenty of blokes out there who honestly don't see street harassment as 'wrong' but would never dream of publically striking a women. Yes its a paradox in terms of attitude but it exists nonetheless."

totally agree. I don't even see it as a paradox. It's like there are "levels". for me, the level of cat calling and making sexual comments to total strangers, or aggressively chatting them up in the face of them trying to run away, is something that many men will do. When told to go away, they might say something nasty but I think a fair chunk would leave it there.

Also, those same men might well be horrified if someone hit a woman.

so in terms of levels, what we need to do is to get a better understanding - or legal situation? - established where this level is categorised properly instead of just being something that happens and women are supposed to put up with.

I agree with the Schroedinger's rapist thing but I also agree that a lot of men won't go further than nasty remarks. The trouble of course is the Schroedinger element - when I react I have no idea which category my harasser falls into.

You need to just listen to the women.

Precisely, I couldn't have put it better myself.

I would perhaps add that a certain number of men really do find the modern world very difficult to handle. Of course there are women who have this experience too, although it seems their responses are more internalised and self=destructive than the mens. The appreciation of what it is to be a man as depicted in the media has not really moved on with the reality and therefore men who lack context or emotional education get extremely mixed messages which they then cannot process. In general I suspect there is a feeling that men in general-while undoubtedly experiencing many many more unearned advantages and privileges than women still-in the developed world are experiencing a relative and fairly sharp decline in their position in society while women are experiencing a long overdue upturn. Not all that many men have worked out that this decline is actually perhaps to their and the benefit of society at large, and those that are emotionally inarticulate seek to lash out and redress this balance. As a man I am in no way condoning nor excusing this repulsive conduct. This is our issue and we must find a way of dealing with it. It is made out to be an issue of women but it is nothing of the sort. I personally have only recently come to the context of honesty and self depreciation rather than trying to pretend to be something I would not be comfortable being anyway, rich, goodlooking smooth or whatever. To be frank I think we are struggling as a gender and will only move on when we admit that and maybe then the nonsense can stop and some serious soul searching replace it. Apologies for going on.