Why ARE some men so horrible to women?

[jezestbelle]

I recently posted about an awful weekend in Paris essentially spoiled by street harassment or other womens sad stories about it. I have to admit it has kind of coloured my view of men as Ive returned to London and to work. I am not naive or stupid, I know that most people do not engage in this kind of behaviour, but Im just really trying to fathom why, what it is they who do it get out of it. I mean if occsaionally a woman cracked and said ok then I will go to bed with you as a result of catcalling or whatever well I still wouldnt agree with it but you could see a certain logic..but I refuse to believe that has ever happened.
Another thing Ive noticed is women I think are almost self hating and almost gravitate to men who treat them badly, again kind of unfathomable... Also am kind of fearful of the male sex drive right now more for my lovely DD than me. If it really is as powerful as they say can it actually be controlled? I know I may sound paranoid but this is where my head is at. I should add that I do know some really lovely kind and genuine guys who would never dream of harassing a woman, I am even wondering about them is it just that they have supreme self control or something?

Whirlpool - I step in when I see that happening. One time I went up to a woman being very aggressively chatted up in a bookshop (!) I could see she was really uncomfortable so just went to her and said "hiiiiii! I thought it was you!" and she gave me a big hug and said "so nice to see you" and we walked out of the shop. The guy was so confused!!

then she apologised to me for hugging me, but obviously that was fine and probably the right thing to do to really convince him!

but how awful that she couldn't just mind her own business in a bookshop.

Nice one lorelei!

I think men need to be far more discriminating and careful about all interactions with women tbh. The bookshop incident sounded horrible. I don't really see the need for a man to speak to a woman he doesn't know until she has indicated that she accepts him doing so. It is not that difficult to simply show restraint amd stay quiet isnit?

Most women I know would think that to engage with cat calling like that would be both a waste of time and would compound their humiliation (i.e. they would think they would be making a spectacle of themselves). Either way, there are no consequences to the men for doing this.

I've engaged before with cat callers before. They have usually told me that I'm taking it too seriously and should learn to take a joke at which point you then have to justify yourself when really all you wanted to do is walk down the bloody street without that sense of apprehension.

Lose-lose situation really.

i've intervened as well. old guy of about fifty trying relentlessly to chat to a young spanish student about 35 years his junior. he really was not giving up. I said to him, "look, would you leave the poor child alone, no child wants to chat to a strange man older than her father''. I was deliberately saying child to make him cop on to himself. still see him at the bus stop unfortunately.

I don't 'engage' with cat callers. I just give them the Teacher Look. It's a look that can stop a teenager at 10 paces and usually works with them.

In my yoof I worked as a general labourer / dogsbody on various building sites for a while and I found the workman stereotype to be wholly accurate. I remember all too well riding as a passenger in a transit van as we ran various errands between different sites and listening to the driver beep the horn and his mates shouting out the windows at any attractive women (or in many cases school girls). Sensing my general discomfort I was advised that 'they all love it' and anyway they are just 'having a laugh'. Lunchtime reading was either The Sport/Star/Sun with nuanced discussions about topless 21 year old Donna from Doncaster. While I appreciate things may have moved on a bit in the 15-20 years since given the prevalence of it back then I would be staggered if such behaviour has been eradicated despite various awareness schemes that have been rolled out.

With regards to other men intervening and challenging said behaviour it is easier said than done as unfortunately threats or actual violence is an all too familiar default response by these twats, especially if alcohol is involved. We can all do our bit in challenging casual misogyny and letchy beavhoiur in the office where it is probably very unlikely you going to get your head kicked in but out on the streets or on public transport it is very different. In my experience, it is generally a minority of men from a certain demographic that I shall just call 'white van man', no different to the blokes I describe in my first paragraph, poorly educated guys with a stunning lack of awareness of the impact of their actions. I also agree as others have alluded to above with regards to it being about power rather then sex, these guys know there is very little chance of their behavior being challenged by the victim of their catcalls/whistles/crude chat up lines, it gives them a little thrill that they made some random stranger feel shit / threatened. There is also an element of not wanting to be seen as 'not one of the lads' by the the alpha members of the group. Going back to my first paragraph I was a 17 year old lad doing some summer work, I was dying of embarassment the way my coworkers were behaving but I was terrified of challenging the status quo as my life on site would have been made a misery as I would probably have been seen as 'gay' for finding their actions hilarious.

Exactly Pan, our culture supports this behaviour and it's damaging for men and women. Bottom line is objectification, women are dehumanised across the board and in all medias in varying degrees of subtlety, this message is received by everyone. If we stopped objectifying women then society might start to treat them as people, not things.

"i've intervened as well. old guy of about fifty trying relentlessly to chat to a young spanish student about 35 years his junior. he really was not giving up. I said to him, "look, would you leave the poor child alone, no child wants to chat to a strange man older than her father''. I was deliberately saying child to make him cop on to himself. still see him at the bus stop unfortunately."

Interesting. Would you have intervened if he had been 25?

pan, the 'it's too dangerous for me to intervene' idea really upsets me. What that means is that the woman being harassed is left to deal with a potentially dangerous man alone. Which is pretty crappy really.

Not that a blame you, or anyone else for not getting involved in a dangerous situation. But maybe if your risk assessment of the situation tells you the harasser is dangerous, calling the police should be at least considered.

zas, I agree that it's not that hard to stay quiet.

the bookshop incident was ridiculous - I was browsing cards & wrapping paper - happily it takes me ages to choose - and I saw her move from a rack of books, where he tried to talk to her, over to the calendars - he followed her and kept talking - and then she moved to another book section - he followed her and kept talking.

so I figured I had pretty good reason for stepping in. It was clear from his talk and swagger that he just thought "I'm good looking, well dressed, if I persist this has got to work". TBH I think he probably realised what we were doing but I hope that means he understood how to behave in future and I hope he was embarrassed by it. But he was so full of himself, I doubt it.

pan I see your point but I have also had comments from men in the workplace - usually senior positions - and can't help but think if men didn't have to see the women regularly, cat calls would be just as prevalent in most workplaces. I've commented on another thread about this - I think cat calls are done by builders because the men are in a prime position on the street and don't have to see the women again, therefore they can get away with it. I often feel many more men would do it if they thought they could. When out for a night it is clear a lot of the comments are not from builders but men with other professions. The danger of putting it (cat calling/misogyny) down to a set class/type is that you ignore the problem; it isn't actually simply 'working class men' doing this - it is across the board. Some men just hide their misogyny better and are more aware of public norms.

one of the interesting things that came out of the recent hacking was that many of the hacker group had mn accounts .

BertrandRussell, if she'd looked as uncomfortable as she looked fending off small talk from a much older man I would have intervened yes. She looked really uncomfortable. She literally came and stood behind me when I intervened.

"BertrandRussell, if she'd looked as uncomfortable as she looked fending off small talk from a much older man I would have intervened yes. She looked really uncomfortable. She literally came and stood behind me when I intervened."

You do seem to be suggesting that it was his age that was the issue, though. Otherwise, why did you place so much emphasis on it?

oh for god sake. He was salivating over the poor child. From her point I view, I think, the age gap added to her confusion and discomfort, but I don't know. I did the right thing intervening though. Perhaps it's a different issue from the one that's being discussed. I don't mind if people show a little bit of friendliness on the street but they should know when to stop. The fact that a man of fifty something thinks 'i know, I'll chat up this young girl'' (bearing in mind that he could perhaps have chatted to the woman in her forties if he just innocently wanted a chat) but no, he looked around me and thought, Ill "chat" to the girl there. The girl who doesn't speak English!
Now. You'll be implying I was jealous next !?

MagalyMaman "The girl who doesn't speak English!"

This made me lol. I am English but with Indian heritage and appearance. I have been approached by men asking me if I am new to London and can they show me around? The disappointment on their faces when I open my mouth and tell them I'm London born and bred and know it like the back of my hand... well, I'd say it's funny, it was when I was younger. But now it's happened so many times I realise that what they are looking for is someone they perceive as vulnerable - not so funny.

In my 20s, anyone who started chatting me up with "where are you from?" and was disappointed by the answer "here" was someone to avoid.

Totally agree with the poster who said this is across all classes, cultures, worker types btw.

someone also mentioned the "wanting an Asian woman because they are all about family". Men say this to my face. I usually get up and walk away.

^pan, the 'it's too dangerous for me to intervene' idea really upsets me. What that means is that the woman being harassed is left to deal with a potentially dangerous man alone. Which is pretty crappy really.

Not that a blame you, or anyone else for not getting involved in a dangerous situation. But maybe if your risk assessment of the situation tells you the harasser is dangerous, calling the police should be at least considered.^

I guess I should clarify the situations I have witnessed and am alluding to have taken place on a late night busy bus or train full of drunk people where a man or group of men have tried to initiate clearly unwanted small talk/harassment with a women. They were not threatening violence, just embarrassing her, still not right of course. I have offered to swap places/seats with women in these situations and have been rewarded with verbal abuse, have been spat at and have even been followed after I have got off the bus, scary stuff. While men rarely get unwanted catcalls / whistled at etc they are way more likely to be a victim of random violence in public. I am fairly big bloke and in shape, thanks to twenty odd years of playing rugby and I like to think I can handle myself but I still go on red alert when a bunch of pissed yobs come anywhere near me, I cross the street the or move to the other side of the room. I hate being put into these moral situations to intervene as I have seen all too often good Samaritans get assaulted. These men just can?t be reasoned with, even just pointing out politely that maybe the women they are targeting would rather be left alone is seen as challenge to Mr Alpha male whose default response is to reestablish his top dog status through taunts, threats or actual violence. It is all very Neanderthal but this is how quite a few guys behave, especially in groups and when alcohol is involved. So yes, I pick my battles very carefully indeed, it?s a shit state of affairs, I don?t just completely ignore it, I have called the police in the past, fetched the guard on the train, spoken to the driver on the bus etc. Yes when it is just one or two blokes being twats to a women I have used my size to intimidate them into getting off the carriage or at least cease their behavior, sadly that is the only language they know, but even then there are risks involved that I feel deeply uncomfortable taking.

yes, she had long dark hair and looked obviously foreign (i'm not in the UK). She had a rucksack with the name of her language school.

I agree about perceived vulnerability, it brings out the dangerous "rescuer" in some men....

pan that's the tightrope that every woman walks every time she's harassed on the street. If a woman don't want the attention and says so she runs the risk of violent reprisals. So when men don't intervene 'in case it gets violent' I think they need to be aware that the woman they are looking at is already trying to work out how to escape if/when the harasser gets angry at a refusal. The woman is already in a dangerous situation. Seeing other people around you turn a blind eye is very scary, particularly when you are young.

Again, I don't mean that you're doing anything wrong in your current approach, that isn't for me to judge. I'm just trying to explain how it feels to the woman.

pan i am interested to hear the view of a male who does not agree with harassment of women. I did not realise that it was so dangerous for a man to thwart this behaviour .Do you think it is equally dangerous for a woman to intervene or is it less of a challenge to this type of man?

What Amelia said

Pans response does sound spot on I must say. I am a man and only of average build. I have only very rarely witnessed a scene like this, and intervened once when on a train and a group of soccer fans already fairly drunk were sitting next to a young girl who looked terrified and saying how harmless they were. I intervened by pretending to have an epileptic fit and screeching in a amde up foreign language while lying down in the middle of the aisle of the train. I know it was weird but I just could not have overpowered 5 or so men, and it worked. Well I am sure the girl in question thought I was weird but frankly I would rather this than she feel she might be assaulted the fear of which is probably as bad as the reality. The men stopped anyway and another man offered to call the guard by which time the train was at its destination. Derren Brown the magician has a book withe a chapter all about these kinds of defusing and distracting tactics. I would like to say I am very very sorry for all those male and female, realistically unfortunately mostly the latter who have experienced unpleasantness like this. We as men should all know better and you do not deserve to have to deal with it.

amarmai

It seems to me that this sort of behaviour is so pervasive that there could be any number of situations and responses - a gentle "leave her alone" might suffice in one situation where as another could escalate into something else. From the stories I have read there seems to be no one particular 'type' of harasser and therefore no one way to deal with it.

One observation I would make is that a lot of people when confronted with a threatening situation tend to freeze a bit and just wait for it to blow over, and don't react or intervene until it's completely necessary. You then spend the next week thinking "I should have done/said something..."