A friend accused of DV - should I stop talking to him?

[DeeDeeR]

I'm a single mum of a 8 year old boy. I separated from my husband 3 years ago due to DV. I met a guy two months ago and we have become great friends. I'm slowly starting to see him as potential for something more but haven't shared this with him yet.

He separated from his wife in January 2015 after he woke up one morning to find her and their 2 year son gone. He then received an ex parte non-molestation order. His ex wife accused him of DV since their start of the relationship in 2007 and submitted photos of bruises that she took in 2012 ans 2013 (a nose bleed, what appears to be a black eye and bruises on the arm). She also submitted a tape recording of an argument between them where he can be heard pleading with her to stop seeing other men behind his back, to just leave him and that if she doesn't leave and continues to have affairs he'll assault her. Although no assault takes place in the recording. The recording was made by her in secret one week before she left him.

Believe it or not, he told me all this on the first day I met him at the pub. At the Non-molestation order hearing he denied the allegations of physical assault but admitted to making threats. He said that his wife had subjected him to emotional abuse shortly after their son was born after she told him that she didnt love him and wanted to leave. However, she didnt leave but carried on with the marriage. This caused tension between the two and she would often go out of her way to antagonise him and goad him about her seeing other men. They had heated arguments but he claims he never assaulted her. He told the judge that his wife met someone else and has set up so that she could end the marriage in a way that she could get full custody of their son and restrict contact.

The judge considered the evidence and made "No finding of fact" in regards to the allegations but upheld the order since she thought it was better they be kept apart for a year.

She repeated the DV allegations at the first child custody hearing in Feb 2015 and was offered a 'Fact Finding' however she turned it down citing that the abuse was only emotional and financial. So the judge ordered a social service report, where she then repeated the physical abuse again.

He then received another social service report in August 2015 recommending that his son have regular unsupervised access to him since the son clearly misses the father and is visibly upset when having to say goodbye to his dad when contact centre visits come to end.

Two days after the report his ex gets him arrested for allegedly assaulting her in 2009. She claims he smashed her head across a sink and then went on holiday with mates for 3 weeks. She then repeated all the allegations she made in the family proceedings to the police.

He is currently released on bail and is being investigated.

I know all this since he opened up to me and showed me all his and her court documents. He is self representing in court and is alone in all of this and in need of friends. He says he is innocent but I'm scared what if he's not. Then again, if he is innocent I dont want to walk away and ruin a relationship with a decent guy.

His ex wifes story just has too many holes in in:

• She's a solicitor, and if he had subjected her to DV since 2007 why report it only in 2015. Why didnt she leave.

• why did she wait to tell the police shortly after the social service report and a week before the final hearing

• why did she turn down a fact finding at the first hearing

Then again, he did threaten her but he has self referred to anger management courses and speaking to him he comes across as someone who is genuinely sorry for the threats and is seeking to address is.

I was subjected to DV during my marriage but the minute it happened I walked away. I know not all women are like this. Not sure if I should give him benefit of doubt or just walk away.

Playing devil's advocate - how do you prove emotional abuse? My ex was EA but I couldn't prove it unless I got the kids to testify on my behalf and I would prefer to avoid that situation.

On here I have read many shocking posts like fathers who have been physically abusive or heavy drug users being granted unsupervised access. I naively thought that the ex and children would be protected by the law.

Does he deny FA and EA? There was a thread on here by a solicitor with a dad cohabiting with another solicitor who was FA towards her and the dd but seemed shocked that it was FA and she felt that they had different spending outlooks (spender vs saver) I learned that abuse can happen to anyone despite education.

If he's attending anger classes that's great and I hope that they are more useful than some of the parenting courses that I have attended.

If he is telling the truth then it sounds like he will be spending months (if not years) fighting his ex. Does he really have the energy or time to be investing in a new relationship? This time in your relationship should be happy and carefree.he admits being angry and making threats is he confident that he is going to avoid taking things out on you when he's only been on a short course?

What if he was a woman who admitted to make threats and then self referred and completed Anger Management courses.

Would you guys be advising me to stay away and avoid contact with her?

I like the guy but I wont be pursuing anything else. I'll just be a friendly ear to advise him. Considering that he attends Fathers Support groups who give him men biased advised (similar to this place), I think it would be good for him to see both arguments to help his case.

Bias and hypocrisy is detrimental for victims, female and male.

I can only judge people based on what I see.

Lostlagguage,

Im not entering a relationship with him. Im just gonna offer advise. He needs it and its important that there is balance to the male centric advise he gets from FnF and other dads groups.

I would say the same to mother that come here. Some of the comments here have been incredibly biased and hypocritical just like what Ive seen on the dads forums. It doesnt help anyone.

He admitted to making a threat in the heat of the moment. It was the one his ex secretly recorded. He made the admission before he knew about the recording as well, since she never brought it up until later in the family proceedings. It actually ended up exposing her emotional abuse, hence turning the tables in terms of custody and why she suddenly felt compelled to get him arrested.

I understand that many women will tolerate abuse BUT in her case she has had multiple opportunities to get him arrested and convicted since they separated and since the Non-molestation order, and she did nothing until he got a positive report about child contact.

• She could have got him arrested on the day of the non-molestation order. Nothing

• She could have got him arrested after the court offered a fact finding to investigate the allegations. she turned it down and still did nothing

• she could have got him arrested at the second hearing or at the social service interview when she repeated the allegations.

• Since separating she has consistently told everyone that he is a monster and needs to be caged. Its in the report. yet she did nothing UNTIL he got a report saying that her contact recommendation is not in the interest of the child.

He can see the child without ever coming into contact with her. This is nothing but a blatant and malicious attempt to damage him in court.

To be fair, my main concern is his son. He needs to see both parents and its obvious his mother is hell bent on limiting contact.

I am a mother. My ex was a complete tool BUT he was a loving dad and I know he would never hurt our child. Regardless of what I feel about him I would never deny him contact with our son.

Yes, I was concerned that he might turn on our son. So I insisted to him that if wanted to be part of our sons life he should complete a DV course and Anger management. he did it and now he sees our son regulary BUT I have never spoken to him or seen him in 5 years.

Its the child that matters.

This guy has addressed his anger and did the course. He was the primary carer for god sake. If she was that concerned why did she leave him with the son when they were together? another hole in her story. The mother should let him see his son and keep their issues separate.

DeeDee

I am male, and from what you have posted,

friend and confidant yes.

Relationship, no

anger management doesn't work

how fortunate that the one threat he made she recorded, or maybe he made many and she managed to record only one.

And interesting that her silence riled him up to a point where he threatened violence. Because it had to have been something she did that made him violent, of course.

Have you considered that he is getting you 'on side' because perpetrators may believe that presenting a current stable relationship with no DV issues is a good character reference for them in court?

My DV ex would happily present his new woman in court -as he self litigates too - as 'testament' to his gentle nature and lack of threat or violence, thinking it would supersede his past actions with me.

Don't be fooled by all the honesty your partner is displaying, and the apparent full disclosure. At the end of the day, she has photo evidence of serious physical assault. It's hard to give yourself black eyes! But he's denying it was him...

As for the fact she's an astute criminal lawyer and should apparently respond more swiftly to DV in her own life ; even professionals working in the field of DV are not immune to long drawn out emotional incapacitation in their own personal experiences. They don't neccessarily respond and find solution to their problem any quicker just because they work in the field or related field.

You can't argue 'She could have got him arrested on the day' of the incidents, but didn't.

Yes, we all go through that dilemma, whether we are lawyers subjected to abuse or not. She doesn't neccessarily snap into calculated, unemotional lawyer mode in the middle of an incident.

That's my opinions anyway.
I was aware of what I could do to deflect or resolve DV issues as they happened, but in that heat of the moment, I wasn't thinking rationally, and by the time next morning rolled round, well, in the cold light of morning as they say, your reasoning is clearer, and I do remember reasoning that 'it wouldn't happen again'. Except it did every time.

My advice is to put your relationship with him on hold until this court case is over. But you have invested in him as someone who needs your help, so I predict you won't. As other have said, you are still in that cycle, else you wouldn't be doubting your judgement and asking for views from strangers.

Good luck OP.

You've known him for 8 weeks. I personally don't think that's very long for you to be saying things like "I will make sure he gets counseling". In 8 weeks it should all be still new and exciting and fun not so heavy and intense. He shouldn't really be laying all of this on you.

Based on what Greenlandrover has said it might be worth considering if he is indeed manipulating you.

I know you feel that some of us wouldn't give the same advice to a man but I can tell you I have a friend who has a very long, complicated and toxic relationship with a very manipulative woman and I am always advising him to break it off.

People are just trying to help you here.

I think the OP has got her preferred version of events lodged in her mind and nothing we say will change that. Two final points from me then I'm bailing

OP asked me why it could give her professional bother. Well in a court application she presumably will have been required to make a "statement of truth" - giving a statement you know to be untrue is lying to a court and contempt of court. The SRA take a very dim view of both.

Also city lawyers have VERY different training and experience to those who deal with family or criminal matters. They're pretty much different professions in all but name. The OP is falling into the trap that some of my extended family get in where they assume just because I am a solicitor I know all the law and exactly what to do next in their boundary dispute, brush with the police or messy divorce. My practice is so far removed from those sorts of law it would be the equivalent of expecting your dentist to advise authoritatively on your bladder problems.

The tape doesn't make sense. It just doesn't fit with the idea that she's scared to leave or scared to report. Even if his claims of emotional abuse from her are rubbish, why the hell would she purprosely antagonise her abuser by going on about seeing other men?

Men can be victims of the patriarchy too. In particular being taught "boys don't cry" and being demonstrated that violence and agression are the way to sort things rather than taking about emotions. I've seen it before - men with severe emotional difficulties who resort to aggression out of frustration because they know no other way. It's still his problem to sort out - but voluntarily going to anger management classes implies he is trying to.

If I posted here as a woman, saying my partner was emotionally abusive, and I was desperately trying to save the relationship, loved him, and was begging him to stop seeing other women... and said we'd argued a lot, and I'd hit him in frustration because he wouldn't listen, wouldn't treat me right, and was just laughing at me and having affairs - what would you say? I reckon it would be a majority of "LTB - he's abusive and has no respect for you" with a few "You need therapy/anger management because violence isn't really ok" thrown in.

We don't know that he was violent. It seems very likely he was, until you look at the tape aspect. Is he randomly accusing her of affairs and she's denying it? Is she admitting it and laughing at him? The latter doesn't suggest someone who is being abused.

Regardless, as PP have said, he needs a shitload of counselling. Nothing wrong with being friends but you need strong bondaries that you will have to constantly re-assess to make sure you stick to them. In a way, you have to sort of assume "worst case scenario" - protect yourself and be aware he may be lying. And a relationship? No. Definitely not.

IMO you are dangerously deluded. Dangerous for you, dangerous for your son and dangerous for anyone who has suffered DV who encounters you.

Agree with other posters who say you are far too involved. After knowing this man for 8 weeks you are 'great friends', are taking responsibility for arranging therapy on his behalf and have taken a very firm view of his role in a series of events that happened before you knew him. You are far too involved too quickly. You might benefit from therapy yourself.

If I were wrongly accused of a crime I would be extremely circumspect about who I told and I wouldn't confide in strangers.

Others may be inclined to shout the injustice from the rooftops but, as I'm aware that so many take the view that there is no smoke without fire, I would prefer to confide my ordeal solely in those who know and love me until such time as I had been exonerated of any false allegation(s) but, even then, it would not be a subject I would raise with strangers.

I'm therefore suspicious as to why this man told you "all this on the first day I met him at the pub" as it seems to me that he's either injudicious or is attempting to use what would you have perceived to be openness and honesty to garner support for his account of events.

The fact that he was a stranger to you until you met him at the pub suggests that this was something of a 'boy meets girl' (or vice versa) event where sexual attraction, subliminal or otherwise, comes into play and this can influence us to be unduly sympathetic to the object of attraction.

This appears to be borne out by you "starting to see him as potential for something more" and, as it's clear you have no intention of running for the hills, I would advise you to endeavour to claw back the emotional investment you have already made in him and proceed with extreme caution in your dealings with him.

Women becoming primary carers makes it harder for them to succeed in careers since they need to concentrate on children, whereas men (the father) will have more time to pursue their careers. Its just another way of keeping us down.??

To each their own, I was so happy to be the primary carer of my child, I considered that to be one of the advantages of being woman and do feel sorry for men. Mind you I am talking about back in the day, it looks like a lot of things have improved for fathers since them.

As for getting involved with someone accused of DV, I had a friend who was accused of sexually assaulting a 12-year-old girl. Like you I didn't believe the accusation but at the same time I could never leave him unsupervised with my dd after that, could I?

I am questioning is a lawyer, with criminal and family law training, would tolerate DV without once in their entire marriage reporting it to the police, family or even friends

What kind of law does she practice exactly? You say she has training in criminal and family law, but not what she's working at now.

She may well know how hard it is to make DV charges stick. That it's easy to report, but hard to prove. That non-mols don't offer that much protection, that they are hard to police if someone is determined to break them.

Why do you think that as a lawyer, she would be any less ashamed and humiliated by abuse than other women. That she would be any less prone to trauma bonds, the 'but I love him" line, the belief that she won't get better, that he might change, that her son needs a father, that she doesn't want to ruin his life.

I posted earlier under a different name changed as instructed by (Mumsnet).

I wasn't going to post again, but actually this is bugging me, your constant comments about holes in her story and well why didn't she do X or Y or Z are exactly why women and in particular women who are seen to be well educated or in professional roles don't report.

Because not only do they get the general disbelief, the picking holes in stories, but if they've stayed hoping like so many that it will change or not actually realising how bad it is they also get the 'well you should have known better, you have access to money, resources etc, you have no excuse'

Oh and the recording you've referred to several times, about her having affairs, this was one of my friends ex's favourites, He wouldn't do the shouty angry accusations, he'd cry and beg and nothing she said would convince him that she wasn't having an affair, so it just became easier to not go out, to not call friends. He'd beg her to admit it so they could work through it etc.

I'm not saying that women don't have affairs in fact I've post this am about an ex-friend who was/is cheating on her husband.

but this guy has so many red flags he's practically bunting.

I agree Anhiliated, bottom line is OPhas the hots for him so she's tying herself in knots (with red flag bunting) to approve his version.

Indeed. She has only had his side of the story.

She's believing, as so many do, that his disclosure of all this stuff cannot be manipulative because he is 'being honest and upfront and why would he tell me bad stuff about him?'

It is delusional thinking. The speed this has progressed in 8 weeks from meeting a stranger in a pub to sorting out counselling for him and being heavily involved in the family law case (reading all his paperwork) and the victim blaming of other women is heavily indicative that she has not had sufficient support after her own DV relationship and is falling right into another one IMO.

But she won't listen, because she's already on the hook.

I'm another one who thinks it is highly suspicious that he was so "upfront and open" about his situation very early on. It smacks to me of trying to get the OP on his side.

OP, not sure if you're still reading, but I thought I'd comment from a different angle - focusing on you, rather than him.

You've made a lot of comments about how you want to help him. You're coming across quite strongly as a rescuer/saviour type. I say that as someone who has very strong tendencies in this regard herself. What do you get out of this?

It reminds me a lot of the drama triangle. The roles of persecutor (ex), victim (him) and rescuer (you) are very clear. While you say you'll be involved as a friend only, are you confident you can set and keep these boundaries? And what happens when the roles change - when he turns around and says that he'd lost his faith in women, but you had restored it, but now, now, you're letting him down by doing xyz? When he starts painting you as the persecutor, will you start running harder and faster to please him so you get to be the rescuer again?

I'm not saying this will definitely happen. I'm just saying that your situation looks worryingly close to the early stages of this dynamic, and I think you're going to need to work very hard not to get sucked into it.

Only read the initial post but honestly, I'd steer clear of this mess.

In short - not your circus, not your monkeys.

Walk away with your life (and that of your son) unaffected by his mess.