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Original poster

Feminism - but is there some truth in the stereotype of gender roles?

296 replies

loveyoumore2 · 18/06/2015 16:34

I understand that feminism has its place, 100%. The way women are treated in some parts of the world, (and I will agree), in the western world to an extent, is wrong. And feminism is needed to that effect.

What I can't get my head around is that on some level, generally speaking, I believe women are more suited to the stereotypical 'woman's jobs,' and likewise, men are suited to their jobs. I embrace the fact that I am the one staying at home and look after my kids while my husband works (and this is coming from someone who has a very successful career and earned pretty much the same as my husband). I love cooking his dinner and cleaning the house. I don't feel oppresed. I am also attracted to my husbnad because he embraces his stereotypical male role of the breadwinner. I feel proud of my role as a women and I am proud that it differs from my husband's general role.

I know that the point of feminism is that everyone should be free to do what they want, male or female, and that men, if they want, should have the right to stay home with the kids.

But does anyone agree that on some basic level, instinctive almost, that for the majority of people (again, not all), that women do have women desires that are typical of a women, and the same for men?

ie. women are generally better at cleaning and tidying and naturally take the reigns, men prefer heavy lifting and DIY, women will be more motherly with kids than men, etc. NB. I know this is not always the case, but I am speaking generally. I believe stereotypes in this instance, are based on natural differences between men and women that we will never get away from. (Again stressing that there are exceptions).

OP posts:
LashesandLipstick · 19/06/2015 13:12

Fearless, what do you think should happen to those who are the exceptions?

CultureSucksDownWords · 19/06/2015 13:12

Fearless91, why is it ignorant to have a different opinion to you? Where is the conclusive evidence that humans are "hard wired" differently based on sex?

ErrolTheDragon · 19/06/2015 13:13

' I think men and women are completely different'

completely? really? Other than the binary 'can bear and nurse children/father children' do you really think that we're all completely different from one another?

My husband and I have differences - some of which are doubtless related to our sex (whether biologically determined or socially constructed). But our similarities vastly outweigh those.

HFarnsworth20 · 19/06/2015 13:17

I would like my daughter to learn practical skills so that she might think that some male dominated careers might be an option (mechanic? electrician? plumber?) and that she needn't be limited in her choices. The trouble is she has no role models for this - no women she knows are capable of as much as wiring a plug. Is that social conditioning at work?

Shakey1500 · 19/06/2015 13:18

cailindana Just my penneth FWIW ref your question.

I have already agreed with OP but in response-

I don't think it means that either sex can't/shouldn't do whatever job/task/lifestyle they want. Obviously it's been proved that it's possible and attainable. But I can't understand some people's utter disbelief that a lot of inclinations are a "natural" instinct and that in general, a large proportion of females/males with have certain natural instincts. That's all.

Or at least that's how it appears to me on threads such as this. It will always be debated thus. And I doubt it will ever be proved one way or another through xyz scientific research. And if it was there'd be holes to be picked from either side Smile

HapShawl · 19/06/2015 13:21

"I think it is wishful thinking to exclude either as playing a part in whatever generalisations that are observed"

it's not excluding "hardwiring", it is questioning the emphasis. and why shouldn't we when the hardwiring argument is used to reinforce gross inequalities?

Micah · 19/06/2015 13:21

Fearless. So say we accept your "hard wired" hypothesis that men and women are different.

How do we know which traits are hard wired vs which are social construct? How do we account for different gender roles in different cultures?

We must also accept that men and women physically can't do certain inappropriate tasks. Which is odd, because I can do anything my husband can. Except wee standing up. He can do anything I can, apart from carry a child and breastfeed. Oh and he's pretty crap at changing bicycle and car tyres too, something I find easy.

BertieBotts · 19/06/2015 13:22

Other animals don't drive cars or use computers. If we have differences, they are cancelled out by technology. And yet we continue to behave as though they matter. Why?

cailindana · 19/06/2015 13:22

So what is the point of identifying these 'natural' things Shakey? Say we identify that men are 'naturally' more violent than women - what should we do about that? Ignore it? Control men? Medicate them?

CultureSucksDownWords · 19/06/2015 13:23

Shakey, can you give an example of a "natural instinct" for men or women that a large proportion of that sex have, that is something inherent from birth i.e. it persists regardless of upbringing, culture, socialisation etc?

FermatCode · 19/06/2015 13:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/06/2015 13:35

Hfarnsesworth - I'm delighted you don't want your DD to be constrained by stereotypes. If she has no female role models capable of wiring a plug (leaving aside that's a bit of a passe skill Grin) - yes, that's social conditioning and it's exactly why the UK is lacking in female engineers and some types of scientists when this discrepancy is not observed in other countries. (and similarly why there's a dearth of men in other professions.)

My DD can certainly wire a plug, though she'd much rather design a PCB - she's planning to become an electrical or electronics engineer. I don't think there's anything particularly odd about her. She's just a normal girl (looks very stereotypically female, like me - small, curves, long hair) who was brought up with dolls, lego, knex, chemistry sets, electronics sets, lots of cuddly toys who didn't receive any crap about what girls or boys could or should do.

CultureSucksDownWords · 19/06/2015 13:35

HFarnsworth20, often girls/women are not put off by having male role models. Show her how to do these things yourself and this will have a positive effect. Ask an adult female family member who might be interested to show her how to do these things - they might be happy to learn themselves, and then show your DD!

HFarnsworth20 · 19/06/2015 13:39

I'm sure as shit that most people that I know, who are not electricians, if they were interested, could sit down and work out how to wire a plug....

It's always left to the men of the house, same as fixing bike chains, oil changes on the car, grass cutting/strimming, anything where the verb 'to tinker' might be applied.....

ErrolTheDragon · 19/06/2015 13:43

Yes - if whoever does a particular job in a household teaches all their children then we'd have a lot more people who were capable of doing anything they wanted. Boys can be taught to cook by a mother or a father; girls can learn to do DIY or motor maintainance from either. Not hard really!

ErrolTheDragon · 19/06/2015 13:46

'It's always left to the men of the house'

er... you must know that you're going to have lots of people now saying 'eh? not in my household' Grin I'm the bike-tinkerer and dishwasher-motor-fixer, for instance.

HFarnsworth20 · 19/06/2015 13:47

Show her how to do these things yourself and this will have a positive effect.

I try but - and here's the damn thing - she'd rather be out picking flowers. Neither I nor DW have ever tried to raise a 'girly' girl, but me trying to interest her in football and films (yes, I know....) just won't take. She'll maybe be a botanist, though, so I haven't ruled out a scientist in the family just yet.

My DD can certainly wire a plug, though she'd much rather design a PCB - she's planning to become an electrical or electronics engineer. I don't think there's anything particularly odd about her.

Cool - have you found that where you are there would be any barriers to her pursuing this? In our schools system we have found that that pathways to 'caring' professions are entirely taken up by females, and STEM subjects entirely by males. And it's 2015. :/

HFarnsworth20 · 19/06/2015 13:49

*'It's always left to the men of the house'

er... you must know that you're going to have lots of people now saying 'eh? not in my household' grin I'm the bike-tinkerer and dishwasher-motor-fixer, for instance.*

Fair enough, tin hat on.... :)

Also, I didn't say I or any of my male contemporaries are actually any good at any of the above.

laurierf · 19/06/2015 14:10

I try but - and here's the damn thing - she'd rather be out picking flowers

I hope you get her to cut/strim the grass whilst she's at it.

HFarnsworth20 · 19/06/2015 14:17

I hope you get her to cut/strim the grass whilst she's at it.

I'm waiting till she can reach the handle of the lawnmower...

I'm delighted you don't want your DD to be constrained by stereotypes

There's that, but also round here electricians, plumbers and mechanics make an absolute fortune ;)

CultureSucksDownWords · 19/06/2015 14:24

Perhaps she just prefers flowers at the moment? That's a valid choice.

She may yet show an interest in other things so don't give up trying to show her a variety of options.

Anniegetyourgun · 19/06/2015 14:26

People harping on about the human race being "hard-wired" in one way or another seem to miss the rather crucial fact that we do not have wires. Maybe some of you are rather clever androids but I, for one, am made of squishy stuff and it's quite changeable really. Were that not the case CBT would be a complete waste of time.

HFarnsworth20 · 19/06/2015 14:27

Perhaps she just prefers flowers at the moment? That's a valid choice.

She's only 5 so it might be premature to give up just yet. I think football is a lost cause, though...

ErrolTheDragon · 19/06/2015 14:29

A botanist or a horticulturalist or florist or ... whatever is her bent.

Pretty shocking if all the 'caring' and all the STEM are entirely gender-divided in the schools in your area. (actually that can't be entirely correct because there are lots of 'caring' professions which require 'S'). I don't think that would have applied in any of the ones locally; DD's is an all-girls school which are known to reduce stereotype biases. The most popular A-level choices are biology and maths, lots do chemistry and a set or two of physics and further maths. If this is what happens in a girls' school but it doesn't in mixed, that shows just how much is due to social conditioning rather than some inherent ability.

laurierf · 19/06/2015 14:33

I'm waiting till she can reach the handle of the lawnmower…

Well when she can, you know what to do. There's a reason I never realised cutting/mowing the lawn was a "man's job" until I saw your post and that's because when I was growing up it was my job in return for pocket money.

We learnt to wire a plug at school for Physics GCSE, from a female teacher, and both my mum and dad would do DIY in the house… so, again, I didn't realise that was a 'man's job' because I just lumped it in with all the other domestic chores which DH and I split because, strangely enough, neither of us instinctively enjoy doing them so we naturally share them because we work as a team.