Are the "rules" different if DH is a "genius"?

[EquityDarling]

name change for this one...

I have been together for 8 years (married for 6) to a DH who is generally acknowledged (although not by himself) to be a "genius". With a few details changed to avoid outing but convey the essence, he is a renowned artist (in a very specialist field), a widely published faculty member at a top university and a leading campaigner on a particular political/social issue who is often interviewed in the press/asked to give evidence to select committees etc. His intelligence and talent was obvious from an early age, making him something of a freak child, which his lower middle class aspirational parents did not deal with well - they were embarrassed by his "weirdness" and constantly put him down so that he is utterly lacking in self-confidence and can have trust issues and react in a very hostile manner to anything he perceives as criticism. He has an incredibly strong sense of justice and fairness, hence the campaigning work in an area which is often difficult, unpopular and makes him lots of enemies.

I am definitively NOT any kind of genius, just an averagely bright professional from a happy, stable family.

DH and I in many ways have a really fantastic relationship - he is so fascinating, massively enthusiastic, really interested in my views on everything and flatteringly attracted to me sexually. But when he goes through a period of extended stress, which is happening at the moment, due to various issues of principle related to university politics and the wider issue on which he campaigns, he can be very difficult to live with. I have no problem with the things which are upsetting him - he is quite justified to think they are shockingly hypocritical and corrupt and I share his concern about them - but his anger and upset has simply taken over our lives to a degree which is really driving me down. He has immense energy, hardly sleeps and wants/needs to talk about what is bad and wrong and how down it is making him, around the clock. I feel as though the only place I can get any peace is at work.

We have had some counselling (both joint and separate) and I have found that my best coping mechanism is an approach called "radical acceptance", whereby I have to let him talk it out without trying to 'solve' the problem, accept that if we go out with friends he will often spend the evening staring angrily at his phone, posting furiously on various specialist discussion boards, or ranting about how awful something is until it fills up the whole of the space. The same happens if we go to see my family or if he and I go away for the weekend. Basically I accept what I can't change and draw a few agreed boundaries where I can, for example he no longer calls me at work for long rants and has mostly stopped waking me up in the middle of the night to tell me things. I (sort of) knew this was what I was getting into when I married him and I know he genuinely cannot help it, but I am beginning to doubt my ability to see this through in the long term, particularly since the issues currently enraging him aren't going to go away.

I do not believe this is emotional abuse as it is not calculating or manipulative, he is simply overtaken by the strength of his emotions and finds it very hard to self-sooth, but I am wondering whether I am letting my own needs slide to a degree which is damaging. Please be gentle lovely Mumsnetters but advice would be appreciated...

Thanks simonetta. No we don't have kids - he was agnostic on the issue and I was never very broody and am realistic enough to accept this would be a far-from-optimal situation for parenting. He has literally no clue what parenting means and seeing him with my lovely niece and nephew makes me realise how difficult he would have found it - he and the kids regard each other as benign objects of fascination but there is no understanding on either side.

To clarify, he has not been prescribed beta-blockers, but lots of musicians take them for nerves/stagefright and that is the basis of DH's belief that all drugs can interfere with optimal performance. It is that aspect rather than anything academic which puts him off. I think maybe I was wrong to use genius in the title of this thread - I think on reflection it is really the creative artist side rather than the academic of him which gives rise to the most difficulties....

RB68 I feel you! I am not "innocent" in this either. I have PMT which can be pretty bad if it coincides with a stressful period for DH and I can react pretty strongly and emotionally to govt policy decisions when they impact on the charities I am a trustee for.....

Thanks mumagain1 and hope the tokens work for you!

Oh dear, this thread has brought so many memories... I was married to an academic genius, amazing brain, incredible focus, but interestingly, I always did better than him in Mensa and IQ tests, so I was never prepared to be be minimised by his "genious" (yeah, I didn't achieve as much as him, but then I was more concerned about the needs of the family rather than my career)

I also put some strategies in place to help me cope with his obsessions and the political problems he walked into, or better said created on his own as they were mostly owed to be so obsessed with stuff, and was convinced his views were amazing so he didn't accept or acknowledge any other person's views or opinions.. But I would have never agreed to some of the radical acceptance measures you mention, because he could change even if he didn't want to.

I also blamed part of his failings on his controlling mother. His new partner blames them on me. I realise now that his mum and I are just scapegoats when it comes to his inability of acting rationally, and if the relationship with his current partner finishes, she will also be to blame.

I still admire his genius, focus and drive, he was also very handsome. if he was't such a shit parent, I would even feel proud of him. I have to say, however that my life is 100 times better since he is not in it.

SolidGoldBrass post at 19:17 is spot on. The fact that he is a genius doesn't make you the under dog.

Thanks NotSure. I think bad parenting can often play a part and DH's hyper-sensitivity to criticism certainly comes from his parents calling him a weirdo from a very early age.

In terms of balance, although I don't have an outstanding talent or intellect like dh, I have a fairly decent career of my own in a totally different field, am the main breadwinner and DH is always tremendously respectful of my ideas and opinions so I don't feel that we are in "competition" if that makes sense. I am not scared of being on my own - I could fend for myself a lot more easily than DH could and have always been very comfortable with my own company

"I am wondering whether I am letting my own needs slide to a degree which is damaging"

Kind of...I've personally found whenever I've dated very emotionally "intense" men (some are very high achieving business/military or creative types as in your case) I feel drained by the end of the liaison.

Even if I can't put my finger on it and say "ah, you're keeping me from...."insert wonderful creative feminine activity I would be doing instead"" I find they end up taking too much head space and emotional energy and I lose my equilibrium.

Find I can get creativity and intellectual support and stimulation and conversation from friendships, my own stuff, finding my own path.

(not through osmosis sitting with someone who already is fairly set in their creative ways - one of the LEAST interesting people I dated was a well-known artist, he wanted a partner who let him be eccentric and outlandish and flamboyant but she had to be calm and conventional to support him ).

Maybe its different if a couple, say, meets at art school and has that path in common.

but if one person is taking the role as the intense, moody, genius that doesn't leave any emotional room for the other as they then feel they HAVE to be the practical/level-headed/stoic one.

You know what gets my creative juices going? NOT having to emotionally mop up and do emotional wifework for someone else.

What's the difference between "radical acceptance" and "surrendered wife" and "doormat"?

Why is it your job to make up for the shortcomings in how he was parented?

If he has problems handling criticism because his parents called him a weirdo, it's up to him to sort out the consequences of that, not you.

He sounds awful. And if he has MH issues (he sounds bipolar, what with the obsessiveness, lack of sleep, etc) then they need to be treated, rather than you being his emotional punching bag. If he "can't help it" without drugs, then he needs to take the drugs or find some other way of adjusting to the world, not use you as a bottomless pit that he can pour all his excess emotions and energy into.

Incidentally, not all high-achieving people come with issues.

there are plenty of "outstanding in their field" types who also are great, supportive, partners.

Could one strategy be to give yourself a break. You can't afford a second house, but can you afford a hotel? If you know he's really wound up, go somewhere just for 24 hours? Talk it through with him first, let him know that it is a strategy not a punishment or threat, and then go somewhere. At least you'll get some sleep and won't be nurturing his problems.

It was the solution fir Churchill and his wife. She often took off for weeks so she could have her own life.

Hi

I was (note past tense) married to a 'genuis' with bipolar, who refused to accept bipolar diagnosis for most of our marriage and even when he did refused any medication for fear of it 'taking the edge off' him.

It was something that contributed to destroying our marriage, in the end, as it destroyed any normal relationship/love from me.

Manic stage - people found him terrifying, big man, awful mouth frothing rages over nothing, storming about, hyper hyper hyper, also spent money like it was water and got us in financial difficulties. Depressed - quiet anger, critical, depressed, anxious.

Living on a yo-yo.

We developed some coping strategies once he accepted he had a mental health/behaviour issue. When furiously angry he was to go away, go for a walk, go to another room, calm himself down. Which often included mangling up metal coat hangers, but whatever. In any case, go away from me as I was tired of 'talking him down'. There was a turning point when he trusted me enough to listen when I said to him 'you are over-reacting to this, go calm down', and he would do it. The hyper hyper times - go find an outlet for this energy, go for a walk instead of pacing around talking nineteen to the dozen. Depressed/anxious - ok I can comfort him to a certain extent but to recognise this was a temp. thing that would pass.

It wasn't enough. He is now medicated and much more stable, although has serious ups and downs still, and has been hospitalised a couple of times through suicidal thoughts. He's still, and will always be, a handful.

I feel sorry for him but I'm relieved to no longer have to deal with all this.

Excuse me, if you have to put up with such tirades in "radical acceptance" how on Earth are you equal? No affection, hugs or "let me make you a cup of coffee's" could make uo for the hell he is giving you.

But if you want to take it because you are supporting someone you think is so special, it is ok. Hundreds of women who contact Womens Aid felt exacly the same as you do. Because that's what domestic abuse does, makes you find strategies and excuses so you can continue loving and supporting a man who is obviously being abusive to you.

There's something significant, I think, in the fact that I have never ever heard of one of these tortured genius/radical acceptor relationships where the tortured genius was a woman..........

Oh and that 'radical acceptance' sounds like a load of wank and justifying putting up with being treated badly.

Look at it this way - I accepted that my ex husband couldn't always 'help' the way he felt and behaved. But I stopped accepting I had to be on the receiving shitty end of it. Especially when it was clear he was refusing to accept treatment/help - yeah, fuck that.

If your husband had a physical problem that caused him to vomit for hours every couple of weeks, he would go to the bathroom and puke in the toilet. You might pop in to check on him, bring him water, sympathise a bit, but essentially he is puking, there's nothing you can do about it. What you don't do is stand there letting him puke all over you, instead of the toilet, for hours.

Sorry not read thread - but I have a son with similar qualities - also younger less ' inspired' but still important children. I basically pay for my son to 'talk' to somone foe 2 hours a week - its called councelling but it really is nust him chance to vent - i wonder (perhaps naively) could you find similar outlets ?

IQ, creativity etc isn't relevant here. If you find yourself having to live around your partner to the point where you start to lose touch with yourself then it's needing either fixing or ending. You can't live your life like a vine clinging onto a tree, no matter how amazing that tree seems to be.

He needs to learn about a time and place. He needs to take news hiatuses when its starting to affect his mental health and relationship.
He is doing good, he sounds like a good person. Its not about a free pass. There's no such thing in a relationship and that's nothing to do with how clever he is

?Having read the thread I feel that he needs you way more than you need him, infact he sounds like something of a millstone ?

From your initial description I wondered if you might be Grayson Perry's wife, but they have been married a long time and she is a psychotherapist who has written a book called 'How to Stay Sane'! Being the partner of someone extremely passionate, in the public eye, and with very poor boundaries of their own behaviour (not saying Grayson Perry has these at all) is always going to be difficult.

Lots of good advice OP. I really hope you are able to take it on board.

Saying that I was not sure what good advice Hoopla was giving in her post which read like a Mill & Boon and a not so stealth boast about her DH

Thanks everyone. Kickassangel the idea of taking "hotel breaks" is a good one - and very do-able where we live - I may suggest it.

To the LTB brigade, I'm genuinely asking for feedback on whether the level of compromise I have made is sustainable and I am open to hearing that it is not. However, I don't think it's quite fair to call what he is doing abuse - it is not manipulative, none of the anger is directed "at" me (it's just in my vicinity) and I am 100% certain his aim is not to establish power or control over me.

I'm not saying that means it's ok for me to do all the compromising or that he shouldn't try to adapt his behaviour - we're working on that in therapy. But I do think there is a distinction of intention between his behaviour and that of an abuser which is important.

OP, you sound incredibly sane and sensible - and I think you also sound like you're handling a very difficult situation with much grace. I think you've hit the nail on the head that this isn't abuse, though it is very difficult to live with.

I am no genius and no worldly success, but I share some traits of your husband though perhaps to a less extreme degree. I have an inability to stop going on and on and on about something that I see as unjust, even though I can see the other person is tired/frustrated/upset or simply uninterested. I have a need to rebel against things that I see are wrong, whatever cost - and this can be both self-destructive and difficult for those around me.

I know that it is deeply connected with issues of self-esteem and feelings of impotence/incapacity that go back to my childhood, and I am having counselling to address these. I also know it's incredibly selfish behaviour - and paradoxical, in that "caring" about issues shouldn't lead me to be "uncaring" towards others. I don't know why, but there is just so much FEAR involved: I obsess about the injustices because I am incredibly anxious about them, though I do not really understand what I'm afraid of.

I do think time out is incredibly important. And I mean time away from phones, and away from media - not just with the same behaviour in a new place. It will take more than a couple of days for him to unwind, and I think it's important that time isn't spent rushing around but on reconnecting with his ability to experience things at quite a sensory level. The wellspring of his art will undoubtedly be his ability to notice things - to see things in the world around him, to make connections, that others do not make, and perhaps his art is also quite engaged and political as a result. Perhaps unlocking a less socially-based, more ecological form of creativity - noticing the being of a bird or a flower - might help to create some space for him to calm down a bit and see the beauty of the world as well as the injustice of it. (I find gardening helps me to do this).

Mindfulness is a cliche these days, but it does help, and it gives my DH some time when he can be quiet. I also think that you desperately need your own space for your interests and your campaigns, and also interlocutory space at home to discuss these - perhaps a rule where you get to speak for 20 minutes about your day before he says anything about his!

Kickassangel the idea of taking "hotel breaks" is a good one - and very do-able where we live - I may suggest it.

What? I have over-estimated you. Suggest it? You may?

Look, if it gets too much, tell him it's too much and you're going for some peace & quiet at [hotel]. Keep a weekend bag packed.

I wrote you a post about radical acceptance and how it MUST include acceptance of your own needs & due respect for your self. If that didn't register with you, then what you're doing isn't remotely radical; it's a popular strategy known as 'putting up with it'.

Stop being a doormat. You're better than this!

FWIW (almost nothing!) I remember when I was in music school a classmate insisted that bananas contain a naturally-occurring substance which acts in a similar way to beta blockers and he would eat "just 5 or 6" bananas before going onstage (blech!). Just in case a banana diet might help ;-)

On a more serious note, I'm sorry you're in this difficult situation and wish you the best. Hope you have plenty of support from others.

haha boxcutter. I shall add that to the massive collection of bonkers, freaky and sad stories I have heard from people who went to music school.

We have had some counselling (both joint and separate) and I have found that my best coping mechanism is an approach called "radical acceptance", whereby I have to let him talk it out without trying to 'solve' the problem, accept that if we go out with friends he will often spend the evening staring angrily at his phone, posting furiously on various specialist discussion boards, or ranting about how awful something is until it fills up the whole of the space. The same happens if we go to see my family or if he and I go away for the weekend. Basically I accept what I can't change and draw a few agreed boundaries where I can, for example he no longer calls me at work for long rants and has mostly stopped waking me up in the middle of the night to tell me things

I'm just reposting this because to me, this level of silencing of others, namely you, and his inability to stop ranting when you are in social situations or on weekends, would be experienced like abuse to me. Few people set out thinking 'I know, I'll deliberately control x'- some do, but others manage to do so just by being so difficult and angry and on a tightrope, everyone just ends up in the same position as if it were deliberate- not able to speak out, treading on eggshells, having to practice 'acceptance' of the nastiness/ranting otherwise any attempt at discussion ends up with further rows.

Essentially your strategy seems to be putting up with it, ignoring it and at times getting your sister/friends to put up with it too. I was shocked by the bit about them 'talking him down' if you can't, all the women really do orient around the male genuis who can't be expected to behave normally!

I'm sure there are lots of lovely things about your husband, and it sounds like on a good day, he can be charismatic, persuasive and devoted to you. But you have to have more good days, otherwise the bad days are just going to be overwhelming and too tiring to keep up for years.

How do you feel when you are home? Do you hope he's there when you get in? Do you worry what type of mood he's in? Do you avoid certain topics so not to set him off? Are you essentially policing your own behaviour in a way he's not so as not to collapse the marriage? What would happen if you said you didn't want to hear about x topic tonight or have his students/researchers over or you wanted a weekend without discussing the campaign? I have lived like that for short periods and it was awful, I wouldn't do so long-term.

I think it's fine to set much higher goals than 'don't wake me in the night to rant about your topic' which actually, he still does occasionally anyway, which I find outrageous given you have f/t work to do as well.

I also think you have given up a lot for him, you say you were ambivalent about children, but essentially you know bringing children up with him would be a disaster so have chosen not to do it, again not to unsettle the applecart. That's a huge sacrifice and one which you may end up resenting I think.

I guess I feel quite cross reading about this man, but that is probably because I work with lots of middle-aged professors who similarly think they are the Sun around which work colleagues, friends and their poor wives have to orient. Not all, I do know more equal academic relationships, but many of them treat their wives like an appendage to their brilliance, even if they once had a heck of a lot of potential themselves.