Are the "rules" different if DH is a "genius"?

[EquityDarling]

name change for this one...

I have been together for 8 years (married for 6) to a DH who is generally acknowledged (although not by himself) to be a "genius". With a few details changed to avoid outing but convey the essence, he is a renowned artist (in a very specialist field), a widely published faculty member at a top university and a leading campaigner on a particular political/social issue who is often interviewed in the press/asked to give evidence to select committees etc. His intelligence and talent was obvious from an early age, making him something of a freak child, which his lower middle class aspirational parents did not deal with well - they were embarrassed by his "weirdness" and constantly put him down so that he is utterly lacking in self-confidence and can have trust issues and react in a very hostile manner to anything he perceives as criticism. He has an incredibly strong sense of justice and fairness, hence the campaigning work in an area which is often difficult, unpopular and makes him lots of enemies.

I am definitively NOT any kind of genius, just an averagely bright professional from a happy, stable family.

DH and I in many ways have a really fantastic relationship - he is so fascinating, massively enthusiastic, really interested in my views on everything and flatteringly attracted to me sexually. But when he goes through a period of extended stress, which is happening at the moment, due to various issues of principle related to university politics and the wider issue on which he campaigns, he can be very difficult to live with. I have no problem with the things which are upsetting him - he is quite justified to think they are shockingly hypocritical and corrupt and I share his concern about them - but his anger and upset has simply taken over our lives to a degree which is really driving me down. He has immense energy, hardly sleeps and wants/needs to talk about what is bad and wrong and how down it is making him, around the clock. I feel as though the only place I can get any peace is at work.

We have had some counselling (both joint and separate) and I have found that my best coping mechanism is an approach called "radical acceptance", whereby I have to let him talk it out without trying to 'solve' the problem, accept that if we go out with friends he will often spend the evening staring angrily at his phone, posting furiously on various specialist discussion boards, or ranting about how awful something is until it fills up the whole of the space. The same happens if we go to see my family or if he and I go away for the weekend. Basically I accept what I can't change and draw a few agreed boundaries where I can, for example he no longer calls me at work for long rants and has mostly stopped waking me up in the middle of the night to tell me things. I (sort of) knew this was what I was getting into when I married him and I know he genuinely cannot help it, but I am beginning to doubt my ability to see this through in the long term, particularly since the issues currently enraging him aren't going to go away.

I do not believe this is emotional abuse as it is not calculating or manipulative, he is simply overtaken by the strength of his emotions and finds it very hard to self-sooth, but I am wondering whether I am letting my own needs slide to a degree which is damaging. Please be gentle lovely Mumsnetters but advice would be appreciated...

I think on reflection it is really the creative artist side rather than the academic of him which gives rise to the most difficulties....

Name changer here. I have read this thread with great interest and the point you raise above resonates with me somewhat. I am married to a successful artist. He is wonderful to live with and ticks all the right boxes in so many areas but by God he can be extremely hard to live with.

He has not had a traditional upbringing or education, he was a prodigy who got to where he is on pure talent rather than qualifications, of which he has none. He is driven, he hates conforming, he hates authority, he will always challenge unfair or unethical behaviour/situations.

When he is on a 'crusade' or in the midst of an art project it is all consuming and there is no room in his head for anything else. It takes over completely. Nobody and nothing else exists. There is no conversation other than his issues or problems or feelings. It can be so draining.

People either love him or hate him, get him don't get him and this has strained many a friendship. He is never rude to people or insulting but he doesn't always consider the feelings of others. Having said that, he is respected for being very supportive of other artists and will go the whole hog to support them financially and/or practically. So much money has been given to support artists or causes he is passionate about I can't tell you.

Our social circle is almost entirely formed of artists and many of them are challenging, often non-conformist, often self-obsessed, often pathologically focused to the exclusion of others. So there may be something in the brain of an artist that makes them like this, I don't know.

I am not interested in a diagnosis for him, if indeed there is one. In any case, like your DH, mine would refuse any medication and resist any contact with therapists or psychologists. On balance life is good and I have just learnt to ride out the more challenging episodes.

I wonder if the effect of beta blockers on performance is still there in a proper double-blind study (where the performer and the listener don't know if the performer is taking a beta blocker or a placebo). If DH studies science and knows what a double-blind study is, you might mention this to him. There is stigma around mental illness, and that might be at least a part of the belief that medications affect performance. I don't know if any studies about this have been done.

Of course, not all medications for mental illnesses work the same way as beta blockers. Even if beta blockers really do affect performance, that doesn't mean that all other medications do too.

I've read your first post and immediately wondered if he is manic depressive? A friend's husband recently went through a few weeks where he was completely engrossed in certain cultural factors and their lifestyle choices and how hypocritical that made him feel - she had to talk to him for around 5 days in a row and hugely change their lifestyle as he was manic and was so insistent. She knows he has a problem but felt it was a good/the right thing to do, so went along with it. He has episodes every couple of years, usually affected by alcohol or long hours at work. Does this sound as though it could apply?

I'm bipolar and all of that stuff is stuff I do while manic. All of it. Coupled with depressive bouts, get him to a psychiatrist!

I think on reflection it is really the creative artist side rather than the academic of him which gives rise to the most difficulties....

I have to disagree. From all that you've written here, I don't think it's creativity that's causing problems it's disordered mental-emotional health.

YY, Twinkle. But this thread's really a mutual commiseration beano for the long-suffering wives of selfish geniuses, isn't it? Said geniuses can't be expected to respect their partners' emotional health in case it risks compromising their talent. Only the chosen few get to sacrifice their sanity on the altar of passion. Etcetera.

As I understand it there are many artistic/creative types who have hypo-manic phases but consider them to be an integral part of their ability to be creative, one characteristic of mania is the flight of ideas and there is also the loosening of associations that occurs in psychosis.
The link with creativity is obvious, it's the old 'thin line between genius and madness' thing isnt it

Hi Equity,

I've not read the entire thread, but your post has really resonated with me because of my own family situation.

Your Dh sounds very much like my stepfather, who is an extremely intelligent man and quite brilliant in his own field of work.
What was passion and drive when he was younger had morphed into self-absorption and obsessiveness as he got older. His conversation was dominated by his own views and the need to get his message out there. My mother absolutely tolerated this as he was, in her eyes, a great man with an important message.

However…we as his 'daughters' had to have every occasion - christenings, weddings, graduations, children's birthday parties - dominated by him. We, of course, withdrew after a while as it was intolerable to have him ranting on about things all the time.

Eventually, his business plans went spectacularly wrong and he ended up bankrupt. My mother, by this time, had had enough of his grandiose nature and abuse and finally left him. (thank god) She finally knows some peace, and hadn't realised what a dysfunctional mess their relationship was as she was living in the 'monkey cage'.

After they had split, suddenly old friends reappeared. They admitted they couldn't have tolerated another moment of him dominating everyone. And all through the decades my mother had thought that everyone considered him a very interesting man. But the friends were there because of mum, and despite him. How can you tell a friend that their husband is a boor?

I suspect very strongly that your friends will be feeling the same way, but none of them will ever tell you this as it would break the friendship. For your DH to rant on for ages when you are together, be texting and on the internet during nights out - I can promise your friends are not thinking 'gosh, what a fascinating genius, isn't she lucky." but They are probably thinking they might only have a few more nights out like that before they will gently disconnect.

My stepfather, I suspect, is bipolar, but because of my mothers support, he was able to function. Now he is bankrupt and she is no longer there for support i worry for his future. I do think you need to listen to other posters on here about what to do about your DHs mental health. Your situation is worrying.

BTW - I am definitely not saying LTB.
You sound like a really lovely person who has their head screwed on. I would just say, analyse the situation very carefully. It is unlikely any of your family members or friends will truly give their opinion on this because of the fallout. But just think back to how they have REALLY reacted to your DH.
But remember, any damage that his parents did should make you feel sorry for the boy your Dh was, but not accept terrible behaviour from the man he has become.

the guy may be a genius but if he pisses everyone off so much that no one wants him in their life and he cant function without someone to mother him and manage day to day practicalities then he sounds like a liability

"I think on reflection it is really the creative artist side rather than the academic of him which gives rise to the most difficulties...."

Really? And there was me thinking it was the selfish git side of him.......

Bertrand.

Op, my dh is quite similar and a very creative type.
I set boundaries.
I tell him what is acceptable and what isn't. You have to do this and not let them rule your life.
Now if he goes off on one, I point him in the direction of his workroom and he doesn't come out until he is ready.
Over the years the apologies he has had to make when he has upset me or expected too much.
They know what they are doing, but agree with you there's no abuse it isn't manipulative or nasty, they are just so into what they do.
We have been together for 27 years and people wonder how I put up with him. However, I can be a pain too and usually reply, he has to put up with me.
Likewise I knew what I was getting involved with, now I manage him quite well but it wasn't always like this.
If you want to talk anytime you can pm me with pleasure.

Equity darling,
I remember years ago I read an Aldous Huxley's book called something like : the genius and his wives (I do not remember the exact title and I was unable to find him even if I looked for it lately). From what I remember it is about a genius who was widowed and remarried. One of his wives was crap the other an angel. And you know what : he could not tell the difference. (That is what I remember- the novel might be absolutely different.)

BP ? I do not know. For me it looks as he might well be this kind of geniuses on the Autism Spectrum (my wonderful FIL was this kind of genius). Artistic- Genius-wonderful- dedicated to his cause/s - Justice seeking up to social/career suicide- loyal to his bones- loving to the depth of his heart - but with very difficult social skills, obsessed and ready to speak all the time about his new/old cause/s. So how to tackle this?
I loved my FIL. My MIL did not much (she is much more the Belle Epoque high bourgeoise for whom the etiquette and social interactions were paramount. You are not this at all. You have been raised in a much more decent and deep and loving environment.)

About my FIL: I restricted my conversations with him to specific subjects that interested me. He lived with us toward the end of his life. (Extremely intelligent and aware about what was going on all over the world -in arts, sciences etc- with accurate political and social predictions until his last day- aged 85, and this despite his disease. He died from Hepatitis B that he contacted in prison- he was in prison for his political beliefs- and became cirrhosis in the last years of his life .)
(My FIL went to prisons and lost/donated fortunes for his ideas. He also made fortunes thanks to his genius and honesty but he also donated practically all of it to his causes). So yes these people are wonderful charming but might be exhausting.
My modest opinion: your counselor was not correct. Radical acceptance is not good for these people who lack internal boundaries. I am not sure it has to do with his poor parenting. Sure enough the parenting and the counseling as well IMO did no good to him. Some cognitive behavioral therapy to teach him some internal self-enforced boundaries in his commitments + to awaken his awareness to the impact it has on you + to help him put in place some mental mechanism that will allow him to restrain his enthusiasm for his ideas and increase his consideration toward you are needed IMO. (If you do not have kids then it is a bit easy- I think. You will just have to sit and find back your own boundaries and try to inculcate in him some before you make a final decision based on how much you can put up with. But it is radical no to radical acceptance. It is self-immolation in your case. Believe it might even not do him any good. If you put boundaries he will have to learn to fit in the society.) Good Luck!

I have read the thread and I would suggest that he sounds like a self obsessed narcissist with appalling social skills and a heightened sense of self importance which people like to self diagnose as , " tortured genius"

Okay - so I am also married to a " genius" but he is kind, understanding and erm........normal - i.e he has the social skills and the self awareness not to bore everyone rigid at social events and is able to talk to everyone regardless of their academic ability.

I'm afraid your DH just sounds like an oaf and a bore.

more our posts crossed. It looks as if you are handling very well a similar situation and it is all about 'boundaries' . More hope for you Equity. Good Luck!

Some people ARE like this. A lot of very driven successful artists are, it's how they get to be successful, and not something they have control over. You can pull it apart, analyse it, label it etc. In the end it's simple: can you live with it?

MH diagnosis, difficult upbringing, "genius", good deeds for his sector and society or not he has some pretty unappealing, selfish behaviours as a partner!

Taking up far more than his fair share of the "airtime", ranting, not making time for you or others he cares for, waking you up in the night, putting you (and your family and friends) in the position of listener and soother for hours on end. Using up your time and energy. These behaviours have pay-offs for him. I also don't buy that he couldn't change them if he wanted to.

There are clearly also big (psychological?) pay-offs to him choosing to do what he does, despite the stress. Which he is prioritising over being a good partner.

The situation sounds quite co-dependent: there must be pay-offs for you too since you've stayed and clearly still want to stay with him.

I know two people a little like this. One is a formerly close friend who has a (same sex - relevant given how rare it is that women get away with these behaviours!) partner who (IMO) panders to her. she has got worse over the years, lost friends and career has stalled.

The other is my father. Similar background and circumstances (without the super high achievement!) My mum has put up with an awful lot of similar kinds of behaviour as your H for 40 years! He has mellowed to a degree, still goes through stages of being better or worse, but their relationship is even harder (for her) in later life due to her poor health, so her former coping mechanisms (some suggested by PPs here, eg going away, pursuing own interests, work) are no longer possible. Setting new boundaries after many years has proved difficult. He has lots of lovely qualities (like your H) but few close friends, partly because he gets what he wants from her! And because of the rants, bitterness about "the system", poor social behaviour and so on. When she is really unwell he has sometimes tried to seek similar "support" from me or others in the family, but we're wise to him, have boundaries, and forcibly change the subject! she loves him very much but has big regrets too.

Huxley's The Genius and the Goddess

..........

... I remembered that, to John Rivers, the name had been something more and other than a household word. "You were his pupil, weren't you?"
Rivers nodded without speaking.
"And this is the official biography?"
"The official fiction" he amended. "An unforgettable picture of the Soap Opera Scientist - you know the type - the moronic baby with the giant intellect: the sick genius battling indomitably against enormous odds; the lonely thinker who was yet the most affectionate of family men; the absent-minded professor with his head in the clouds but his heart in the right place. The facts, unfortunately, weren't quite so simple. ... It's exasperating, if one happens to know the facts, to be fobbed off with Soap Opera."

..........

The scientist's angelic and much younger wife, Katy, got fed up with catering to the cantankerous & self-obsessed genius. She had an affair with Rivers. After she died in a car crash, the scientist (Henry) married her sister who then also died, some other wife, and then a very young woman who took no shit.

As MaMa says, a wife was a wife to Henry. The world revolved around him because of the Soap Opera Scientist trope: pretty much everyone else in his life was a mere accessory to his persona. But everyone had the option to leave that particular film set; they stayed, making Huxley's point that the mythology sucks people in even though they are living the unpleasant truth.

Equity

Just tell him in no uncertain terms that if he isn't going to acknowledge that you know more about social awareness than he does, and that he is prepared to follow your lead, then he could lose you.
There is only a certain amount a person can take.

I'm not saying this will work, but worth a try. sometimes, just being very direct and to the point is all it takes.
I understand the frustration with injustice as my dh is the same in his work and its good that you empathise, surely he must see what a good catch he has in you
Does he ever see that he has pushed boundaries and apologise?

Oh, I don't agree by the way that it is easier if you don't have dc as I'm sure we wouldn't have come this far without the normality that comes with dc.

My dh talks about frustrations in his work when f&f are around but only if asked about it. I think most people do make allowances and don't find people like this a bore. Obviously if it is constant then he needs to address this but a little ramble never hurt anyone really.
I have come to terms and accept what my dh is like. He isn't perfect but the good far outweighs the bad and I suppose this is what you need to assess for yourself.
It is no easy road but if you love each other and he is prepared to realise how wrong he gets it sometimes then there is hope imo.

I think Patrick White's The Vivisector is a brilliant portrait of an artist

Yes we have four children and they normalise life- you cannot get away with being a brow beating tortured genius with a two year old - they are the diva - not you!

The link with creativity is obvious, it's the old 'thin line between genius and madness' thing isnt it

I think creativity is quite poorly understood, and as in the past there was confusion as to who was mad and who was divinely inspired or possessed by the gods (literally 'enthusiasm'), so even in our time persists a conflation between creativity and mental illness.

In great art the flight of ideas is inspired, highly developed, coherent, true; in mania or psychosis it's confused, unbalanced, incoherent, in some cases actively false - delusional or hallucinatory. Mental illness can be used, described, depicted in art to great effect, but that does not mean that madness and creativity are the same thing.

Thanks Gralick for giving me the title and a bit of the beautifully written text. I read it years ago in French and did not know the English title. I will try to look for the book in some uni library (via my daughters) . I adore Huxley.
Hully I am writing down the name of the book (The Vivesector) and will read it.
More and Goat I meant to say that if Equity does not yet have kids then it is easier for her to walk off if she finds it too difficult to be with him. (Of course kids do normalize us. I recently went through the mother of all crisis in family lives and only my 4 kids helped me stay grounded- hence my name. I saw in this name some solid mammoth with 4 robust legs. No worry: I am not emotionally abusing any of them!)
So I think that we all somehow agree that the priority of Equity now is to find herself, to stop him stomping her individual space and to help him have some well defined boundaries in any social setting (and any interaction with anyone is a social setting) and some extra velvety boundaries (smooth interaction) when he is with you Equity. Good Luck Equity

I find it a little odd that people on here are fine with their partners not taking meds for a MH issue!

If anyone hasn't already seen Stephen Fry's brill documentary on his own illness, it may be worth a watch. It isn't all about the drugs squashing 'creativity' - it's about managing the highs and lows and making the episodes fewer and far between thus controlling the impact on yourself and others, rather than the illness controlling you/your loved one. Surely that is the healthy way forward for a family?