AIBU to leave DP because he's not very bright

[williaminajetfighter]

It's brutal I know but I just don't think I can stay with DP any longer because I find him quite ignorant and not very bright, and it is causing huge problems in our relationship and communication.

I know DP had a pretty poor education, left school at 15 and so is lacking in traditional educational knowledge. Grammar, spelling are very poor as is his general knowledge of maths, literature etc. His parents did nothing to foster a love of learning.

But then there is 'learned knowledge' since then and he isn't intellectually curious, hasn't really picked up a book since school, barely reads a paper (except the Metro) and thus has a fairly limited worldview. He actually shows disdain for knowledge, IYSWIM.

Finally I just don't think he's very sharp so he doesn't pick things up quickly.

It sounds incredibly mean when I write it all down but it causes huge problems on an everyday basis. For instance things I've faced this weekend in our conversations:

(a) I tried to talk to him about politics but the conversation blew up because he's so uninformed and got angry when I used the word 'libertarian' (really);
(b) I tried to have a conversation with him about household finances (which I lead) but he hates numbers and got cross;

(c) I tried to have a conversation with him about some elements of childcare such as more natural ways of dealing with baby eczema or limiting paracetemol but he thinks whatever I read is nonsense because all parenting should be 'assumed' and
(d) I tried to talk to him about about being a vegetarian and having veggie-only nights for the children but he scoffs at me because he's read nothing about the merits of vegetarianism.

These are just a few things I dealt with over the weekend and a reflection of my day to day. The other day I made a reference to Pip from Great Expectations - a pretty well known tome - and he just looked at me blankly. It sounds trite but it's pretty wearing.

When we got together I found him 'light and fun' and the years after were heavily 'operational' focusing on getting a house and having young children. Now that time has passed and we have more time for each other I am finding that we are just not a meeting of the minds and his ignorance and lack of intellectual curiosity is really offputting. I would like to grow older with someone who I can have engaging conversations with and although he is a fine father and a supportive partner who has never cheated and is really loyal, I just don't think I can be with him.

It sounds so harsh but AIBU? Has anyone else experienced this? From his POV I suppose it's not really fair to stay with him if I think he's not bright!

The one person I know who married a partner significantly less intelligent, it was down to self-confidence issues. The guy really liked her and she thought (completely wrongly) that she may not get better.

The problem then is that if the person grows in self-confidence over time, the compromise that seemed necessary at the start begins to look un-necessary, and may prove unworkable in the long run.

Tell him how you feel. Maybe he will decide to go back into education and develop himself further or maybe he will agree with you and want to find someone who doesn't think he is not very bright and loves him just the way he is.

TheWordFactory
I know quite a few women who have come to the realisation late. Not that they hadn't realised that their DH's weren't very bright/intellectually curious but they hadn't realised it mattered.
The early days were full of sex and partying (and both working full time)

Yeah that's a fair point.

I'm just reminiscing on a boy I went out with. God he was pretty. Truly beautiful. I'd had my eye on him for ages. I remember saying to my friend a couple of weeks in "erm, don't want to sound a cow but I think he's really thick" but my hormones won for a few more weeks. Did I mention how gorgeous he was?

Anyway, I'm not sure intellect/education have to be matched if everything else works well. Sense of humour, outlook on life, philosophies etc are all important.

This sounds more like general incompatibility.

Thanks everyone for your interesting and balanced comments. It's been really helpful to 'discuss' this online as I'm not able to talk to anyone about it in RL. It's particularly helpful to know that I'm not alone.

^^Don't tell him how you feel! That'd be like telling him that, on reflection, you think he's pug ugly and hoping he opts for plastic surgery. It's cruel.

This is who he is - educational attainment can be changed, but he's not suddenly going to be well informed, bright or intellectually curious if he's never been these things before.

This is definately a situation where you don't need to spell out why you've had enough.

I get that it isn't about educational difference, or even differences in upbringing. If he is closed-minded and completely uninterested in the world, and you are the other way, it is fundamental incompatibility.
My partner is not educated; I am to a high level (phd in the humanities). But he's super smart, engaged and willing to learn. It sometimes shocks me that he is SO ignorant of basic historical facts (WW2, the Nazis, what communism is, who Stalin was, that sort of thing), but that has more to do with the poor state of education in this country. He did A levels but in maths/sciences, and never seemed to get the basics of history or literature.
But he is genuinely interested in the world around him, and if he doesn't know what something is, he will ask and not be remotely embarrassed. He'll then pick it up quickly and be able to engage about it forevermore.

On the other hand, my ex was highly educated,and had similar views to me on a lot of things. Didn't make him any less of a twat though.

Is it lack of education? I think if you are educated it is very hard to imagine life for someone not educated. So if he missed out due to bad school or dyslexia then becomes defensive as he is embarrassed about it, things might be savable.

Do couples discuss politics? Not much ime because they would often disagree, vehemently in some cases. And my DH, regardless of the subject, tries to be the expert in everything, and usually is as he works harder at it. (I think it is an age thing and he must prove his worth). Very annoying too.

Looks fade, or rather, you get used to them.

You are probably a high risk for an emotional affair you know, you would be the sort to really fall for a bright man who talked to you on your own level. It might be best all round to think about ending your marriage in a 'clean' way now if you can't get over this.

I think you might want to split out the issue a bit and work out what you can get elsewhere and what is too core to the relationship you need to have it. So for example you could choose to accept that you can't really discuss politics in any detail with your Dp but you can find others where you can. But things like key parenting decisions are things where you do need to be on the same page.

It sounds like your marriage may have been somewhat like my own.

I met my H when I was very vulnerable, low self esteem, abusive background, the works. He totally got where I was and supported me so much. I had never had a relationship before where I was able to fully trust the other person.

It was obvious that he was dyslexic, although we never discussed it. He had been expelled from school at 13 and never gone back or sought any education as an adult. I thought none of that mattered and because we loved and trusted each other, it would all be okay.

Except as I grew in confidence, he began to shrink, and then he would start to get nasty with me if I used "big words". His attitude towards his son's education was awful - and it got worse as DSS got older; he refused to allow DSS to be tested for dyslexia or other SN (which he definitely does have), he wouldn't go to parents evenings, he would actively sabotage my attempts to get DSS to do his reading or homework.

He once screamed at me for using "snobby shit words!" because I'd said something was "inconceivable" during an argument. I then said "I'm sorry if you didn't understand, but I think it's important to be precise." He then shouted at me for because "precise" was apparently also a snobby shit word, even though he was fond of using "precisely" in his own conversations!

So in short: I understand how you've got here, and I think it would be best for both of you to end it relatively amicably before you start hating each other. Accept he will never match your ambitions for your DC and make your own plans accordingly.

I really wish I had ended things with my H sooner, as we ended up despising each other.

I can think of several situations where it works because that person changes and/or is willing to defer to the other as the main decision-maker. Not my cup of tea (my own problems are more of the arrogant high-achiever variety!), but it can work.

Is that at all likely?

Must admit, I would be gutted if my dh thought that about me. He is educated to Masters level and has a degree in arguing. I sailed through GCSEs with little work (all As and Bs), hated sixth form and the subjects I'd chosen, left to work full time before the final exams and barely scraped an A level.
I then went on to do the CELTA TEFL course (scoring much higher than all the graduates in the pre-entry test) and have worked ever since. There are, however, massive gaps in my knowledge. My history teacher from years 7-9 was mostly absent, so my knowledge there is atrocious, which dh notes with amusement. I do read the papers every day and research things I'm interested in, and have completed a couple of OU modules, but academically speaking, I'm absolutely useless! My maths is such that I can work out percentages and do all the calculations I'd need in daily life (so quite numerate) but his A level maths means that he'll be the one helping with that homework when the time comes.
We can have conversations though. I'd like to think we complement each other. I have friends with Phds, who I've known since before embarking on their studies and feel that I can hold my own with them. I have other friends with whom I converse in another language ( picked up when I lived abroad), friends with manual jobs, those who've done the whole 'uni/city/move to the country/sahm' thing, friends who farm and friends who are doctors. I have one friend who quit school before me to work in a stables and is now highly paid at director level of an ad agency.
What I'm saying is, formal education is great but it isn't everything. I've known undergraduates who can't book a train ticket at the station without the help of mummy and worked in restaurants with useless, dawdling waitresses who have a head full of classics.
I do understand some of what bothers you, but don't automatically blame his lack of education for your incompatibility.

I can completely understand why you're frustrated with a partner who is a lot less bright and intellectually curious than you.

But - and I'll get slated for this - I am not sure it's a good enough reason to split up, assuming your children are still young and would be very hurt if you split. (Sorry if I have missed your DC ages upthread).

I kind of think that, having unfortunately - and understandably - made the mistake of choosing to have DC with him in the first place, you now owe it to your DC to stick with him and make the best of it until they are older.

You said you used to get your intellectual stimulation from friends etc - can't you do that now?

I know a common MN view is that children are hurt more by an unhappy marriage than by a split, but IMO that may not be true if it's only "a bit bored/don't have much in common" level of unhappiness rather than "abuse/fighting tooth and nail" level of unhappiness.

I don't think you are describing someone who is "not necessarily very bright" - to me, that is making serious mistakes over and over again without learning from them, or having fundamental difficulties in leading a normal life, or in understanding general conversations.

But your examples are all liberal, wooly minded pseudo-intellectual type comments that anyone of a more practical nature would find possibly rather irritating, and therefore disengage from. How many non-vegetarians are likely to want to discuss the in depth benefits of vegetarianism? "Libertarian" is rather a vague term and not one that would tend to be used in all but the most philosophical, as opposed to hard evidence based arguments (it would be unacceptable in my field). Ditto detailed discussions on baby excema and overuse of paracetamol. If you haven't made a specific point of reading Dickens, which unless you are an English literature Arts graduate is entirely possible, you might not immediately recognise "Pip" from "Great Expectations".

There are a lot of conversations I might have with work colleagues on my specific area of speciality that I wouldn't condemn someone else for not understanding or being interested in. Even though some of my field is often in the public eye, but its specialised and can be boring. But what I do find an utter turn off is those pseudo-intellectual type lecturing types, who think they know it all and who seem more interested in making other people look stupid or who cannot cope with anyone coming at something from a slightly different angle.

Are you sure you aren't lecturing him? That said, if you have nothing in common, then leave. But many might find an overly intellectual or very artistic yet impractical partner equally trying.

With Chandler on the liberal wool minded pseudo-intellectual stuff.

My OH has Science Masters + seriously smart - he knows everything, even before stuff happens!

He has an interest in Imperial Japan and pre-WW1 Europe. I made the mistake of introducing him to a history graduate. Won't do that again! I found out he does not differentiate between a GCSE and PHD in History; the PHD just requires more BS. He regards all humanities as hobbies/jokes and History esp. as nothing more than an individual view or opinion - he does have a point.

He's not snobby, he likes chatting to people. He just does not give humanity subjects any more weight than, say, a GCSE qualification. Looking at my friends who studied Humanities at Uni, it does not seem most other employees do either.

hereandthe
He regards all humanities as hobbies/jokes and History esp. as nothing more than an individual view or opinion - he does have a point.
He's not snobby

Yeah, I can think of better words than snobby.

I just noticed the reference to Pip from Great Expectations . You haven't just met this bloke, I think you knew that he wouldn't get the reference but you made it anyway just to make the point that you are superior to him and it's yet another example of his failings.

You sound an awful snob.

My DH isn't that well educated in that he is only good at one subject, flunked everything else. He's not well read and likes to watch reality tv. He is however very socially intelligent and good with people and that I value a hell of a lot more than an interest in current affairs. I think it's just incompatibility. What attracted you in the first place OP?

The specifics of what he does and doesn't understand/the value thereof aren't really the point - there seems to be a lot of projecting going on here now.

It doesn't matter if you would go out with him or not, or whether you think the OP is insufferably pompous/a snob - there's someone for everyone.

Two people who are fundamentally incompatible at worldview level should be free to break up and find a true match.

Please don't stay for the DC OP, years of low-level sniping can be just as harmful to children as an acrimonious break-up (I wish someone had told my parents that).

I don't think you sound like a snob at all OP - and I get where you are coming from. It's the lack of intellectual curiosity and critical thinking that is so wearing isn't it? in my case I think it was that, especially the willingness to uncritically accept some rather bonkers ideas he found online, that finally killed my marriage. When I pointed out the dubious nature of some of the ideas he was accepting (and trying to pass onto the dc - remember the "Mayan prophecy" anyone?) then he retreated into his world of "people not bright enough to question things they read on the internet" and ended up leaving me and marrying one of them. luckily for him she's very dim so thinks of him as a bit of a guru .

and no, this was not clearly an issue when we met and married. We met at Uni, my ex is actually very bright and good at reproducing what is needed to do well in exams. As has been said upthread, it's not really about intelligence it's about an attitude to life and learning that sometimes only really emerges when you get to live with someone. My ex was also amazed at the fact I liked to read in bed, he prided himself on not having read a novel . Yes a red flag, but I didn't know what red flags were 30 yrs ago!

I have not read all posts, but OP, I do feel for you, I also am educated (MA) but my DH is not, he left school at 15. When we first met, I was so physically attracted to him, and the sex was amazing. Thanksfully DH is naturally curious and definitely intelligent, or it would never have worked!

It sounds like your DH hasn't really changed since you met, in the sense of he hasn't developed and matured? I think that changing with age and experiences is natural for an intelligent person.

Anyway, I can understand that you feel you are with the wrong person. Try to do a thought experiment - in 10 years, how are you if you are still with him? And then do it again, how are you 10 years without him? And do it again in 2 weeks and see if you get the same result. Try to think of what you would regret - is it staying with him or leaving him?

i once wrote on mumsnet in a similar vein about my exDH, and got absolutely slated from here to eternity. My issues were dullness born out of a shrinking interest in the world outside of his little bubble of work/home/tv....and it co-incided with me developing more confidence and needing more intellectul stimulation etc....funny , everyone said i was awful to consider leaving just because my exdh 'bored' me.
I get the whole issue about not being able to have a conversation about say eczema treatment... it was such an issue for me...i would 'get' what needed to be done for DD and i would have to repeat instructions over and over to exDH , often talking slowly and then he would look blankly at me when i asked him the next day if he had put her cream on ! aghhhhh.....

You are not unreasonable or an intellectual snob, you have the rest of your life ....do you want to be with this person for that ?

will add...spelling my one failing :)

OP I sympathise. You and your partner appear fundamentally mismatched. And I disagree with the "suck it up for the children" comments. It won't work, resentment will build up. How you ended up being in a long term relationship with him however, I don't know.

But I must say you have known this man for so long, and you start discussions about vegetarianism and libertarianism? Really? And English literature, given that he doesn't read? You are not helping the situation. I can see that you are frustrated but he probably is frustrated too, and being made to feel inadequate all the time.

I would end the relationship if I were you. If learning, curiosity, interest in the arts and sciences, discussion and debate are ingrained in your personality you can't really push those needs and interests aside forever.

the human jam - I'm not going around spouting literary references, it just happened to come up because i have a friend who was given £ from a 'secret donor' in school and it was like Pip in Great Expectations so I mentioned the similarity! Sometimes you have information in your brain and it just comes out - ditto with words that you know.

FGS would it be better if I referenced something more populist? I'm pretty sure DP doesn't know what Fifty Shades of Grey is either!