Have you ever come across a Sociopath / Psychopath?

[Bursarymum]

I've been reading 'The Sociopath Next Door'. And it got me thinking. Psychopathic killers are rare but it seems those without any conscience are not so rare.

ByTheSea - it sounds like you and your family have been through an horrific time. Most of us can walk away from destructive people in our lives but when it's your own child that's a very difficult situation. I can't imagine...

Absolutely Bythesea He was incredibly charming, very bright and brilliant at his work.
In my mother he found a nicely brought up , sheltered woman with low self esteem and he knew he could manipulate her.
His mother played siblings against each other and as he was her eldest, really bigged him up.

He tended to be surrounded by people who valued his wit, charisma etc more than anything else. Although it should be said that towards the end of his life he descended into a pitiful life with very few friends, but that was what he made it.

By the sounds of it you are doing the right thing to protect yourself and your family. At some point you have to accept some people are beyond help

My mums best friends son. Without a shadow of a doubt.

You know the minute he's in the room, because the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. Literally. I'm talking head to toe goose bumps and an overwhelming need to take flight immediately.

I find him fascinating. I grew up taking holidays with him and we'd get dragged to each others houses whenever our mums wanted to catch up. I always knew he was different, but it never bothered me if I'm honest. I'm one of the few people he will just about tolerate, I think because I've always been there and I've treated him as I would anyone else - whereas the rest of the world either wants to put an ocean between them and him or throw bricks at him because he's such an obnoxious, intolerable arse. I've always taken him as he comes. I'm used to him. We had this silent pact to just ignore each others flaws and play lots of Mario on the Sega Drive I think

Indicators:

• No empathy - and I mean none. Zilch.

• No conscience.

• Incredibly bright.

• God complex.

• Believes everybody is inferior and stupid.

• No emotional or physical pain thresholds. You could tell him his mum had just died whilst hitting him with a hammer and neither would warrant a reaction. I once witnessed his hand being accidently caught in my mums car door. It was mangled and he just sat there. No reaction to it at all. He was 8.

• Very little facial movement or body language to gage. He will just stand and stare at you blankly. He's never bothered learning the natural reactions most people have to certain things, I'm guessing because he feels it unimportant and not worth his time.

• General response to everything is "fine", even when it's out of context. I.e. Q: "God, this weather's awful isn't it?!" A: "Fine." People bore him. He's not interested in anything anyone says.

• His computer is loaded with graphic pictures of dead animals (animal cruelty, hunting, vicious dog fighting, etc) and horrifically sadistic porn. I only know that because my mums friend confided in her that she had found it on his laptop.

• Seemingly no awareness of personal space. Personally I believe he knows when he's making people uncomfortable, but he either doesn't care or gets a kick out of it.

• Neat as a pin and doesn't like his things being touched, but has absolutely no regard for anybody else's possessions.

• No attachments to anyone. No friends at all.

• Asexual. I mentioned porn further up - he enjoys the violence in it, not the sexual acts. People irritate him - he feels no attraction to anyone.

• He never lies. He's as brutally honest as they come. But he never needs to lie, because he can manipulate any person or situation any way he wants. We were all getting ready to go out once when we were kids, and his mum (my fake Auntie) asked my mum if she looked fat. Son immediately answered: "Yes, of course you look fat. You are fat. Don't ask such a stupid question. Can we go now? I'm bored." I've never forgotten it!

• He's quite open about his desire to inflict pain on people and animals. He doesn't, but the urge is there and he does fantasise about it. He finds pleasure in it the way most others would with sex.

• Impeccable self control.

Jeez, the list is just endless. He's been in and out of hospitals his whole life. He's incredibly high functioning in so many ways, and yet doesn't function at all in so many others. I'd write a damn book about him if the family/friend connection wasn't as close as it is.

Interesting what you say about your mother being a "nicely brought up, sheltered woman" whom you father knew he could manipulate, merrygoround. I do think that the type of woman you describe is very open to manipulation, be that by their husbands or children.

My dc also have attachment disorder (adopted.)

Wow Vino that was a chilling but fascinating read.

I think my dad is one. He is mean and nasty and has no idea of social niceties. Also is completely and utterly self absorbed.

He does care about people though like I know he loves us and especially the grand kids but he can turn on you in an instant.

Maybe he's just an arse.

merrygoround, it sounds like it is possible that your father's mother also had sociopathic tendencies; one thing I notice is the constant playing people against each other for whatever reason.

Notgivingupyet, I'm sorry you have this going on. DS went from attachment disorder to conduct disorder as a teen. Now this...

vinotime interesting what you say about asexuality. Both men I've had experience with both, on the surface, seemed very highly sexed. However, as I got to know them I believe they used sex to control and manipulate, not actually for their own pleasure. One of them has even told me he has a very low sex drive, but his behaviour would suggest the opposite.

We don't expect parents of children with other congenital abnormalities to 'nurture them out of it' and I think it's cruel to suppose they could have done so with a PD.
Gralic what an astute thing to say.

I've just read this whole thread and am really curious about the gaps in verbal reasoning, the aphasia, but don't really understand what sort of things you're referring to. Can anyone give some examples of this inability to grasp social meaning or the misuse of certain phrases? I'm not sure I've ever come across it.

Also have found this thread fascinating / chilling / upsetting.

For those who know a lot about this. What would the consensus be about someone 'becoming' a sociopath during mid life. So the signs were there in adolescence in terms of lack of empathy, selfish, superior etc. but it slotted in to his personality and people, myself included, seemed to just accept that was how he was. He had a number of good qualities like being funny and... Actually I'm struggling to think of any other good qualities. He was very good at talking to anyone, he'd always find something to talk about with whoever he was with. I used to admire this as sometimes I find it hard to keep a conversation going when I have nothing in common with someone but he would be excellent in those situations. All manipulation and false self I assume.

He would also correct grammar unnecessarily. I don't know if that fits in with the aphasia? We might talk about philosophy and instead of responding to an argument I had put across, he would pick me up on how I worded it. It used to drive me mad.

Anyway my question is. After a serious stressful life event, could someone become the very worst version of themselves and be described as a sociopath when before they would just have been called arrogant and selfish? A psychologist friend said that NPD could be 'dormant' in someone and then when times got tough, it could explode and completely take over / change the person. This has been my experience anyway.

As an extra - good upbringing. Was the 'golden child' as very talented in one area as a teen which he then failed at in early adulthood. Think this was the beginning of the end for him really.

Sorry to rant. Really find this interesting and has given me some answers to the devastation he has caused to my life.

Do you think that there are degrees of psycopathy/sociopathy like a scale or spectrum or is it an all or nothing type condition? Can some environments, or conditioning temper the tendencies.

The person I knew although lacking normal abilities to empathise on a daily basic, in some personal interaction could demonstration or maybe act emotional concern for others, and certainly himself. He almost seemed to need/thrive on others making themselves emotionally exposed to him in order to be able to empathise in someway. It seemed to me he was both emotionally cruel and calculating in order to make someone vulnerable so he could then feel and treat them with compassion. It was remarkable that he could see their pain which he expressed sympathy with, but failed to see he was actually causing the pain himself. It was like he was unable to see his own actions caused any impact on others.

I certainly can relate to the aphasia. You could make a simple statement whilst talking to him like "I've had a bit of a headache today" and he would then question it " a bit of a headache, that's a funny way of saying it, what does a bit mean?" rather than "I'm sorry to hear that". You could go round in circles discussing the meaning of a superficial turn of phrase, rather than the true content of what you were saying. It was very stressful to deal with, when you were feeling emotionally vulnerable.

Sorry lots of typos, damn autocorrect.

Hard to read this.

I've met a fair few (understatement)! For good or ill, these days I have stopped trying to work out what's going on with ppl like this.I kind of halfheartedly wonder if I've met yet another one (or even if the true sociopath/narc/whatever is not the one I thought eg the victim is actually the perp... or whatever).

I suppose I've become quite avoidant as it can fry the heart and mind to be focusing in this stuff. For me, anyway. I've had my fill, really.

Not much use to the thread - apologies. I do recognise I have the 'luxury' of avoiding eg I am not forced to negotiate this stuff eg a boss. Tho tbah i would leave the job, that's how avoidant I am about it - and yes it does mean a reduced life to a certain extent; possibly also defeatest? Re there's not a lot you can do about it. As I said, I've had my fill.

I should say I am NC with most of my narc/sociopath/whatever family; my n/s/w ex, father of my children, is dead. I am aware I am attracted to n/s/w people [new with Wales??] but bcs my initial intuition is so fucked - in large part to NSW family - I give it a go, just in case. However, irrefutable evidence (I know the score by now) and I DROP them there and then, no tidying up.

Apologies for ramblings though.

There is the small matter that at least one of my children is possibly NSW. But that's for another day, I suppose - day at a time and all that. I am so weary with it all and want, choose!, to LIVE.

springy

familyofthree In the sort of person you're talking about, I suspect that the tendancies have always been there but underlying and traits that way can slowly grow until he'd be assessed as not so much having traits as having the full blown condition. Yes, people can and do change significantly after a major life event (especially if they feel the touch of their own mortality actually).

It leaves you wondering where exactly the brain wiring fits into things but silverbirch from what I've read there really is a continuum. Some people seem hardwired from very early on; others are much more plastic and can be influenced for good or bad and still others gradually slide into a full blown condition. In the end, people with antisocial personality disorder are still people. They don't come in one rigid format. They don't all have exactly the same characteristics either, you don't have to have the full checklist to be diagnosed.

People generally become more themselves as they get older and their underlying character becomes more obvious, rather than their personality. You can't tell with a lot of early 20's people what they will become later, it's too fluid. But there would probably have been a pattern of things that you could notice, with someone who would be assessed with antisocial personality disorder for a long time.

I've jsut realised how badly that post is written. Sorry

last sentance should read "there would probably have been a pattern of things you could notice for a long time, with someone who would be assessed as having ASPD later on".

I was in a situation where I was dealing with people with PDs on a semi-professional level btw, so I'm not trained but do have rather more experience than is comfortable

This has been a fascinating, if extremely chilling read for me.

I am starting to think that my friend's 2 teen DS have sociopathic tendencies at the least - total lack of empathy being the most obvious, but also vicious, destructive behaviour. The mum was recently diagnosed as bi-polar and is now very stable, but she wasnt stable at all when the children were smaller.

Would her lack of stability (manic mood swings etc) have helped accentuate these tendencies I think I can see in her boys? I have NO intention of saying any of this to her, btw, but I am currently the shoulder to cry on for the problems she is having with them both and I wondered if some background reading might help me to help her?

I flat shared with a psychopath 20 years ago. He was empty, calculating and predatory but he was also scarily fascinating.

Even though I was naive it was obvious that he had grandoise ideas and really lived in his own world, although I couldn't put a name to it at the time.

He really enjoyed playing at emotions but they were acted, not felt so conversations had a hollow ring to them.

He thought that women were there for his gratification and that his time and energy had a sexual value. So in return for a 30 minute conversation he wanted sex in return.

I wasn't in a relationship with him and left the flat share when I woke one day to find him virtually naked in my bedroom.

A year later he was on crimewatch, turns out that while I was flat sharing with him he was a serial rapist, hiding in womens homes and in cemeteries and then violently beating and raping his victims.

That experience has made me much more alert to psychopaths / sociopaths.

There is a well known tv personality in the UK who I think is a sociopath. I read his biography - which was supposed to be funny - but it sent chills through me. The publication of his book (and the exposure of his personality) virtually ended his career.

Would her lack of stability (manic mood swings etc) have helped accentuate these tendencies I think I can see in her boys?

Maybe the lack of home stability might have not so much accentuated the tendancies. What it might have done is not provided a good strong nurturing environment for them.

From what I've read that seems to be vital in giving people a chance to acquire an ethical values system that sticks. Empathy is a strong tool in becoming a decent person, but in the end giving the boys an environment where they had a strong habit of consideration for other people, for ethical behaviour etc would have been the best way of turning them into people who behave decently.

Also if their mother was unstable, they may have learned that manipulation was a survival strategy. Someone who's struggling with emotions/perceptions can be all too easy to manipulate, sometimes as a necessity if you're powerless. But it's a tool that's hard to put down once you know it works - especially if other peoples' unhappiness isn't something yo care about.

Might MIND be a good place to start? Most of what I've picked up was from professional MH workers myself. MIND has leaflets on personality disorders and almost certainly has recommendations for further reading.

(one thing I find is that under extreme stress, almost everyone has the capacity to act like a real bastard. The problem is that people with ASPD, that capacity is far closer to the surface. But we can all be rotten in the wrong circumstances, if pushed far enough).

Bonsoir There is no doubt he really pursued her. She knew quite early on that there was something wrong but due to a low opinion of herself she just couldn't or wouldn't leave.

My grandparents begged her not to marry him and my grandfather died of a heart attack soon after they married. Soon after my grandmother died and then, of course, Mum was left isolated.

It is sad to see a mental illness pass through to the next generation - my brother has a mental illness that is not quite the same, but clearly passed down through the generations.

Im sure my exH has npd and is a sociopath. Thankfully have been NC for nearly 9 years.

He was a lot older than me when we met and as a teenager and I was very easy to impress. He very much enjoyed that but quickly changed if I seemed to doubt or question anything he said.

He had no friends and generally thought himself very superior to others.

He had no empathy or sympathy towards other people.

He was a pathological liar and would make stories up for no apparent reason.

He had no respect for rules, laws or any kind of authority. It was like he thought he could do whatever he pleased legally and morally.

He was absolutely charm personified when he chose to be.

When I finally woke up and smelt the coffee and left him he made my life a living hell for several years.

Finally when his mask slipped he just disappeared.