Have you ever come across a Sociopath / Psychopath?

[Bursarymum]

I've been reading 'The Sociopath Next Door'. And it got me thinking. Psychopathic killers are rare but it seems those without any conscience are not so rare.

Many poets & authors have disagreed with you, Charis!

Here's one psychopath's opinion on the matter. As he points out (frequently) not all psychopaths are the same.

Many poets & authors have disagreed with you, Charis!

Poets, exactly, I think there is a time and a place for poetic licence, but it is a bit of a waste of time on a thread where people are mostly giving real life descriptions of what they have experienced. It does cast doubt over anything else that poster has described.

Some people definitely have 'dead' eyes.

Eyes are incredibly expressive in normal interactions, but people who are seeking to control you rather than engage with you, or literally do not care about you, have a flat look. Often doesn't match the rest of the facial expression that they have put on in order to convince you.

I have thought twice about posting this but I think my dc are psychopaths/sociopaths. It was first put to me a few years ago by a social worker.

Oh notgivingup how impossibly hard.

A lot of professionals think there are far more sociopathic / psychopathic people in society than is ever recognised because most of them can and do live reasonable and non-destructive lives. It seems to be a very hard job for the parents to get them to adulthood but many succeed. I really hope you can get the support and your children turn out the same.

I feel as if I am holding on to them until they are locked up.

Notgivingup, have your children had any kind of involvement with the likes of CAHMS in order to get a correct diagnosis of any problems they may have?

Oh yes, multiple diagnoses, medication, therapy, every agency involved that you can think of.

Psychiatrists, behaviour support, psychotherapy, special education, social workers, crime prevention team....

The boy who I suspect as a psychopath certainly has a "cold" look - he will do something unacceptable, and then stare straight at you. His eyes just look "blank", I can't find any other way to describe it. I have to say I haven't seen anything like it, but it does send chills through me.

He does have other strange behaviours. He is very manipulative for his age. He likes to take my DC to one side when no-one is looking and whisper frightening things into his ears. I have never met a child of that age that is so accomplished at lying, and when something goes wrong (which it inevitably does when he is around) he already has a story for when he's confronted. He likes hurting people physically, and shows no remorse.

I worry about where he will end up. On the surface, his family seem nice and normal, but now knowing them very well, his parents are very dysfunctional. Power games, manipulation, passive aggressiveness. They have a very "odd" relationship. I worry that any hope of this child turning out ok is being eroded away by his parents.

Notgivingup, I cant imagine your heartbreak.

I'm really sorry to hear that notgivingup - I can't imagine it.

I don't get how one eye can look colder or deader than another. An eye is just an eye.

Check out an American convicted murderess by the name of Jodi Arias.

Her eyes are the deadest eyes I have ever seen. They have absolutely no light or reflection in them - just black centres, like they are made out of discs of black felt or some other completely non-reflective dense material.

Even when she smiles, tries to look girlish and demure - the eyes stay the same. Gives me the shivers.

I think the thing with the eyes is to do with eye movement. We show our emotions, often unconsciously, with the way we move our eyes and the area around them, and others, again mostly unconsciously, read these emotions. A psychopath doesn't have these same emotions, therefore they don't move their eyes in the same way as most people do, therefore their eyes look dead. It's almost an uncanny valley thing. Kind of the visual equivalent of always speaking in an emotionless, monotone voice.

If you look at photographs of normal people, usually you can see an emotion even if you cover up the nose and mouth

I've got to say I can't see it in photographs Even in person I have to try quite hard to figure out what's making me uncomfortable - unless they're doing the rage, by which time it's too late. I guess this goes some way to explaining how I managed to throw my lot in with so many dangerous nutters: I must be easily fooled!

There's one exception, a man called Tim who was in my teenage friendship group. His eyes were that ice-blue, almost transparent colour. The pupil size never changed except in response to light and his gaze was unusually calm & steady - detached. I distanced myself after witnessing something awful he did to his younger brother (he made sure I couldn't stop him.) A couple of years later he was sentenced to life. I am actually nervous of anyone with eyes like that now, probably quite unfairly.

I posted earlier in the thread that I am sure that DS2-18 (my stepson who I raised) is a psychopath/sociopath. I think I have known for a long time. He was a textbook case of Reactive Attachment Disorder/Developmental Trauma, having been exposed to drugs and alcohol in utero and neglected as an infant as well as being separated traumatically from his birth mother when he was 7 months old. In retrospect, I wish I knew then what I know now about attachment - DH and I would have parented him therapeutically from the beginning rather than using normal parenting techniques. I can't say for sure it would have made a difference though. He was diagnosed at about 10 or 11 with RAD, but we had been seeking help since he was four with his behaviours, which included stealing, constant lying, manipulating others, triangulation of adults, soiling and smearing as a weapon, firesetting, destruction of everything, no remorse or empathy, difficulty with eye contact except when lying and many other abhorrent behaviours all the while being superficially charming to people to who don't really know him.

I have recently discovered that he also sexually abused one of my other DC over a period of six years. He was between 5 and 11 at the time. She had suppressed the memories and dissociated and then at adolescence began having mental health problems in line with PTSD. She is in therapy now and hopefully can put this behind her. We thought we were so vigilent in looking out for things like this and never trusted him but he was able to pull it off. He was so clever, sneaky and manipulative and he terrorised and threatened her. :(

We had to have him accommodated when he was 11 as at that point we felt we needed to for the safety of the rest of the family. We advocated for him throughout his childhood, seeking therapies, medications, and finally an excellent residential EBD school. When he turned 16, he decided he couldn't be bothered and left there. He has since descended into a life of crime. He is currently on remand awaiting court - I understand he has several pending charges against him.

I have to go now, may post more later...

Oh, ByTheSea and Notgivingup, how incredibly hard. I'm so sorry.

Like most people, I've always believed that personality disorders are created through early experience - probably with a genetic predisposition and, if you have genetic parents with that disposition, then you're more likely to suffer damaging early experiences.

This theory would suggest, though, that an adequately secure & therapeutic upbringing can prevent the condition developing. I don't believe this any more. Some of my 'nice psychopaths' had properly lovely backgrounds. Being loved by their families might have helped them to realise they were differently wired and to seek appropriate guidance, but it didn't change their emotional profile. And they all freely admit they'd have no compunction about committing major crimes if they felt it necessary - the main difference is that they've chosen to accept wider society's definition of 'necessary'. I guess if they hadn't been able to find pleasing slots in life for themselves, they might easily have decided to create some by illegal means.

This is turning into a ramble, sorry. I'm thinking aloud that careful & caring support must provide the DC with helpfully rounding qualities, although it is tragic to accept there's only so much one can do.

We don't expect parents of children with other congenital abnormalities to 'nurture them out of it' and I think it's cruel to suppose they could have done so with a PD. The best you can do is all you can do.

On the nature vs nurture angle of the development of psychopaths/sociopaths: the importance of abiding by the same rules/laws as everyone else is, I think, transmitted quite strongly (or not) within families. And manipulative behaviour, if not picked up upon by primary caregivers but rather indulged can get hard wired early on.

I really second what Bonsoir said. My father certainly had narcisstic qualities and was indulged by his mother and enabled by his wife to the point where he more or less became what I would call a sociopath.

No murderous sprees or anything like that but an utterly callous disregard for others feelings or needs

notgivingup Was or is your DH the same?

My brother has a psychiatric disorder and these things are often genetically linked

Well, we who raised my DS are a loving, working, law-abiding family who do not indulge manipulative behaviour. However, quite the opposite can be said of DS's birth mother and some of that family.

Nice to feel blamed by others for raising a psychopath, especially when I feel so much guilt around the abuse the rest of the family suffered having him in it and DH and myself never giving up on him. Hmmm...

Bythesea No one is blaming but I do think that I am free to say what influenced my father turning out the way he did

Good luck with your DS

Thanks merryground51. Could it be that your father deliberately found someone who would enable him and he exploited it? I know DS has always found a merry little band of followers attracted to his charisma. He totally exploits this and gets them to do his bidding.

And to comment on the blank eyes, yes, they can be blank but he can really put on the right face when he needs to, but if you know him, you know the feelings aren't even skin deep. And they can go dark from behind the eyes to the point of being terrifying if his manipulations are not working as he wants.