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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Have you ever come across a Sociopath / Psychopath?

453 replies

Bursarymum · 26/04/2015 09:25

I've been reading 'The Sociopath Next Door'. And it got me thinking. Psychopathic killers are rare but it seems those without any conscience are not so rare.

OP posts:
DeckSwabber · 30/05/2015 06:21

truly yes I agree there is a real danger in labelling people. Do you think the person labeling you is being vindictive/unjust, or are they genuinely looking for answers?

I was thinking that if there is a problem a diagnosis could be really helpful.

I find the person in my life very very difficult, and I think it would really help to know whats going on so that I how to deal with him that is not just going to end up in people getting hurt. However, I doubt that is every going to happen because according to him its the rest of us who need help.

Gilrack · 30/05/2015 08:50

I was thinking that if there is a problem a diagnosis could be really helpful.

Yes. Even if the diagnosis does turn out to be a sociopathy, it is still helpful - I say this from having been in treatment with diagnosed psychopaths, narcissists and histrionics alongside people with addictions, bi-polar and other mood disorders.

When you feel like "everyone's out of step except me", it's jolly useful to get an actual explanation for it and expert guidance in how to improve your life experience.

DeckSwabber · 30/05/2015 09:04

Gilrick how would you persuade someone to get help/get a diagnosis?

In my situation the person is supported (maybe I should say 'enabled') enough to be protected from the direst consequences, so I can't see any 'rock bottom' moment occurring.

Gilrack · 30/05/2015 09:45

You can't, Deck, unless they go off the rails badly enough to require intervention. Most 'nice psychopaths', as far as I understand it, were either well supported as teenagers to explore why they felt differently from other young people, or experienced a crisis in adulthood.

When it comes down to brass tacks, personality disorders are not in themselves destructive to the subject. If they manage their social interactions astutely, they can stomp through life without ever having to examine their own selves. Sounds like the enabler you mentioned would be best advised to get the hell out and give clear reasons ... hard to do if you've already been 'trained' to patch things up.

Gilrack · 30/05/2015 09:46
  • sorry, I should have said Cluster B disorders. Some of the others are extremely painful to live through.
ClareAbshire · 30/05/2015 09:51

Very interested in this. Place marking to read later.

Lioninthesun · 30/05/2015 10:27

Dd's dad is one of the two. I know he is a narc (always describes himself and everything he does as 'awesome' and saw little point in doing anything mundane-he'd read while I did it) and had 2 surgeries while I was with him to 'perfect' himself. He also gave to buskers very flamboyantly on the high street, made a show of holding open doors, being very charming. He is good looking and great at his job (very technical). Most of his friends are work related, his boss for example, as he has little social skills to attract people in new friendships - however people who he can bore talk to for hours about his work admire him. He had a strange habit of ignoring what you were saying and looking like he really really wanted to talk over you (sort of hmming and half nodding while rushing you to finish so he could blurt something out about his idea). He has managed to convince people in his family that we weren't in a relationship (his brother stayed in my house, I emailed his mother in NZ for months and even his ex g.f knew we were in a relationship) but he has convinced them that him living with me and having a child was all me being manipulative! He was heavily dependant on drink and codine when I threw him out (partly due to his operation to make him perfect - one leg was 1cm shorter than the other!) but he admitted he was an addictive personality and loved codine. As soon as I threw him out (too unstable, frankly dangerous and made me doubt myself hugely) he went into hiding from CSA and and decided we had never had a relationship. He has gone out of his way to pretend she doesn't exist and now is saying he will only see her if I drop CSA - making her all about the money. He says he thinks of her but there simply doesn't seem to be any emotional reaction to see her, only monetary. He only pays £5 pw so I suspect it is because he 'lost' at avoiding paying maintenance. He now makes out that I am the one who is not trustworthy!
He was never violent but keen on danger, would put himself in high risk situations, like walking towards a gang of teens who were taunting him to fight when dd was 2 weeks old... Is that a sociopath or phsycopath? I'm sure he's one or the other. Are there any links to it being hereditary? His dad was a very odd character too!

Lioninthesun · 30/05/2015 10:33

Also am wondering at job links - he was in the army for a while, attracted to the danger I think.
He'd do things like leave a perfectly good car abandoned in a car park and not even think about it being towed (leaving me with the bill through the door when dd was born) and yet still go on about needing more money - the car was worth a bit but collecting it and dealing with the situation never crossed his mind. Quite like the running away from dd actually...

Gilrack · 30/05/2015 11:02

My instinct is to say a proper psychopath would manage things better than your ex, Lion, but plenty of people with anti-social personality disorder do live chaotically. I guess it depends on their particular collection of traits/characteristics.

The word 'psychopath' is currently out of favour with mental health professionals, who mostly prefer 'anti-social personality disorder'. There is intense disagreement over this, and even over whether psychopathy is a PD or a different kind of neurological phenomenon.

A personality disorder is a very rigid personality. NT people move between different states all the time: we're sometimes narcissistic; sometimes cruel; sometimes dependent, and all the rest. It's normal to be in several different states over the course of a day and to be feeling two or three different things at the same time. NT people take this for granted and have freedom to choose whether to go with one state for now or change our attitude. Personality disordered people do not have this range and lack the freedom to choose; they're locked in their personal patterns and cannot understand that other people's characters are more fluid.

When the current DSM (v5) was being written, the panel was in favour of completely altering the Cluster B structure. All of the disorders were going to be called 'sociopathy' (it means to have pathological difficulties with society) and the various characteristics - anti-social, histrionic, narcissistic, borderline and others - would be classified as traits. This would give professionals the capacity to describe each individual's disorder in terms that applied particularly to them. There was much opposition to this (entertainingly, a lot of it came from people with NPD guarding their label!) so what we have at the moment is a sort of compromise; it's used differently by different schools of psychiatry although the fundamental move towards diagnosing multiple traits has been welcomed.

All of which is a long-winded way of saying don't get too hung up on the labels. If you are dealing with someone who "is not as others" and seems terribly inflexible in their thinking, then knowing about the traits can help you decide how to deal with them. If calling it sociopathy, ASPD, NPD, or whatever helps you understand and classify it, then use the words you find helpful. Ignore people who try to say you mustn't unless there's a clinical diagnosis - the majority of Cluster B subjects never present for diagnosis and, even if they do, a different shrink might use different words for the same thing.

Lioninthesun · 30/05/2015 11:53

Yes, I think I wanted to label it to look up how to deal with it, but as he is not in our lives now, I am worried it might be hereditary.

Gilrack · 30/05/2015 13:01

Nobody knows. There appear to be a few genes for psychopathy, but their significance is totally unclear. If someone were to inherit all the genes that have been identified so far AND suffer early childhood trauma, they would probably be at risk. Even that's not certain.

If you have a child whose experience of empathy and conscience, say, seems markedly different from the norm, then you could do your best to equip them for a healthy & balanced life given what they have to work with. You could doubtless access professional help with this. You need to remember, though, that theory of mind doesn't finish developing until the early twenties and NO small children are capable of true empathy or conscience. All young children are narcissists; it's developmentally normal.

IsThatWhoIThink · 30/05/2015 23:38

TrulyAgog have sent you a PM.

trulyagog · 31/05/2015 00:00

Is that Have replied. Thanks

Deckswabber In reply to your question Do you think the person labeling you is being vindictive/unjust, or are they genuinely looking for answers?"

A little from column a , a little from column b. I don't think the person is being intentionally vindictive , however , the person is being very unjust. I think the person has become obsessed in looking for answers to questions that don't actually need answering (to such a deep extent) and looking for reinforcement of negative reasons why a relationship may have taken a particular course. I'm not sure the person realises how damaging these assumptions , guesses , amateur psychologist opinions can be to the other person and how throwing these labels around cheaply can be very very dangerous (for all concerned)

Gilrack · 31/05/2015 00:54

I've been trying not to ask but my curiosity won ... In what way can this person's evaluation of your character be 'very very dangerous' to you? And when you say 'for all concerned', are you saying that simply giving their opinion is severely threatening to them?

IsThatWhoIThink · 31/05/2015 01:20

Truly I'm confused by your answer too. If that person feels their interaction with you gives them/and/or other people the perception that you may have a problem, to the extent these labels are used (presumably fairly seriously, or you wouldn't have posted on here) - is it up to you to suggest their questions don't need answering? It sounds like you have really upset them/others.

Isn't that how sociopath/NPD person would reply?

I am also confused by 'very very dangerous'. Presumably you would have asked the other person why they were unjust, rather than just rejecting them out of hand.

PS: I don't believe you!

trulyagog · 31/05/2015 01:26

Because labelling someone ,who may be suffering from other conditions such as anxiety or depression or some type of ASD, just as examples
as basically being a lunatic (apologies for the crude term) could be very very damaging to the person being labelled.It could impact negatively on their mental wellbeing.

If, again for example, the depressed person had been looking for help amongst friends but the labeller had decided that a common behaviour of s-paths is to seek pity from everyone so this person simply must be one and just playing the manipulation game etc etc , that could be dangerous. And is the opinion may not have been given directly , rather spread around in a rather throw away but ultimately malicious fashion to other people. And there may be more lives involved than just the labeller and the victim.

IsThatWhoIThink · 31/05/2015 01:41

I agree, the above is unhelpful and not fair.

trulyagog · 31/05/2015 02:27

Is that "ps I don't believe you"

Are you referring to my answer to you by PM , as you are definitely barking up the wrong tree there I'm afraid, sorry. Unless I have misread completely but pretty certain not.

If its about my previous post then fair enough. I've not much more to say on it other than I worry about these very serious psychological labels being banded about so casually and without proper foundation as the latest buzzwords. You seem to be then agreeing later on?

Oh well. It is getting late on a saturday for such a deep conversation. night.

DeckSwabber · 31/05/2015 08:23

There is a very serious issue here.

People have upsets all the time, and it was helpful of Gilrack to identify that we all have moments when we behave like a narcissist etc. I had one of those moments yesterday - found myself butting in with my own story at the wrong moment when talking to someone who was quite distressed. But I realised what I was doing, felt ashamed of myself and shut up.

Someone may behave in a certain way and if it gets intolerable/causes significant problems we have to decide what to do about it.

Labeling them with a disorder could be a way of avoiding examining our own behaviour and absolving ourselves of responsibility for the failure of the relationship. The labeling closes doors on potential resolution.

On the other hand, if they really do not have the capacity to feel emotions such as shame or guilt, do not recognise values such as fairness, and are unable to empathise with others or identify that their behaviour is causing distress, any interaction is going to be extremely damaging.

trulyagog · 31/05/2015 09:34

Deckswabber . Your post is bang on. Also I agree regarding Gilracks points. Everyone is capable of behaving in a rubbish way now and then. If you broke down every single behaviour that someone exhibited (e.g during an argument, when drunk , when really busy , when stressed out, when tired) these individual actions could easily technically be labelled selfish / abusive / narcissistic / sociopathic if someone really wanted to. It doesn't mean that the person on the whole IS an abuser or a sociopath . Just like you are not a narcissist because you butted into someone else's conversation yesterday. And clearly , your last paragraph says it all too regarding the flipside of that.

Gilrack · 31/05/2015 11:36

Thank you for your replies, truly. I have been - and am - misunderstood, misjudged and maliciously represented by various people. It does hurt, yes, and in at least one case (where my attacker was a textbook narcissist) it permanently damaged my career. The things that happened around that time forced me into therapy. This gave me deeper insight into what was happening and better defences. It also showed me the flaws in my character which made me particularly vulnerable to those kinds of attacks.

My therapists initially supposed I was paranoid and over-entitled. I took this in good spirit and the truths emerged over time. This also helped me to understand how I'd unknowingly facilitated my own abuse.

I have severe depression and an 'invisible' illness. You can imagine the potentials for other people to misrepresent me in materially harmful ways. I have learned that this is their issue, not mine, and that other people's opinions are as varied as humanity. Some opinions can be changed, if it's essential, but I've also learned it's wiser to respect their right to their beliefs and, whenever possible, to distance myself from those who would bully me.

If the people misrepresenting you have real power over your material well-being, then use the law and other formal procedures to stop them and strengthen your case. If the damage is mostly emotional, I'm afraid the most straightforward recourse is to remove yourself from their orbit. Find appropriate support and build yourself a better circle.
Good luck.

fedupnorthernmum · 31/05/2015 19:53

My ex was a narcissist and these are very similar to sociopaths in that they lack empathy, are ruthless, cruel, manipulative, unable to provide emotional support, deceitful the list goes on and on. We split up over 10 years ago and at this time I had no idea what he was, he was charming and my family loved him, the only clues I had was how 'cool' he was and his thinking was always black and white.

narcissists and sociopaths are the devils spawn, I have come across several due to my previously trusting nature I tended to attract them. I started a degree in psychology which is how I came to recognise what and who these people are. These people ruin lives, avoid at all costs, they cannot be saved and feed off other people's misery. AVOID AT ALL COSTS!

flippinada · 31/05/2015 20:26

fedupmum that sounds just like my XP.

As I said further upthread these people seem to display startlingly similar character traits.

Lioninthesun · 31/05/2015 23:05

bottle I just read your post about yr sister, and how he 'broke' her. I really empathise with that. My ex made me feel I was mentally unstable and hounded me about CSA and emails saying we never had a relationship. I remember getting so worried before he took me to court (to avoid maintenance) that when he was texting in the days before, telling me I may as well give up now before I embarrassed myself in court and how his family hated me he had found the love of his life and realised what a mess I was, how I had no ambition and had failed at life, had a baby to fill a void in my soul etc. I actually texted back asking what he thought breaking the mother of his child would be good for - seeing as he clearly didn't want to acknowledge her, he was basically trying to ensure the one person left looking after the baby was broken. I thought I was making it clear how low he was being, but he actually tried to show the text to the Judge in Court! She didn't want to know as it was (surprise surprise not about him) nothing to do with maintenance but it showed me how easily I 'gave evidence' for him to show around to say I was nuts.
It still riles me thinking about it all and he knows how to press all of my buttons to get me back there, defending myself, all over again.
He was also great at alienating and trying to alienate my friends. Then, before court, he emailed the couple he literally broke me up from and got them to send an email to the Judge stating I was mad! I know he will be doing this with his new partner, and really feel for her. However you can't get much more warning as a g.f than sitting in a court with a man raving about being 'tricked' and shouting at the Judge! Sadly some women just keep turning a blind eye until it is too late.
Anyway, I hope your sister is doing much better now Flowers

Imbroglio · 01/06/2015 07:23

The person in my life is not exactly 'ruthless'. They are a mess. But the reason they are a mess is that they do not see the bigger picture, cannot let go of their own hobby horses even if its alienating everyone else, and cannot recognise that it is their actions own that are causing the difficulties.

He will say in desperation that he can't understand why other people don't try harder to get along with him.

Attempts to negotiate with them fail because its impossible to establish common ground.