Have you ever come across a Sociopath / Psychopath?

[Bursarymum]

I've been reading 'The Sociopath Next Door'. And it got me thinking. Psychopathic killers are rare but it seems those without any conscience are not so rare.

With children of Ps, how can you tell whether behaviour is a psychopathic trait or learned defensive behaviour?

My DM had a truly dreadful upbringing thanks to her abusive father who was never diagnosed but probably psychopathic or schizophrenic. As such my upbringing was far from perfect - she went into rages similar to those described above and had the stare that terrified me and my friends and which I've apparently inherited. She could also be unthinkingly cruel and controlling. I don't think she is psychopathic or narcissistic herself but she definitely displays similar behaviours but the motive seems to be different - it's more that it's the only way she's learnt to be rather than because she enjoys upsetting people.

I'm a lot more aware of my own behaviour but naturally compartmentalise and have learnt to shut down negative emotions so can seem flat and perhaps "dead behind the eyes" at times. But these are coping behaviours rather than inbuilt traits, and I am extremely empathetic - almost too much as I struggle to feel sad for myself so seem to be over sensitive on the behalf of others as a release. I've also got a very strong sense of right and wrong due to the unfairness of my childhood - but at 14/15 I must have seemed like a psychopath because of my behaviours, iyswim?

dodos, have a look at this Fleas. It's about exactly what you say, the difference between someone with a genuine ASPD and the people who've picked up those habits by exposure to them.

It's quite reassuring. Does mean that you might have some thinking to do, but from what you say there's no chance at all you have ASPD (ahem, internet diagnosis here!). Internet diagnosis or not, children can be horrid little sods at times and so can teens. Maturing past that and learning is what makes the difference.

That Fleas stuff is so interesting. I was a real PITA when younger - I flew into rages and demanded things and sulked appallingly right up until I met DP. It was all learned from my dad's behaviour because he got all the attention in our family, and so, when I wanted or needed attention, I thought the way to get people to care about me and respond was to fly into one.

Took decades to realise that was not my natural personality and I'm actually far more like my mum - very laid back and calm. But in our family none of her needs were ever met. She was his doormat. I observed this and thought calm people got trodden on, so don't be quiet.

DH has ASD and is very unemotional. For all the problems that come with ASD, I love the fact that we don't live inside an emotional volcano like I did as a child.

Meerka that's the most illuminating thing I've read on my weird relationship with my mother. This section in particular was worryingly accurate:

When you're raised by a narcissist, you have to do things their way. There are house rules. No questioning. No expressing your needs. Accept the blame. Be a doormat. Criticism isn't allowed. You come last, if at all. Play along. Put on the show they want. Be wrong. Suck up. Don't be yourself. You're a nobody.

And it's very true that I've had to teach myself how to accept criticism because it was a personal attack. I think I've got a lot more reading to do - I'm really worried about perpetuating the cycle if I have my own DC and I think self awareness is the only way to break out.

And, sorry to derail the thread, but what's interesting is that despite that being the environment at home, I don't think my DM actually exhibits the traits of NP - yes she expects me to be the perfect child and a projection of her mothering skills and always go along with what she wants (which I think is learned behaviour of how a child should be from her childhood), but she is also very vocal about wanting me to do my own thing, be my own person and not be shaped by her. She just sometimes forgets that and has to remind herself.

yy to fleas. I am so excited to find out that there is a name for that.

I think I have fleas third hand. I thought my DM was an N when I was younger, but after she died and I saw the relationship between my aunt and granma in more detail, I realised that DG was the N and that DA and DM both has fleas- DA as the golden child and DM as the scapegoat. DM had flashes of insight and a side to her personality that wasn't at all N and could be reached a lot (bit of a tortuous route to it but she was aware enough of it to do something about it, precious little help in her day and age though). DA as golden child has much less incentive to see the patterns as what they were and so retained far more fleas than DM. DM would exhibit the patterns more when under extreme stress, just as I do, though I really try, especially with the criticism.

Same here Moustache - it's depressing that you can have 3rd hand "fleas". Looking at my cousins it'll probably go further than that though

Sorry not to update sooner - his real name is Chris Collins, goes by the initials FS. Comedian and presenter. Thoroughly nasty piece of work but certainly turns on the charm for TV.

merde I've never liked him one bit. I thought it was because of his really disgustingly misogyny, but that's not really at all incompatible with psychopathy is it?

*disgusting

precious little help in her day and age though isn't that the truth

honestly, I think the old thing in the bible that "the sins of the parents will be passed onto the children until the 8th generation" isn't a curse. It's simply a description of how treating kids badly affects them and then it all passes on.

Fortunately there's a lot of people break free of the pattern and there's also much more awareness now.

Agreed Moustache - I pity anyone close to him, especially women.

What a fascinating thread this is. My grandfather was certainly a psychopath/sociopath: a gaslighting, emotionally abusive, conscience-free liar. To his pub cronies he was the life and soul, a superficially charming and apparently successful man. To the people he was supposed to love and care for, he was pure poison.

He died when I was pg with my first DC and I felt overwhelming relief that my child would never have to even know his name.

My husband also had a psychopath in the family. This man was the golden child, an habitual liar and fraudster, and when it all unravelled he ended up in custody for attempted murder. The psychiatrist who assessed him said he was the most dangerous man he'd ever come across in his professional practice...and even then the guy almost managed to talk his way out of it all.

He is also now dead, thank fuck.

I am sure dds dad is one.

And know for a fact my ex step father is. Halfway through reading this thread and have found it informative and chilling.

Meerka I think that 8th generation thing is spot on. I look at a certain city I've lived in, one of which which has had large influxes of population from two specific very traumatic events in the 19th century, and see some of the clutural habits and just think "undiagnosed post traumatic stress symptoms cascaded down the generations, passed into habit and left untreated". Never mind people returning there from various world wars too.

As for my mum, she did her best to break the pattern, pretty much on her own, crippled by the self doubt and self censure being brought up by an N left her with, and still regularly exposed to the behaviour (she was always worse when shed had a lot of contact with DG recently). But if she'd had a few years with access to the internet to reinforce her own insights, talk to some people who'd been through the same thing (whilst safely anonymous), read some research, find the right books to read, I think she'd have gotten a lot further than inching forward a wee bit at a time on her own. I do think the internet is/will continue to be massive in helping people overcome the fleas.

God yes merde

Moustache totally agree re PTSD passing down dysfunctionality through the generations. My GF's father was apparently an even bigger bastard than he was, and he in turn had been raised by another emotionless Victorian dad...I do feel sorrow to think of the little boy my GF once was and what he might have become in different, better circumstances :(

The echoes of all that fucked-upness still ring through my family to this day. Both my dad and I choose to fight hard against the bad traits and habits wherever we see them e.g. my dad has always been extravagant with expressions of love, because GF thought that emotions were weak and unmanly and my dad was never shown any love or pride by his father.

The trouble is, you don't always see the bad habits...

Is anyone happily married to a sociopath, or in a loving family relationship with one?

There was a woman posted who had been diagnosed as sociopathic. from what she wrote, she was actually in quite a good relationship but her husband clearly realised she was not like other women. She said something like sometimes she says something that leaves him staring at her, like she'd suddenly developed another head. You can only go on what you see posted so you don't actually know how everyone else in her family saw her, but it sounded like she led a generally constructive life.

That is more my experience of sociopaths, I think, nothing mega scary, mostly contained well enough within families, albeit not particularly well liked.

You can't have a loving relationship with a P/S. Mainly because they don't see people as people and they aren't even capable of loving their own children.

I think most P/S 's have loving relationships though. maybe they don't experience that the way we do, but still love.

My ex stepfather is definitely a sociopath. And my uncle.

My stepfather is an incredibly intelligent, charismatic man. But his eyes give it away. Me and my mum could tell when he had stopped playing at being normal and gone into his own self just by looking at his eyes. They haunt me and I haven't seen him for knocking on 20 years.

He was very well respected in the mental health service. And used that knowledge at a later date to fake a breakdown to the point of being committed. But not enough to be detained for longer than the couple of months it took to completely break my mother financially and make her think that she would be better off staying with him for our sakes.

I see his traits in some of his dcs. One has terrible rages. And once they have had just a little bit of drink or drugs they are incapable of censoring themselves. Another has a lack of social skills. They have learnt as they have gotten older but worryingly I see in their partner the exact same personallity as my sf.

Another is incredibly selfish. Most of the time they hide it really well but due to a change in their circumstances their true colours are coming out.

And even in their children I see it. 1 nephew has harmed animals a couple of times. Another is just in the process of being referred to CAMHs for his issues.

My cousin (whose father was a sociopath) is diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. We are very similar in age and grew up together. He has very little pain perception. No empathy. I don't think he has schizophrenia. I think it is faked to allow him to live in society and have certain benefits so he can do what he wants when he wants.

I asked him once if he did hear the voices he said he did. He told me that hearing voices was more 'acceptable' than the truth to his family and society. And that if the voices are someone else's you don't get held to account for your actions. But you had to know how far you could go with it.

He is terrifying. I know one day he will go too far. He has a drug problem and this makes his behaviour even more erratic.

louise did you accidentally post on the wrong thread? If so cut and paste it and start a thread of your own or post it to the one you intended.