Have you ever come across a Sociopath / Psychopath?

[Bursarymum]

I've been reading 'The Sociopath Next Door'. And it got me thinking. Psychopathic killers are rare but it seems those without any conscience are not so rare.

But his eyes give it away. Me and my mum could tell when he had stopped playing at being normal and gone into his own self just by looking at his eyes. They haunt me and I haven't seen him for knocking on 20 years.

I'm sorry to be pedantic, but this just blatantly isn't true.

An eye is an eye is an eye. It can be one of a handful of colours, it can open or close, weep or water, or dilate, and that is all.

It can get various infections or diseases, but it can not look cold, or dead, or any of the other things people are claiming.

Of course, it can decompose once it actually is dead.

As I said up thread, it is purely a figure of speech, or poetic licence, that uses these descriptions for eyes. Which is fine in a poem or figurative speech, but is completely pointless in a discussion about real life psychopaths.

This condition can be pretty catastrophic, but it isn't always. There are people with this condition who maintain loving relationships, and never cross the boundary into crime. There is medication and treatment, which works well for some people. Also, many psychopaths are actually pretty harmless. My second cousin is a psychopath. He is of quiet low intelligence and non existent organisational skills. His life is a disaster, but he wouldn't be capable of harming anyone else. He is so overweight and unfit he couldn't move fast enough to be dangerous apart from anything else. His parents love and care for him, as they would for any offspring with special needs ( He is an adult They also have two normal adult children)

My sons teenage ex best friend is a psychopath. His mother is a good friend of mine. My son is mostly just very bored with his obsession with computer games and their relationship is pretty non existent at the moment, although they do keep in touch, and the two families go out together occasionally.

This boy can be dangerous, although he is far more likely to harm himself or property than another person. He is being treated, and openly discusses his condition and treatment. I don't know if he will ever be able to maintain a job or relationship, but I hope so.

This is the reality of psychopaths. Many live normal lives, many are tragic and pitiful individuals needing specialised care are TLC. Very few are out of control monsters.

If this conversation is supposed to be about sharing experiences of real life, rather than jut throwing the label around at people we don't like, I think there would be less reference to eyes.

Ps don't love. They have fleeting, shallow emotions and they are in incapable of truly loving anyone.

When we talk about eyes going dead though, we don't mean the literal eye, do we? It's when the micro expressions around the eyes don't quite match up because the emotion is being feigned.

As neurotypical humans we are very skilled at reading these micro expressions eg to tell when someone is pretending to smile when they're really feeling sad. When a psychopath has "dead eyes" it's usually because the micro expressions don't match up, sometime aligned with focusing on the middle distance which can also be disturbing.

Bursarymum, I don't know. I don't think they love the way we do, no, but my friend's son/ son's friend tells me he does love his brothers and parents, but not all the time, and not always very much.

He certainly has loves in his life, his computer for one!

He is formally diagnosed as a severe sociopath, and the Psychiatrist explained that the psychopath label isn't given out any more, but this is the name given instead.

Oneflewoverthedodosnest - that is it exactly. If someone is referring to a facial expression, they need to clarify that. We are talking about real people and real experiences, not perpetuating fictional concepts.

Eyes do have expressions. Or they don't. They move: or don't move, sometimes for long periods of time. These factors alone can have a profound effect if you experience them

Im not sure bursarymum. I think that some can love up. It's just of a different nature than most of us would recognise.

It kind of begs questoins about the nature of love, too. A lot of people think love is a verb not a noun. It's a feeling too but feelings often aren't reliable. I reckon acting in a loving way + a strong ethical code (which some people with ASPD can have and which holds them back from the more anti-social behaviours) can be called a valid form of love.

the person with ASPD that I knew, she did the odd dead - eyes thing too. seems easier to call it that than saying 'they use inappropriate muscle and eye moments" :P though I take the point that it's blown up into an inappropriate myth

Well I guess I am talking about those Ps who go crashing through people's lives with no concern whatsoever for the pain and destruction that they cause by their manipulation of others, their deceptions and deliberate mind games to give them power. They may certainly say that they love someone, while simultaneously trying to pimp her out to their friends. I think that actions, not words prove whether or not someone loves you or not.

To have a diagnosis of S/P you have to have no empathy. I don't see how anyone can love when they don't have empathy. I think they have obsessions with their targets. But they don't love. People are there for what they can obtain.

well, the boy I know, he has a diagnosis, and he does show evidence of love, particularly his younger brothers, but at the same time, he has hurt them, and his explanation was he does love them, but not all the time.

He is clever, but not particularly manipulative. If he is angry, you know it, and if he threatens you he is likely to carry it out. ( Threats are against property - cars, windows, etc)

No subterfuge, or pretence. I have known him since he was a baby, so I know him pretty well.

Its a spectrum. I don't know where he is on it. He sometimes seems pretty extreme, although he does seem to be able to feel love of some sort.

Well I guess I am talking about those Ps who go crashing through people's lives with no concern whatsoever for the pain and destruction that they cause by their manipulation of others, their deceptions and deliberate mind games to give them power. They may certainly say that they love someone, while simultaneously trying to pimp her out to their friends. I think that actions, not words prove whether or not someone loves you or not.

This describes my ex perfectly. Although he didn't necessarily pimp me out; the mind games and manipulation was horrific. At the time I didn't realise he was a psychopath, as someone mentioned up thread they can be very charming, very disarming etc. He was one of those high flying successful types. It's only thereafter I did some reading around the issue and feel that he definitely fits that criteria. It's left me quite a shadow of my former self actually.

Well yes I agree it's a spectrum. How old is this boy though? In the UK you can't diagnose a child as sociopathic.

I agree with OneFlew. It is possible to convey emotion very strongly through the eyes and most NT people can tell when someone is truly happy, sad, feeling anxious, angry, etc just looking at the eyes and the subtle movements around them. I don't think it's the eyes themselves that change but the expressive lines and shapes immediately around the eyes. There absolutely is such a thing as a cold stare and a smile that is not genuine because it doesn't reach the eyes, and when people talk about a It's just a blank look devoid of any warmth or emotion, even if they are outwardly appearing to smile and act friendly.

He is 16. (Just) but has had the diagnosis for a while, although how long it has been official , I don't know. My second cousin is 21, or thereabouts, I don't know how long ago he got an official diagnosis.

This thing about not diagnosing children isn't always adhered to.

In a child it's usually called Reactive Attachment disorder I think.

I don't know what it was called earlier, if it was called anything else, his parents just use the term psychopath, but obviously not in public, and they are careful who hears. he uses the word psychopath himself, with jut as much sadness and pessimism as his parents do.

I agree, DressedUp - being able to read someone's expressions as well as body language is surely part of survival. And it's why first impressions are so important. In most photographs of people you can read expressions.

I agree bursary that some people with ASPD are totally loveless in any way. Appallingly destructive.

Most people can act appallingly in the wrong circumstances (eg civil wars or sometimes famines) when they are pushed so hard that their personal standards are broken, but people with ASPD seem to get there so very much easier

I think they can feel a form of obsessive, controlling type of "love" and maudling type of shallow/pity "love" that is mainly about their needs. But I guess a lot of people without these tendencies also don't do unconditional love or respect for another individual.

If someone is referring to a facial expression, they need to clarify that.

I couldn't disagree more. We are neurotypical people with typical social wiring. It is absolutely normal to use metaphorical language to describe common human experiences.

Perhaps you don't understand such expressions for reasons of your own. Perhaps you're among the nitpicking Mumsnetters who dislike non-clinical discussions of psychiatric conditions. Whatever your complaint, it would be ridiculous to demand that fellow posters deploy the English language in a manner acceptable to you.

Agree with your comments about love, Bursary, precisely.

what are you on about garlicK? if we are describing real life experiences, then describe real life experiences. If you are writing fiction, fine, write fiction, but if you are clearly writing fiction, don't expect anyone to take it as a description of real life, when it clearly isn't.

For god's sake. What do you understand by the expression "Steaming with anger", for just one example out of millions?

There are expressions, and there are unfounded claims, steaming with anger is an expression, this descriptions of eyes are unfounded claims, which negate whatever else that poster is saying or describing, because you know they are totally unreliable in this.

Don't you understand the difference.

Put it another way.

It is not true.

If a poster is writing statements that are not true, what does that do a) for their own credibility, or b) for the damage done to the understanding of this condition and its sufferers.

you may not understand the difference between an expression and a lie, but the difference is very significant to those people affected by this condition.