Is this fair (access)

[Marmaladedandelions]

STBXH is moving. He has a job and a house (though the sale hasn't gone through yet) about an hour and a half/two hours from where we live.

I don't want him having unsupervised contact with the children, who are eight years old and nearly a year old. There's also a second baby girl on the way.

Last week I went up there. He took the eight year old on a day out while I was in the building which I was fine with, and we all went out for something to eat.

I have suggested this on a weekly basis. He has said he wants twice a week. I think a 2 hour drive is too much twice a week. In all honesty I don't want him in my house so it would mean going somewhere mid-week and doing something after school which seems like a lot for the eight year old. Then, DH would either have to drive back or stay over in a hotel or similar and I'm worried about him putting pressure on me to let him stay.

So, I suppose what I'm asking is - is once a week fair? I am flexible when it's school holidays by the way.

Physical harm yes. Emotional stuff too - more so really.

If he wanted to take a child off somewhere - well those are one of the scenarios when I would be saying 'well okay, now we need to formalise this.' Do you see what I mean?

Children should have a relationship with both their parents if it is safe for them to do so.

The harm that they will suffer by losing touch with one half of their genetic identity must be balanced against the harm that they suffer by keeping up a relationship with someone who is abusive, who hurts them - either emotionally or physically.

In some cases, the harm that the relationship causes is so serious, that the courts will make an order that it should not continue, or should be indirect contact only.

The problem is I have no idea what it is that the has done and why you don't think he is safe to have unsupervised contact.

But I find it very, very hard to accept that you supervising contact is the solution. If he is too dangerous to be left alone with them, he is too dangerous to be left in this kind of situation with you - and them.

this seems like a fudged compromise which is potentially very dangerous.

If you have enough evidence why don't you stop contact? You can't sit with them in your eyesight for the next 18 years while he uses contact as a means to bully and control you. Stop facilitating any contact, stop the journeys and let him take you to court.

sorry, forgot to say - supervision is only ever a short term solution. It is used when children need to build up a relationship with a parent they haven't seen for a long time or when that parent is trying to prove that they have dealt with problems such as violence, abuse.

But there has to be an exit strategy. If direct contact has to always be supervised, there is a pretty strong argument for no direct contact. There has to be a plan to move it away from supervision and towards a more normal arrangement.

I used to supervise contact in a public place. After he became aggressive I stopped contact. It was eventually rearranged in contact centre through sols. He stopped going there I agreed to contact once a fortnight for 2 hours in soft play supervised by a relative.

In the end contact stopped. He eventually was going to take me to court CAFCASS did say no to contact till he had been assessed. He never went through court.

My Ex was never interested in my DS. He used it to get to me. It was about control. I wanted court in the end as I wanted to have the formal arrangement and when he gave up on that it would all be over.

spero some of it is pretty nasty, in all honesty. However, the children have mostly been kept out of it. They have witnessed some very nasty abuse and in one horrendous case I really don't want to go into too much as it just makes me sick and tearful thinking about it, were made to participate, but they haven't actually been hurt.

However, I know him, I know I can't guarantee their safety and wellbeing.

It is a black and white view that 'if he is too dangerous for X then he is for Y' and I don't think that's true. Can he be funny, charming and parent well at a ski centre or an ice rink or in a restaurant - yes. Behind closed doors can he be nasty and dangerous and a downright bully? Yes. In public, like most bullies, he wouldn't dare.

I suspect his interest in them/me will wane but at the moment it's very early days.

sorry, cross posts.

Cherry I suppose because I want to be able to say to the children - especially the girls, who won't remember him as DS will - that I didn't get in their way of knowing their dad. I don't want to hurt anybody, I honestly don't, and it would hurt people if I went down that route, including me.

Starlight that resonates with me.

Your DS will, if he is not already, begin to spend time in public places independent from you very soon; walking home from school, popping to the shop, going to the cinema with friends etc.

The problem is, that once the begins to do that, your ex has access to him. And unless you have recorded your fears and concerns, your DS dad will be considered equally responsible for him, and just as capable as you. You not be able to stop contact between them.

Imagine a phone call from your 11 yr old DS in three years time; "hi mum, dad picked me up from school, and I'm spending the weekend with him". If you go running to the authorities then, seeking protection for your DS from his dangerous father, not only will your facilitation of contact now undermine your position, but you will have given your ex 3 years in which to prove he is not a risk to your DCs.

It is a black and white view that 'if he is too dangerous for X then he is for Y' and I don't think that's true. Can he be funny, charming and parent well at a ski centre or an ice rink or in a restaurant - yes. Behind closed doors can he be nasty and dangerous and a downright bully? Yes. In public, like most bullies, he wouldn't dare.

Yes its black and white. Because that is what you have to be when it comes to protecting children. There are few shades of grey with abuse.

they were 'made to participate' in something that even now makes you feel sick and tearful to think about. That sounds pretty black and white to me. What on earth is the benefit of children having a relationship with this person.

how are they going to feel when they are grown up and realise that you colluded with him in this way?

That is possible but not hugely likely, in all honesty.

For one thing, he doesn't live locally, he isn't really interested in the children and I imagine in six to twelve months will only vaguely see them now and again, and plus by the time DS is old enough to be self sufficient he will be old enough to not be hugely at risk. I say not hugely - obviously there's some risk but honestly, DH likes weak helpless things, not kids who can pick up a phone.

but they haven't actually been hurt

how do you know this? Is this what you know, or just what you are desperately hoping?

The memory of it still hurts you - so I highly doubt the children are unscathed.

I am sorry if I sound harsh, but I think you are very much in danger of being complicit with abuse in this situation.

spero maybe, but it is early days - you are in all probability correct but for now I've got him out, I have ensured they don't see him unsupervised, they are safe.

There's a LOT of stuff to get my head around and as I say I am frightened to lose my ace card - rightly or wrongly. Never thought I'd go for blackmail but if that's what it takes to keep us safe.

But if he is that bad isn't it your job to get in the way of them knowing him. This relationship with a father at all costs - well sorry, I don't agree with it. He sounds dangerous. I would want you to protect me from him if you were my mother. And as an aside, he moved yet you drive 2 hours to him while you are pregnant. You need to stop that now surely. Why is that your job?

I meant physically hurt spero, sadly I agree my son has been hurt, not so much my daughters as they are so young/not born, but yes DS has been hurt and I was complicit in this and it isn't harsh to point it out. I will spend the rest of my life trying to undo that hurt.

True cherry I suppose because it keeps him away from my town, my home?

I suppose because I want to be able to say to the children - especially the girls, who won't remember him as DS will - that I didn't get in their way of knowing their dad. I don't want to hurt anybody

And this is why you are not the right person to supervise contact.

You have experienced extreme abuse - and have normalised behaviour that is abusive for a long time.

You will not be able to make an objective judgement as to whether behaviour is abusive.

You'll be conflicted between protecting them from abuse and stopping all contact - because you want your girls to have the chance to know their dad.

So do you think I should ban ALL contact? It just seems so extreme and I know he is extreme. It's just he's not all terrible, awful either. He suffered too in his way.

Well no he must not be in your home - but if it was up to him to make that journey twice a week I should think he wouldn't bother.

Sorry if I am harsh, but you sound like you are still being controlled by him. You don't sound angry with him at all, just completely accepting of what he is and what he has done.

What support are you getting. And have you reported his previous behaviour to anyone?

Ok, I accept I don't really know what is going on here.

But this is what I do know. Children absolutely deserve to be protected from abusive adults, whether or not those adults are their parents. They are utterly vulnerable and entirely dependent on other adults to keep them safe.

Playing these types of games with abusive men can be really dangerous. Either he is a fit and proper person to have a normal relationship with the children - or he is not. I really don't see any shades of grey in that kind of situation.

I hope you manage to sort something out that keeps you all safe.

I think that the level of abuse you describe, the words you use and the description of the deliberate direct involvement of the DCs in an act that has left you traumatised needs to be investigated and an independent assessment made of the risk to your DCs.

While it is not the case that all men who abuse their spouses are considered a danger to their DCs, what you have described is a deliberate coercion, bullying or forcing of a child to engage in an abusive act (against you?). That could be considered a criminal act and your DCs deserve justice.

No, I don't think anyone's being harsh at all. I appreciate the support.

You're probably right - I don't think I'm exactly being controlled by him but perhaps that's just because compared to how things were, it seems so much less. I'm standing up to him in a way I never thought I could.

I haven't reported his behaviour - it's just a big massive can of worms.

spero you have really made me think so thank you. I honestly thought I was keeping them safe by saying 'no unsupervised contact'. The problem is a lot of stuff is based on what I know factually about DH and what I have gleaned from spending too many years married to him. For example, DH does not take no for an answer, hence I am expecting Dc3. Do I then let two little girls into his home unsupervised?

I have to stress here I DON'T actually think he would harm his daughters like that - but can I absolutely swear to it? No. Do you see my position? It's based on conjecture and assumption but on something this important ...

Foodlover it was more my fault, that one, it really was. And I'm so very ashamed of it but I at least bear equal blame for it.

You sound like you've been abused op, and it sounds like this abuse is continuing. You think you're doing the right thing by supervising contact without realising that down the line if ex kicks off you'll be in a far worse position as you've allowed contact now. If it does eventually go through the courts how will you prove he's a danger to you and your children when you've gotten free of him but still allowed contact with both you and them? Jeremy Kyle springs to mind when he shouts 'if he's such a violent bully why do you ever leave your kids anywhere near him' and whilst I usually think it's because he's got her right where he wants her please see that you are being manipulated here. Even if it's by the beliefs ex himself has put in your head. You aren't a shit parent because he abused you, it's not your fault they witnessed that and a court will not blame you!

Thanks. I do see what you mean. I just feel so awful to be taking their dad away completely. Do you think there is any room for negotiation with this? Once a fortnight, month?

This is why you need professional support, OP.

You have described a violent rapist, who controlled and manipulated you, and yet you believe you have the skills and strength to protect your DDs from him. For how long? Throughout their lives? What about grandchildren?
What will you do when your DDs turn 13/14 and want to find their dad on social media? Will you tell them that your youngest daughter is the product of his rape?
She may not believe you, she may defend her dad and accuse you of lying; particularly if you have spent years maintaining contact between them -what kind of message does that send?