But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I agree millii mine are older too. But I think I had them late because I had to come to terms with my self esteem first. I also find it interesting to see the support my dc get from their dad. The little good luck texts, the odd £20 on their way out, etc. I never had that.

Totally agree with the view that having your own children is like a huge wake up call. It gives you a reason to become a better person and also makes you realise how wrong your parents were. My mother was completely obsessed with appearances and what people thought. In fact I can confidently say that to this day that is her driving force and main priority.

It was like the lights are on but nobody's at home

Oh I can identify with that sleepytrain. "What will people think" and usually over the most inconsequential tings but everything was always for show. My clothes, my haircuts, her clothes, the overall impression of what she wanted people to think. I even had a pony.

She always has a little dig about my children not having enough, not having good enough clothes, not making the best of themselves, etc.. I said once when she was visiting that dd was so beautiful and such a lovely little girl and in front of dd she turned round and said "not as beautiful as you were" and I was the child who was too plain to be allowed to wear pink. My house isn't good enough or smart enough, etc., she would expect me and DH to live better and do more glamorous things.

My mother is beautiful, groomed, a size 8, dainty, beautifully dressed and beautifully mannered. She is a party person, would have been an "it" girl a few generations later; was actually a model, etc. She has never though maintained lasting relationships (step father has been with her a long time but that's because of the money) but she has been married three times, lost countless friends, had endless arguments and fall outs with people. When I was a teenager she was always the dream person, other people in the village would aspire to be like, comment about what a wonderful mother I had, make comments that I "was an odd girl" based on what she told them I think. I see some of those people occasionally now when I visit and we go for a walk and stop and stay hello and make complimentary remarks and I think the penny has dropped but nobody actually says so.

I've brought my children up to believe they are what they are and what they are is very very valuable and if anybody else doesn't like it, it's that person's problem not theirs.

For the avoidance of doubt, my children have everything. They've just never been Disney Florida or owned a pony - but owning a pony is a bit tricky in London. That's not meant as a braggy comment by the way - just to illustrate the extent to which I'm not good enough and haven't given them enough.

Beaufort

Your mother comes across as being narcissistic in terms of personality; that behaviour you describe is typical of such disordered of thinking people.
It is not your fault that your mother is like this, you did not make her that way (her own parents did that lot of damage to her; btw what if anything do you know about her own childhood?).

Do read "Will I ever be good enough" by Karyl McBride.

Its not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist.

Was not surprised either to read that she had also been married more than once. Such women always but always need an enabler to help them. Narcissistic women cannot do relationships at all and the man is either narcissistic themselves or long gone. A man who stands up to his wife will not be tolerated for long, or will not find his life tolerable for long, and will either leave or be kicked out. Narcissists simply don’t have healthy and functioning relationships, and so there is either no relationship, or a dysfunctional and enabling one. Your stepfather enabled her.

Your stepfather's comments towards you were absolutely awful and I would describe those as being emotionally abusive. Words can have the power to hurt and you still remember that being said to you.

I would stay well away from your mother (I use that term advisedly because she is really not) with a view to ultimately going no contact with her; if she is too difficult/toxic for you to deal with its the same deal for your daughter as well. Your mother is still a narcissist and will get back at your child given any opportunity.

beaufortbelle yep sounds a lot like mine. The thing that used to get me was that she was upset because I wasn't wearing something that looked good, I looked unhappy, I was overweight, I didn't make THEM look good basically. And my mother was very unhappy about that do I felt guilty for upsetting everyone and making them unhappy. One day they told me that I smelt bad and they were really cross and upset with me. I felt so humiliated and ashamed. They said it was my fault. So sorry about your experience too. My mum is always dressed to perfection and its her main priority always. If I have an occasion that I am planning eg a christening ALL she can talk about is what she is wearing, what SHE looks like. Never mind I am pulling my hair out trying to organise the flipping thing!!

The thing is Atilla my grandparents were wonderful. They are the people I spent a lot of my childhood with and I think are the reason why I was not psychologically damaged.

Their mistake was perhaps idolising my mother and spoiling her. She was very very spoilt by them all of her life and although I think they knew her shortcomings it didn't stop them idolising her. She was a twin btw - the other twin died at birth and my grandma couldn't have any more children.

My mother once told me that she had never wanted children and having me as a child made her quite certain she didn't want another one.

I think my mother always thought I would step into my grandparents' place of idolosing her and spoiling her when they died. I didn't. I visit, we have a relationship that looks OK on the surface; I will make sure she is looked after if she is on her own at some stage. She is 79 btw. My stepfather was diagnosed with prostate cancer in the autumn - not too advanced and all OK. I telephoned every day, I was told there was no need to go down, it was all dramatized and when I tried to reason I was screamed at and told I was uncaring and hadn't done enough and phoning was the very least I should have been doing and should have done a lot more. I had done what she had asked me to. At the time my son had had an accident and I had had to go and be with him in hospital (not serious, all well).

Oh yes sleepytrain the clothes and the appearance. My mother came with me to chose my wedding dress. It was a lovely day. She then saw a beautiful dress and coat and tried it on. It did look gorgeous. I bought it for her. My dress was £750 (ok, ok, there were accessories too); her outfit was £795. Says it all really. That was 25 years ago to put it in perspective.

Hello to all, and welcome beaufort

I'm away from home for a few days visiting my son and had coffee with an old friend this morning. Told her that I'm NC with mum at the moment and gave a brief background: she could not have been more supportive. It was very validating.

More weirdness with toxic mum: it was my sisters birthday on Thursday. She is not NC with mum but hasn't spoken to her since I sent mum my NC email. Mum didn't send her a card, nothing, no phone call or text.

I can't begin to understand her motivations - but it certainly cements my instinct to continue with NC.

My sister said she felt a mixture of relief and sadness, as really she wants NC too, and in fact she's been LC for a long time. It would have been nice for it to be her decision though, rather than mum just going dark.

beaufort belle I totally get the thing about being idolised by the parents. I think my mum was spoilt but not only that she came from an upbringing where they believed that women need to be looked after, so she has followed that and literally never taken responsibility for her own life. My father controls her and she openly admits that she puts him first before her children. One minute she 'loves me dearly' to the point of being theatrical, and the next I am an 'ungrateful bitch'. I never really know what side I am going to get.
pocketsaviour that's lovely that you found support in a good friend. These things make you realise what healthy human interactions should be like. It defies belief about your mother ignoring birthdays. I just can't comprehend it

My mother once told me that she had never wanted children and having me as a child made her quite certain she didn't want another one beaufort 20 years ago (i was in my late 20s) I told my mum that I was pregnant with their first GC and all she could say was 'why do you want to waste your life having children? If I had my time again I wouldn't have any children.' It is in the same vein as your mum said and quiet frankly is about the worst thing any parent could say to their child.

Basically I wish I never had you.

To this day I still remember it Looking back things were never the same after that although I didn't want to accept that and again looking back things were not good during my childhood. At the time I didn't understand. I can not forgive her for saying what she said.

And I didn't invite anyone to my wedding as I couldn't deal with my mum criticizing the dress, the choice of venue and meal.

Milllli Me and my sisters went to boarding school so (on the plus side!!) we were only home for the holidays. When I left school and my sisters were still at the boarding school and it was just mum and me (dad worked away) she would not talk for days. I had no idea what I had done but the atmosphere was awful.

I remember her laughing at me in M & S. I had lost a fair bit of weight and had gone from a 16 to a 12. As she saw me picking up a size 12 she was laughing saying 'you're not a size 12 ha ha'. She was the only person who hadn't commented on my weight loss. The loss should have been more noticeable for her as it was months in between visits. That Xmas she bought me some pjs (size 20/22!!)

Sorry I have waffled on a bit but I have had a few glasses and it make me think about it more.

My toxix mother told Dbro she wished she had never had him. this was during a row when he was a teen. He has never let her forget it.

Beaufort

re your comment:-
"Their mistake was perhaps idolising my mother and spoiling her. She was very very spoilt by them all of her life and although I think they knew her shortcomings it didn't stop them idolising her".

Yep, that's it, amongst other factors as well.

That was the mistake my MILs parents made with their daughter as well; she was very much a happy arrival around a decade after the birth of their first child. This second child was also put on a pedestal and idolised particularly by her father who called her often "a good girl" and she played up to that image. That is also how she learnt to be manipulative. Her elder sibling (who is much nicer and is not narcissistic at all) was regarded by her father in particular as a disappointment to him. Its a legacy that has remained with this particular individual her whole life; her lack of confidence in her own abilities is still very much present within her.

Re the "I wish I'd never had you" comments.

One dinner time think my sister must-have been about 7 or 8, she was doing something that annoyed my dad - maybe singing a little song or perhaps she knocked her drink over. He shouted at her "I never wanted you, you were a bloody accident anyway! I told your mum to have an abortion!"

Then he stomped out the house (probably went to bang one if his OWs)

My mum then told my sister that it was okay, because she wasn't really am accident, my mum had "played a trick on daddy to get pregnant, tee hee, but you mustn't ever tell him" - what would these days be termed sperm-jacking!

(I haven't discussed this as an adult with my sister as I don't know if she remembers it and I don't want to remind her if she doesnt)

Seems to be a very common thing to say. Possibly just the go-to "most hurtful thing I can think of" for abusive parents

So good not to feel alone. I haven't of course ever betrayed her in real life and discussed it. DH knows some of it, but not all. I still feel awed that it was my own daughter, aged 11 who got it. All my friends thought my mother was soooo nice and kind and exciting. If I let slip anything as a teen they never believed me because they saw a different woman. I left home for uni at 18 (til of course not to turn into a drop out hippy) and never lived there again except for the odd holiday. When I took a first she just said "I'd me more impressed if you had a job".

I'd still like to make her proud. I haven't done so badly but there is never any affirmation.

I am so sad others have been told similar things. I found the whole having babies business very hard, especially as by the 90s the gp, midwives, etc actually asked if they were planned and if you wanted them and it seemed it would be easier to abort on a whim than fir a planned and wanted pg to be celebrated. And yes of course my mother said "I don't know what you want a baby for, it will ruin your life".

I had PND after my son was born. I loved him so much and couldn't understand how a mother could be so hurtful to a child she loved and realised I hadn't been. Not in the conventional sense anyway.

Thank you all for listening. I'm sorry to have waffled on and hope one day to be more supportive to some of you when my story's told and I can give back something useful and better informed.

Wow, just reading through these pages is amazing, thank you all so much for sharing as so much resonates with me, I really feel the need for a [lightbulb] smiley. I am so concerned that whatever sh*t I went through with my self centred, emotionally abusive but it wasn't her fault of course mother hasn't passed down to my excellent and fabulous DCs. I can identify with not being good enough, in my case I was the sad child no one wanted to play with and she liked it like that.

I cannot believe, looking back, that she chose to perpetuate that definition of me rather than do anything about it. Even through high school (and once at uni FFS) she was known to take people aside and tell them that she was so glad that they were being polite enough to pretend to be friends with me, because I was a very unpopular person and had never really had any friends. I'm not kidding, she actually did that, leaving my 'friends' a bit baffled and me a bit tainted.

By the way, I am not an unlikeable person according to my now-friends, nice looking, decent career, good sense of humour, etc, not a stealth brag just reality check! I did move countries, perhaps in retrospect this was to get away from her but unfortunately to achieve that I married an 'unsuitable' man. So, now I'm married to an emotionally abusive man who I realise has many of my mother's 'attributes'. Lightbulb! I'm trying to divorce him but the suicide threats, the 'poor me' attitude has taken me right back. He's presenting himself as such a fragile and sensitive man that I will 'break' him if I continue to stand up for my rights not to be abused. I'm at a crossroads now and need to firm my resolve!

Staffie so sorry for you, but I thought your comment to your mum was a great bit of insight and sadly a but hilarious to see her reaction.

beaufort you're not waffling. Not at all. The Stately Homes thread is for talking as much as you want

Beaufort I too have that feeling of wanting affirmation. I think the general wisdom says you need to find it within yourself but I still can't get my head around that. Sorry you had PND, I had a tough time after the birth of my first ('accidental' pregnancy even though we were married, house etc but I was not yet fully qualified in my profession, DC made it a struggle but I did get there in the end) my parents were only a 20 minute drive away but made it clear that they weren't going to help or babysit (although they did help us a bit financially). I couldn't imagine if my DD had a baby not being totally involved! She's 20 with no plans to BTW but she and I are very close. My parents felt it was a mistake and I should have prioritised my career. Well I've got a career sort-of but in my life I'm proudest of my DCs, careers or not!

Staffie spot on re: waiting for approval. It wont ever come for so many of us! Such a waste.

I get where you are coming from that'snotmynane. I'll be able to respond and support in time I think but at the moment feel a bit like a spectator absorbing my world that for many years I thought was all my fault. Processing a lot of this properly for the first time and it's cathartic.

I know in my heart this is something I'll never be able to raise with my mother to understand why she did it. I don't think she's even aware of the hurt and to try to make her so would cause me more pain I think.

For the person upthread who said my DD must be amazing, yes she is actually. I tell her every day and for a quiet person she has an inner confidence. She is not though as resilient as me and I think if she had been me my mother might have wrought irreversible damage to her mental health.

Beaufort

They know that you are hurt but they do not feel your hurt. I cannot
overemphasise enough the narcissist's complete lack of empathy here. They are also masters of, "come closer so I can hurt you again".

From lightshouse:-

"They know what wrong is, and they may do it, but they cannot accept the concept of being a person who does anything wrong, because that means they're not superior and perfect. So narcissists vehemently push away the information that they've done something hurtful. They do know what a hurtful act is, and yet they have to deny that they did it.

Narcissists use a number of different ways to deny their hurtful actions (and to try making you deny it along with them so you'll stop complaining). Blaming others, gaslighting, labeling someone who complains about them cruel, lying, making excuses and playing the martyr are a narcissist's typical responses. Whatever it takes to stop all recognition (by them and you) of the fact that they were inconsiderate can be expected.

So yes, narcissists are aware that they've hurt your feelings and that it's wrong, but they just cannot accept that knowledge. They deny it to prevent narcissistic injury, and desperately want you to deny it as well. And usually, they deny it so quickly and so habitually that it doesn't even register in their consciousness before the excuses and protests are given out.

Typically, when told they've hurt your feelings, a narcissist's denial takes the forms of insisting you're not hurt, or that you shouldn't be hurt, that you're wrong to be hurt, that they didn't hurt you, that you're too easily hurt, and that you shouldn't complain because they're hurt worse".