But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Yes to wanting to feel loved and approved of. Oh yes.

I dread when my father dies. Half dread (have to get through the funeral, it will be important to say goodbye); half wonder if it will be a relief and set me free. Why do I let this distant and unpleasant-to-me man have such power

milllli my story is complicated ... involving adoption, biological parents, death, NC, distant contact and a shit load of pain and of therapy. Mostly I can cope, sometimes it's raw.

When I was nine years old, I walked into the kitchen one morning. It was a Sunday and I was up early, looking forward to going to see my Auntie later on. My Dad was standing at the sink and my Mum was standing next to him, pulling at his arm. I heard her say “ We can’t go on pretending nothing’s wrong.” and then he pushed her away. She gestured me to get out and so I did. Later that day I asked her what she had meant by what she said and she denied she had ever said it. That’s when I started bed wetting and nail biting. The former didn’t last too long, but the nail biting went on for years. Nobody mentioned the bedwetting. I just made my bed in the mornings and left it to dry, but I was regularly beaten for the nail biting for about the next three years.

By this stage my parents had not shared a bedroom for about four years. They had never shared a bed. In fact, when we went on holiday, I had to share with my Dad in the double bed, while my Mum had the single bed to herself.

I don’t know what was worse, hearing something that made it obvious that their marriage was in trouble, or the fact that my Mum would lie so blatantly, making me doubt what I had heard.

I’m getting flashbacks again today - very uncomfortable. Reading this thread is the first time I have felt that I am not alone.

Please

meerka sounds so hard. I had therapy as well. Helped me to stand up to them. They didn't like that.

Hello there, I am sorry for barging in like this. When I saw the title of this thread, it completely describes my parents in so many ways.
Tonight I have had another horrible conversation with my mother. It particularly hurts because I have just spent a 'nice' few days with my parents and 1 year old ds.
She called to say that my father has been extremely unwell, and did I get her message? He has had a high temperature, vomiting, up all night, shivering, shaking etc. Lots of dramatics and 'end of the world, everything is terrible' it's been so so hard and she is so tired etc. However when I probed further he is actually on the mend and has been given medication that is helping and he should be fine. But you wouldn't think so by the initial description.
I sound so uncaring don't I. The problem is my father is a controlling aggressive bully who dislikes me so it's hard to feel warm towards him.

She had been drinking and then she went on to call my son by his wrong name, which she does occasionally and it really upsets me. So I went quiet, and she said what is the matter and I said that I wish she wouldn't call my son by his wrong name. But not to worry, it doesn't matter and lets forget about it.
So, then you would think I had done something really bad because it all became about her, how I had really upset her, how she didn't need this. Then she managed to pluck an incorrect example out of the hat, in typical fashion, about how I was 'always criticising her' which is rubbish. In fact I spent all my time treading on eggshells terrified of 'upsetting' her AGAIN!
I asked her to stop swearing, and that caused further 'hurt and upset'

It makes me feel so depressed and upset, it just makes my withdraw and freeze. Already I just want to cancel my plans for tomorrow as she has this incredible knack of making me hate myself and feel ashamed and guilty.

I told her I had an interview and was offered a job today, which is good news, but she sounded all down about it saying 'it's a lot for a human being to take on are you going to be ok, it's really bad that you have to manage on your own as a single parent, please don't loose the house you have to make sure that you don't' (my ex is abusive). Jeez thanks mum I feel so empowered - this is meant to be good news.

The guilt!! I feel so guilty it's all my fault. I am a bitch (as my mother would say). Its the ups and downs I find hard too. Nice one day and turning on me the next

So sorry for the essay here. Big hugs to all that are going through hard stuff too. x

Sleepytrain I am sure a lot of us on this thread can sympathise completely with your experience. You could be describing my DM. Drama and drinking followed by blaming me for me being difficult or hard hearted towards her if I don't agree with her completely and toe the line and then finally, the personal insults. She projects a lot of her stuff onto me and it sounds like your DM does the same.

It's really hurtful.

It isn't your fault though.

If you haven't already, have a look at the Daughters of narcissistic mothers and Out of the FOG websites - everything became a lot clearer to me after I had read through some of the information on there.

Congratulations on your new job! I am sure you will be brilliant and I hope that you have something planned to celebrate.

Hope you are ok x

Thank you for your reply Hippymama, it's so hard isn't it. I hate the way they try and make me feel guilty. The confusion! One minute they are ok, then they are not. One minute bigging me up (actually this is becoming increasingly rare) then they are putting me down. Sometimes they can be unbelievably cruel, but then promote themselves as nice caring people.
It's always ME with the problem.

But it's the WAY they put me down, saying that I upset them and that I am being rude and selfish. No matter how polite I am and how I try to avoid that with all my heart.
That really does get to me and sticks the knife in where it hurts.

So sorry to hear about your DM too, and thanks for recommending those sites I will have a good read x

sleepy welcome and congrats on the job offer!

I know exactly what you mean with the response to any news like this. When I told my mum I had found a great house away from my horrible ex, she said "how far away is it from work?" Erm about 30 mins, why? "Oh no! You'll have such a longer commute, I don't think you'll be able to cope!" Oh okay, I'll just cancel the divorce proceedings, god forbid I should spend an extra 10 minutes a day in the car.

Spoke to her about how I was starting a business and hoped to eventually give up my employed job and concentrate on it full time. "But when it fails, how will you explain the gap on your CV?"

THANKS FOR THE VOTE OF CONFIDENCE, BITCH.

NC for three months now and feeling better every day!

And then she gets upset because I am not going to her/confiding in her so that brings on even more guilt. I find myself trying to be what she wants to keep her happy. But the truth is I am trying to protect myself from getting stung. And the sting can happen at any time quite often it's by surprise.

Thanks pocketsaviour that sounds just like my experience too! Seriously, good for you starting up a business i am trying to start up my own business too and you would think I had grown horns by the reaction from them. I just can't get my head around this need to put others down. Particularly as you are supposed to love and care for them.
My parents make me feel so depressed and when this kind of thing happens I feel like I am 12 again. Very down.
I dream of going NC sometimes, so pleased you are feeling better for it x

sleepy it's one of the traits of a narc - gaslighting and manipulating you into a position where you think you are the one to blame or being unreasonable, although the situation / drama is of their own creation and actually nothing to do with you... They can then play the victim, therefore drawing more attention to themselves.

When they say you are being rude and selfish, what they actually mean is that you are not doing exactly what they want you to do. They intend to stick the knife in where they know it hurts you too as it means the guilt will make you easier to manipulate.

It is really hard and really confusing... It gets better though, once you start to understand it a bit more and realise that it actually isn't you, it's them.

There is a lot of support on this thread to help - I have found it really helpful and hope you do too. x

sleepy

she gets upset because I am not going to her/confiding in her

^ this... But then when you confide them, the details of whatever the situation are are always brought up at a later date as an example of when you have been in need and they have helped you, or as an example of how ungrateful and hard you are even though they continue to support you emotionally...

hippymama thank you x I guess knowledge is the way forward because they will never change. One thing that I can't get my head around is the narcissistic thing - I question whether my mother is one because she has crippling insecurity and low self esteem but on the other hand is very self absorbed. Aren't narcs suppossed to think that they are the best thing since sliced bread?

Absolutely true on your last point. It's like when you have a grievance about something they have just said/done - but that gets brushed aside and rubbished, and the list of 'kind' things they have done gets reeled off. So therefore we must be completely selfish and ungrateful.

A lot of narcs actually don't think they are the best thing since sliced bread, deep down and underneath it all... Their narc behaviour has developed as a coping strategy for their insecurity and low self esteem.

My DM has low self esteem and had a traumatic childhood (so I hear) but is always bigging herself up any time she can over other people, she either is more skilled, better at her job, thinner, looks younger than other women her age etc... She has to constantly compare herself to other people and come out better.

I mean, the last example of that was my father - he had just been telling me how appauling and rude I am - when I objected to this statement he referred back to a time when he went out of his way to give me a lift to university...15 years ago! I mean, where do you even start with that!

Yes that's interesting - my mother is constantly comparing. Like everything is some kind of competition. So shallow. And always hungry for compliments.

Hippy my mother never thought I was ever thin enough, groomed enough and always thought I ate too much. She controlled my food intake and I always went very hungry. She did it to keep me thin and she was always so pleased when I was skinny. She was so critical of me as was my father. They were emotionally cruel and treated everyone else so much nicer than they did me. I was an only child. If I ever said how I felt I was told not to be so silly and that I was odd or selfish. You grow up believing it don't you. I don't think I will ever understand why they wanted to hurt their child and say cruel things to her and not cherish and cuddle and love her, ( I was never ever cuddled as a child, never ever (did I say that already haha). Therapy made me remember that. To me it was normal to be treated this way and not cherished, cuddled or praised etc.
Sleepy they do seem to come up with many counter statements to anything you can bring up.

Please our stories are very similar. for you for going through it. I'll be back on when I've got a bit more time [confused.

millli so sorry you had that experience. That rings a bell with me too. I was often berated for being overweight and also looking unhappy. I was told there was something very wrong with me because I looked so unhappy. They were often cross with me for this. The main worry for her was what people thought. She is extremely worried about what people think, in fact that comes first before everything. I know this probably sounds really depressing (sorry) but when I was 10/12 years old I really wanted to kill myself. In fact it took over my thoughts a lot.

millli you mentioned therapy, did you find that worked for you? I've been trying to look into it myself but it's a bit of a minefield and don't know what's best!

sleepy don't worry about if she's a narcissist or not. There's an enormous amount of armchair diagnosis and actually it's often not very helpful. One of the few real uses a diagnosis has in practise is to determine if the person is capable of change, -if- they should want to (if).

"insecure, selfish, self-obssessed guilt-tripper" is a perfectly eloquent way of describing a really hard-to-deal-with mother.

If you could talk to her openly and really communicate with her about emotional stuff then maybe you could work it out. But only you know if she could respond to that.

If not, the best thing you can do is to step back inside a bit from her. She comes out with a heart-cutting sting when you least expect it. Maybe the best way to deal with her is to put up some guards all the time. To consciously not relax and trust her so much because you know that she's going to do the scorpion tail-stab at some point. You can still love her without being so open to her. When she complains, then field it with a neutral comment "I'm sorry that it seems like that" or something like that. Use a mental trick to see her as an awkward client or customer. She's your mother but you do have to find ways of making it bearable to be around her.

Alternatively gently cut down contact a bit - ring her less, see her a bit less. It won't help the sting when it comes though, so I think that developing mental defenses is probably more effective.

regarding therapy, it can be very difficult yes. Do you have the resources to fund it privately? if so, then look at the BACP site, it's one of the professional bodies for counsellors and therapists. Therapists probably have more training. Do look for someone experienced though and don't be afraid to try a couple out until you find someone you feel you can talk to. The click is very important.

Some therapists do a sliding scale of fees. If that isnt on the cards, then ask your doctor for referral to counselling but it's usually only 6 sessions. still, that is something.

Thank you meerka that's really useful
I think the biggest thing that tortures me the most is trying to decide whether it is my fault or not. I know there are some things I could have done differently, (for example I should have called my mother back sooner) but the backlash I get for that (upset, hurt tones, subtle but not enough to mention anything but I KNOW what she is trying to do. even though I apologise profusely) if I do seem on guard with her, the implication is that I am being uncaring. There is always a sense of must try harder.

Sleepy Yes - toxic people have long memories when it suits them - shame that amazing capacity for memory doesn't extend to the the stuff that they did that upset other people!

I also have memories from when I was very young of being very sad all the time and knowing that I was different from other children because I was so sad all the time. I also knew that I would also be sad continually until I was old enough to move out and take charge of my own life... I wish I could give that poor little sad girl a cuddle... I was so isolated and depressed and because of my DPs standing in the community, no-one could have done anything about it even if they would have noticed - which I am sure some people did.

Milli Very similar to my experience too... My DM was and still is, obsessed with being fat. When I was about 6 or 7 she made me stand in front of a load of her friends (she was drunk at the time - this is a fact incidentally, not an excise or justification for her) and said "look at how fat she is? I only bought her that nightie 6 months ago and now it is bursting at the seams..." I can still remember the shame now and my burning face and eyes as I held back the tears and the urge to run upstairs past them all and hide in my room. If I had thought I was disgusting before that (I did) that really confirmed it for me and sparked an eating disorder in adulthood which saw my BMI fall to below 18 for a long while...

No doubt she would feel awful about this if she actually knew - as far as her capacity for feeling bad goes (she does know on some level I am sure) but seeing as it has never been discussed outright it is just glossed over and she still to this day tells me I am too fat - even when I was pregnant I was called names and told I was putting on too much weight.

I would like to say that I have developed a thicker skin over the years and I have to an extent but it still picks at the wound every time there is a comment made.

It's funny what you say about cuddles too as I don't remember getting cuddled when I was a small child... For a long time I just assumed I had and didn't remember but now I am sure that the only people who cuddled me were DGPs...

The lack of physical contact from affection (there was contact from violence!) made me feel and be very awkward as a young adult when it came to hugging friends and boyfriends and kissing etc - I would just freeze if anyone tried to touch me as I wasn't really sure what to do and what the appropriate response was! I was seen as a very cold fish for a long time as I had to learn all of those social skills at such an odd age and when everyone else was relatively confident in themselves and at least knew how and when to hug someone back or put their arm around another person!

It is hard but things do get easier, although there are frequently bumps in the road that I wasn't expecting... This week I have needed some background on my medical history and was advised to 'ask your DM' for the info... That gave me a little twinge of hurt because I know that my DPs either won't remember as they were probably drunk at the time, or that I can't 100% rely on what they tell me as it is either likely to be mis-remembered due to the fogging effects of time and gin, or embellished for dramatic effect.

Sorry - that turned into a bit of an essay! Hope everyone is ok this morning. x