But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

[BeaufortBelle]

staffie - no, I really didn't mean for your to feel gutted. It was in a good way - like lancing the boil and letting out the poison. Your post was lovely.

The last few days have been very moving for me. A sort of a awakening that actually there was something wrong and it wasn't me and it has helped sweep away decades of self doubt.

Having read earlier parts of these threads though, although all this has affected me I do feel a bit of a fraud to be here.

I was never hit, never hungry, never frightened, never suffered anything sexual, never cold, never went without. In fact I had everything - so much more than most people in material terms. I think that's the bit I find hard really - I didn't really have anything to complain about; I had most of what everyone else wanted. But something so vast was missing.

[Meerka]

"man shall not live by bread alone".

Remember those monkeys who were brought up with all the material things to live but no one to cuddle them, to hold them? They were never able to be 'normal'; never able to recover.

that's only monkeys.

Steady, straightforward emotional warmth and love without game-playing is as essential as bread. Without it, people grow up hurt. It's the brave ones who face that pain and who are determined to change the pattern.

Even then the fact is that some will succeed, but others will only partially succeed in being good parents to their own children. But the effort has to be made. It has to be.

I'm determined not to turn into my biol. mother.

[Meerka]

I am afraid that some of her illness was biological and it has passed to me. I am getting all the help I can to curb that and to be a good-enough mother. Unfortunately I can't be always there for them as I struggle physically and get grumpy when I'm overtired, which is often. They need consistent present-ness. At least their father is steady, loving, and very much a hands-on father.

Doing all I can. Taking all the advice I can, too, and putting it into practise as much as I can. Also remembering my adoptive mother and how much she loved me; whatever the biological inheritance, her love flowed into me and mine can to the children as much as ever I can give.

Sorry, in some ways you can reach an acceptance of your flaws but they still remain flaws. I wish I was stronger. But as long as it's enough for them, that will do.

[Theymakemefeellikeshit]

Beaufort I understand what you say. I am in a similar situation to you in that I feel that I have not gone through any where near as much as what others have. Nothing sexual and from what I can remember there was a lot of smacking but as I am in my 40s I grew up in a time when smacking was ok.

But as you say But something so vast was missing

I remember years ago attending staff training on sexual harassment training. The point they kept emphasizing was that you had to be careful what you did or say as what might be acceptable to one person was not acceptable to another. Same applies here in that we are all different so things affect us in different ways. If what we have been through is/has affected us then it is important.

Meerka your determination will see you through.

Just been sat at the dining table having a lovely chat with my DD. Was never able to and still couldn't now do that with my parents

[BeaufortBelle]

My heart goes out to you meerka. With love.

[Theymakemefeellikeshit]

Sorry of it has already been mentioned Meerka but how old are your DC. Are they old enough to have things explained to them (not necessarily all of it) so it will help them understand

Also remembering my adoptive mother and how much she loved me; whatever the biological inheritance, her love flowed into me and mine can to the children as much as ever I can give. This is the nurture part. It's not all about nature.

My DD is 20 now and I am so worried about not making her feel like shit that I am scared that I won't give my DS the praise he deserves. As I said before my mum constantly rubbed my nose in it. She is old enough for me to explain what happened when I was younger (bearing in mind that she now realizes that grandma is not all there) and that praising DS is by no means a criticism of her.

I am proud of her and love her to bits

[Meerka]

they are 7 and 1 ... I try t explain to the older one a bit, but have been told there's a danger of burdening him with too much so I try to keep it simple and light. (I looked for professional child-rearing advice, some people are natural mothers and have a feel for little ones but I'm not one, it seemed best to get advice!)

I'm not going to cover everything up though, I don't think that does them any favours at all. Hidden secrets are more destructive and worst of all leave them unguarded from family game-playing.

It just feels raw sometimes. I understand much more about how people tick than can actually fully put into practise, if you see what I mean. Bit of a gap between understanding and performance. I'll keep plugging on.

Thank you for your kind words

[NordicInKent]

Good evening all, may I join in please? I don't know where to start so but I just need to vent a bit. I've been NC with my mother and her husband since last August. They live in another country (my home country) and I visit every summer with my DC's. I use to find them hard work in so many ways and even had half admitted to myself that I'd be happier for not have to spend time with them. However, I still didn't quite understand why they behaved the way they did and just plodded along until the Big Bust Up last August.

If it's ok, I won't go into it now, lets just say I finally lost it for being accused of random crimes one time too many. After the bust up I started to google and read up about toxic and narcissistic parents and so many things fell into place. I've been an avid reader of this thread, just haven't had the guts to write here before.

So, today I received an email from a relative, and my emotions are bit all over the place. She knows about the NC and was there for me when I needed to pour out all the hurt and have a good cry after the bust up. She emailed to say that my M and SF visited her house (it was a social occasion with couple of other family members there) and that my M was unusually quiet and seemed somewhat down. She also seemed to avoid another relative's baby which is very unusual for her. Other than that, there was no other info about M. It might not seem much but part of me is seething and part of me is feeling guilty. We haven't spoken once since last August, she sent me a birthday card back in October and one text message to inform me that my grand mother had passed away back in January. She hasn't tried to contact me at all nor has she acknowledged my DC's birthdays for instance.

I'm seething because I feel she's trying to make me look like the bad guy. Having said that, she doesn't know that this relative knows. But I just feel that she's being mopey because she has such an awful daughter and she feels all hard done by. Aaarggh. And then the feeling of feeling guilty. I know about FOG and I know I'm not responsible (anymore) of her feelings, but I still feel bad.

Can I just add that I really don't think this relative is a flying monkey, I do not talk to her very often but we're always have had a good relationship and she has been very supportive.

Sorry, this first post became a lot longer than I thought it would.

[Theymakemefeellikeshit]

Meerka They are still too young but as we have read upthread children can be very perceptive so at some point they will slowly start to think. I was always very careful not to say anything when my DC were younger as I didn't want to influence their judgment but found as they have got older they started comment bit by bit.

I understand much more about how people tick than can actually fully put into practice, if you see what I mean. Bit of a gap between understanding and performance. I'll keep plugging on. Keep plugging and the gap will get smaller and smaller. You posts are very well thought out and I know other will agree with me that you have been most helpful.

Our confidence has been worn down my our parents so we find it hard to fully appreciate how well we are doing

[Theymakemefeellikeshit]

Welcome Nordic

I expect your mum was putting in her performance in the hope that it would get back to you.

What ever caused the big bust would have been the straw that broke the camel's back. If you told people in real life they would probably think that you have over reacted but as we know on this thread it is a part of long line of poor parenting.

You will not be judged here and I have found as | have gone along that I have a posted an incident here and incident there (as others do). As upsetting as it is I have also found it it is helping as no one thinks I am a bitch or is shocked.

We are here to listen

[Milllli]

Nordic was your grandmother her mother?

[BeaufortBelle]

Thinking more about this overnight, do narcissists know they are being unkind and behaving in a way that is unacceptable deep down or are they oblivious to it? I have only skimmed the surface of what all this means but if, for example, my mother has a recognised disorder should I not be looking at ways to help her rather than blaming her? Ultimately she's in a worse place than me now. She's the one who is elderly, who I think the people in her village have a bit of a laugh about in quiet, who they know can't sustain relationships, without too many friends, etc., and sadly no real interests except herself. Yes, she was vile to me growing up and impacted my self esteem deeply but I have been married once, have good relationships with my almost grown children and friendships that span 30 years.

I know I'll never please her and I know I'll never know a proper mother's love. I know she made my life a struggle at times but I have to let it go don't I, if it's something in her psyche that she couldn't help?

[GoodtoBetter]

Beaufort I have wondered the same things to an extent and indeed my therapist (who also did therapy with my brother) said that in his opinion she almost certainly had a "narcissistic personality disorder". I think to a certin extent she can't help it and she won't change, but it's not MY responsibility. If she IS unhappy then it is HER life and she needs to find some therapy herslf and sort out why she behaves like this. It's not up to me to put up with abuse because she had NPD. I have to protect myself. Also, there isn't any help I can give her, she needs to sort it out for herself and I'm not prepared to be her emotional punching bag while she thinks about it.
We (daughters of narc mothers) are SO conditioned to feel responsible for their emotions, their wellbeing, to put them first, to feel guilty if we don't, to excuse their behaviour. But IT'S NOT HEALTHY! You could argue that you are damaged by her, that you ahve an excuse to behave badly, but you don't, do you? Why is she excused?
Don't go down that road. If she is sad then it is up to her to make amends, to sort out her own emotional issues. (She won't, by the way). You are allowed to put yourself first and be NC if necessary while she does that. You really are. That has been a totally REVOLUTIONARY thing for me and I still find it hard to believe but it's true. We are important too.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

This may help you Beaufort if you have not already read this.

From Lightshouse re narcissists:-

"They know what wrong is, and they may do it, but they cannot accept the concept of being a person who does anything wrong, because that means they're not superior and perfect. So narcissists vehemently push away the information that they've done something hurtful. They do know what a hurtful act is, and yet they have to deny that they did it.

Narcissists use a number of different ways to deny their hurtful actions (and to try making you deny it along with them so you'll stop complaining). Blaming others, gaslighting, labeling someone who complains about them cruel, lying, making excuses and playing the martyr are a narcissist's typical responses. Whatever it takes to stop all recognition (by them and you) of the fact that they were inconsiderate can be expected.

So yes, narcissists are aware that they've hurt your feelings and that it's wrong, but they just cannot accept that knowledge. They deny it to prevent narcissistic injury, and desperately want you to deny it as well. And usually, they deny it so quickly and so habitually that it doesn't even register in their consciousness before the excuses and protests are given out.

Typically, when told they've hurt your feelings, a narcissist's denial takes the forms of insisting you're not hurt, or that you shouldn't be hurt, that you're wrong to be hurt, that they didn't hurt you, that you're too easily hurt, and that you shouldn't complain because they're hurt worse".

What you write of your mother reminds me of my late FIL; he was very similar in that he also had no friends, no relationship skills and self absorbed. Such people reap what they sow; all they care about is themselves.

The only person you can help ultimately is you; your mother is the way she is through no fault of your own. You did not cause her to act in the ways she did; her own family of origin did that. She does not want any help from anyone, let alone your good self. You cannot afford to be dragged down with her any longer, you are not her therapist (not that such people like your mother ever seek therapy because of their lack of self awareness) and should never ever act as one.

Do read "Will I ever be good enough?" by Karyl McBride.

[GoodtoBetter]

I think you can agree to let it go and sort of "forgive" somehow, to see them as a sad and difficult person and not blame them, but that has to be part of withdrawing from them emotionally too, whether that's LC or NC.
I think my mother for instance (who is almost certainly a narc) is so far into the victim mentality that she is totally INCAPABLE of understanding that she has hurt me. Any withdrawal on my part, any deviation from always putting her first in everything and she takes it as an attack, of which she is the victim. She is always the wronged one, the victim, always.

[PeppermintCrayon]

if, for example, my mother has a recognised disorder should I not be looking at ways to help her rather than blaming her?

You can't help her, you can't change her, all you can do is take care of yourself.

I don't think it's about blaming her. Rather, it's recognising what you are protecting yourself from.

[Hippymama1]

Beaufort I have also wondered about this... Not sure if it is the same for you but I have thought that maybe if DM was actually 'ill' it might make some of the things and some of the experiences less bad as she can't actually help it and it was not her intention for things to end up this way.

I found the information posted here by Attilla and a lot of the previous posts my Meerka on this subject really useful, in that it feels to me that they just have a big gap in their brains where most of us have empathy and responsibility - they just don't feel or experience those things in the same way as we do.

If I upset someone or hurt their feelings, I would be mortified regardless of whether or not I meant the behaviour and would be keen to apologise and make amends with the other person.

A narc simply can't do that because they don't empathise with the hurt person or their feelings or feel responsible for them so it must feel to them that they are being blamed for something which isn't their fault, even if they know deep down that they do have some responsibility for it. They therefore fight back with the usual accusations of oversensitivity, taking things personally, why can't we just let things go etc... They just don't have the emotional capacity that we have.

I think of narcs as being very childlike in this way and it makes it easier for me to deal with. If a child hurts the feelings of another child, you have to explain the situation very simply and clearly to them and then, even though the child will apologise if directed to, and because it is the socially acceptable thing to do, they probably don't 100% get what they are doing and why as their personality and ability to empathise with others is still developing. This is kind of like a narc, although you wouldn't get an apology out of them, only indignation and accusation.

Ultimately, the decision isn't about whether or not your mother is ill and therefore needs help, it is about you and getting a relationship with her on your own terms. She is extremely unlikely to change or improve her behaviour so you really need to think about yourself and what is a reasonable amount of contact for you, and a reasonable relationship for you. Don't think about her or try to please her as you will never actually be able to please her and will only make life harder for you.

[NordicInKent]

Thank you for your kind words Theymakemefeel There's been so many incidents along the years that I could write, just don't know where to start*.

Millli Yes it was my maternal GM who passed away. She's been poorly for a while and her death didn't come up as a surprise.

After the Big Bust Up I started to really think and analyse their behaviour and look back of all the old incidents and I feel so desperately sad for that little girl that was once me. My M was very controlling but also ignored me. I feel desperately sad for that little invisible and ignored girl. I'm 42 now and still feel that I don't really matter. I now realise how non-existent my boundaries have been through out my life. It's a complete miracle that I've never had an abusive relationship and that I managed to find myself a healthy and very supportive husband.

As a little girl I was exposed to violence, alcohol, fundamental religion and porn but no-one fought my corner. I'm trying to remember this when I waver and start feel sorry for my mother.

[Meerka]

Thinking more about this overnight, do narcissists know they are being unkind and behaving in a way that is unacceptable deep down or are they oblivious to it? I have only skimmed the surface of what all this means but if, for example, my mother has a recognised disorder should I not be looking at ways to help her rather than blaming her?

atilla and hippy have said it all, really, but just to say I think the same!

I think myself that almost all people start off with the ability to think of others or say Sorry but that for whatever reason (too much experience of the Blame Game, apologising was seen as weakness, too proud, too insecure, whatever) they choose not to.

Every time a small situation comes up, they start choosing for their own self interest, what makes them feel better. Most people do that, but most people also have a point at which they realise their self interest is going too far and then they stop deciding entirely in their own interests and start weighing other peoples' needs in their decision-making. Very selfish people don't. They choose for themselves over and over, no matter what.

Over time it becomes habit and habit hardens into unbreakable patterns. At last the capacity for change is lost.

So yes I think they know for a long time that they are hurting other people but they choose not to care. (Sometimes there are people with such low self worth they can't see that they are hurting others, too). Then by the end of this path they're walking, they don't see other people's hurt or don't see that it's reasonable. Their needs and wishes are what count. others' don't.

Either way, if someone's gone this far you can't change them.

Any change, any healing can only come when THEY want it. You can't force someone to change. All you can do is offer them the chance to seek help - but only they can do it. They might also be very, very offended at any suggestion they need help because well, they're perfect aren't they?


Loving someone very selfish or (worse) with NPD is a lonely and unrewarding job. Unfortunately the older people get, they often become more set in their patterns of behaviour. When that includes consistently choosing to blinker themselves to their own behaviour, you've got no chance. The only hope is that something will crack their miles-thick carapace.

[Fuzzyfelt123]

Thinking more about this overnight, do narcissists know they are being unkind and behaving in a way that is unacceptable deep down or are they oblivious to it?

I think about this all the time Beau. In fact it's on my mind at lot since I've been LC with my DM.
She is not a diagnosed narc, but it's only through the insight and guidance of Mumsnetters on this board that I recognized her for what she is I THINK! Because as the result if being brought up by someone like this, you doubt your own judgement all the time.
I think if I was validated by a formal diagnosis, I would be able to consistently react to DM as advised on here - emotional detachment, light convo when you do meet, no real information imparted etc. And I would come to terms with the fact she lacks empathy and responsibility - they just don't feel or experience those things in the same way as we do

I'm sitting in the toilet at work writing this, so compelled was I to respond to this topic! Which also illustrates how much this is messing with my mind currently!

LC has really helped me on so many ways, but weirdly I dwell on these topics more the longer I go without seeing her, and doubt my thinking more. When I do see her, I feel absolutely that I'm right about her and right to be LC, even when she's being reasonable (which is most if the time now, since I raised my boundaries) . I guess it's all part if the journey.
Hugs and to all xxx

[Theymakemefeellikeshit]

I still can't get my head round the fact that people can say and do such heartless things. I know they can as my parents do and I know from here that other parents do too but I still find it difficult that they find it acceptable. What is going through their heads?!!!

I have probably said it before but the older I get the harder I am finding it

[Theymakemefeellikeshit]

When my sister's marriage failed due to her having an affair my mum was beside herself with how my sister was going to cope on her own.

So she can care about things

Or was it the drama she was enjoying

[Hippymama1]

theymakeme

In my experience, it is a bit about caring for the feelings of the other person, although they can never truly empathise with the person as they just don't have that capacity. It is mostly about the drama though - if you listen to the narc talking about the situation then a lot of what they say will be gossip rather than concern and there will be a lot of talk in there about what the narc thinks, what it means to the narc, how hard it is for the narc and how the narc is struggling to know what to do for the best etc... I found the info here: //www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/emotional-vampires/ particularly accurate for my situation...

[Theymakemefeellikeshit]

My sister is the golden child so I thought there might be some empathy because of this

Hippymama After reading the link I now have this vision in my head of my mother dressed in black throwing herself on my coffin wailing about how much she will miss me!!