Emotional incest, dysfunction etc with DP and MIL, or just your typical MIL situation? Long, sorry!

[itsmondayagain]

NC for this as don't want to out myself - any opinions and advice on this would be much appreciated as I know little about this kind of thing.

Context: Myself and DP been together for 3 years. DP currently works away in the week due to work. No DCs. Both just under 30. MIL is divorced, since DP was a teen. She never met anyone else but FIL has been in a new relationship for 12 years. MIL used to be very nice and supportive of me, but as time has gone on, she's pulled a few not so nice stunts. DP lived with mother when parents divorced, and he had a rocky time where his dad was concerned - ie MIL would drive out of the house and wait in the car round the corner when my DP was 14 years old, if his dad came to pick him up. DP's current relationship with each parent is pretty stable and he often comments that he has a good relationship with them both, and is happy with the situation. However, there is a rule that we cannot talk about FIL in front of MIL - indeed she is extremely negative about the FIL at any opportunity, and when we first started seeing one another, MIL divuldged many things to me that semeed to me to simply be trying to make me turn against FIL (I didn't - I took anything they said about one another with a pinch of salt).

When I first met DP, I thought this relationship with MIL was unusual - he was extremely attentive to her. I initially I thought this was very sweet, and it was something my mum said was admirable in a man etc etc. However, as time passed, I realised that my DP seemed to often act out of guilt, as opposed to desire. ie. in the early days, FIL invited us to stay with him and his gf at gf's villa in France for a weekend. It materialised that FIL's gf had had this home abroad since FIL had met her - I thought it strange that DP hadn't already been. When we decided to go, MIL was 'very upset' (apparently, I wasn't there when my DP told her we were going), and as a result, DP wanted to send MIL flowers. This was the first alarm bell to me that something wasn't right... surely that isn't normal to want to do that? Surely a mother shouldn't make her son feel that way about seeing his dad at his Dad's gf's villa? They have been diroved nearly 17 years at this point! Please tell me if I was wrong to assume this was odd.

Without going into detail about comments my DP has made in the past about his MIL and her behaviour (that would take a while!), I would like to give a few examples of what has happened in the last year or so to help with the current picture here. Just after xmas my DP worked 4 weekends in a row. I still saw him on weekends, but only briefly in the evenings. My MIL knew this. We had arranged to meet her for dinner, and on the morning of that day, she called and asked what we were doing that afternoon. I told her we were going bowling (I know!), before heading over to her...and she quite literally lost the plot - why couldn't she come, it wasn't fair, she was being left out. It was insane (or so I thought). My DP spoke to her and i'm not sure what she said but he came off the phone in floods of tears. MIL told me I 'hogged' DP.

Last year, DP had a phone convo with his mum when I was half asleep in the car - on loudspeaker. DP knew I could hear - MIL did not. DP made a comment that he may have to work in Ireland for 5 weeks soon, and said in a jokey way, 'Im not sure how happy xxx would be!' MIL proceeded to say I was clingy and needy, and was holding him back from his career, and then took the opportunity to tell DP that for a while she had thought out relationship was unhealthy. I was in tears at this point but didn't let MIL know I had heard. DP was apologetic, but during the conversation he just laughed it off and moved on - there was no real defence of me.

Unfortunately, said MIL has barely any friends (due to falls out on a regular basis). New people seem to come in and out of her life, and she will call my DP regulalry very upset after 'what soemone has said.' Last summer, she fell out with her aunt while on holiday (aunt left after 2 days), and they haven't spoken since.

A few other things:

• At Xmas MIL bought me a 2.99 Nivea hand cream from boots - AIBU to think this was a bit of a dig?
• I messaged MIL to thank her for the gift at Xmas..heard nothing back, not even a thank you for the gifts I had bought her
• DP gave the impression we needed to help MIL financially, as she is always saying she cannot afford to go anywhere on holiday (she has no mortgage and recently bought herself a new car...)
• The entire relationship seems like my DP is looking after her, rather than the other way around

So, finally, (if anyone has managed to get to this point), does my DP have a dysfunctional relationship with MIL? Does MIL emotionally depend on my DP and has this affected him? Or, (as is very possible), am I reading into things when it's just your average nagging MIL? Also, why was MIL previously nice to me, and has become more hostile as time has gone on?

Thank you in advance to anyone who has the energy to reply after this essay!

There's no such thing as an average nagging MIL. His relationship with her is probably dysfunctional because, from the stuff you describe, she appears to have cast him in the role of 'partner'... in the absence of one of her own.

Sole children of lone parents can be very protective and vice versa. However, if he's allowing it to spoil his relationship with you, then it's a serious problem and it's his problem, not yours. Why has she got worse as time as gone on? Probably because she thought you were a temporary fixture originally and now you appear to be more permanent.

He should be more assertive with her and he should be a lot clearer that you are part of his life. For your part, however, you've also got to get tougher. With him and with her. No more sitting in cars in tears listening to her bad mouth you, for example. You won't get anywhere being passive.

Gosh this would be ringing alarm bells for me too.

I think there is certainly an unhealthy dynamic going on here and I think it must have been going on for a very long time.

When she said those nasty things about you how did he respond to her? Did he defend you? Did he see how abnormal it was afterwards?

I also think she sees you as a rival for his time and affection? This is ridiculous. She sounds overbearing and I would have to say something about all of this to your dp.

So, finally, (if anyone has managed to get to this point), does my DP have a dysfunctional relationship with MIL?

In a word, yes. Theirs is an enmeshed relationship and that is not healthy at all.

"Does MIL emotionally depend on my DP and has this affected him?"

Yes. Do you really have to ask?. He is completely mired in FOG when it comes to his mother; fear obligation and guilt and he is far more afraid of "upsetting" her than he ever would be of potentially upsetting you. You will and are getting caught in the fallout of all this dysfunction here. His suggestion re the flowers and potentially helping her out financially were also strong indicator of that; mother must never be upset.

"Or, (as is very possible), am I reading into things when it's just your average nagging MIL?"

No and moreover this is not emotionally healthy behaviour for anyone, let alone his mother. His mother would likely have behaved in a similar manner to any woman that your man met. It is NOT your fault that she is the way she is; her own family of origin unleashed that lot of damage on her and you did not cause that to happen.

"Also, why was MIL previously nice to me, and has become more hostile as time has gone"
She likely thought that your relationship with her beloved number 1 boy was not serious; now that you have been together for some time she sees you as a threat.

His mother will not change, you can only change how you react to her.
Such people like his mother do not and never play by the "normal" rules governing familial relations and your kindness towards her was not surprisingly rejected. She was never going to thank you for any gifts and has herself given you a really rubbish present. You messaged this woman back thanking her for such a toxic gift; that was not a good idea at all!. You come from a family no doubt where such familial dysfunction is thankfully unknown but the dynamics within your man's family of origin are pretty much set in stone now.

Your man is also a problem because he is both unwilling and also unable (through years of conditioning at her hands) to stand up for either his own self or you. His inertia is simply hurting you both now and it will not change so long as he cannot stand up for himself.

I am not at all surprised that she is has no friends. There's a reason why such women like his mother and have not friends, its because they are themselves difficult and actually do not want friends (or anyone who has a different opinion to her). Also emotionally unhealthy people cannot do relationships at all because they think its all about them and them alone and that may have also been a factor in their divorce too.

Your man may well never step up at all and defend you at all when it comes to his mother. Basically I think your man on some level just wants you and his mother to get along so that he does not have to deal with the emotional fallout at all. That is also a very selfish way to behave on his part. He cannot deal with this in any case and so just wants this all to go away; of course this is not happening and will not ever happen.

You have a difficult choice here because now you are seeing the dynamics a bit more (and there have been an awful lot of signs here from the early days too) I would be wondering whether it is actually now worth continuing this relationship at all.

Would you want any future children to see their nan; it would do them no favours for them to see you all the time as their mother being so disrespected by his mother. Your love for him could well turn in time to both resentment and hate because of his inability to defend either you or even his own self here. She could meddle in any future plans and has already done so, what you have seen to date is really just the tip of a bloody great iceberg of dysfunction.

I would suggest you read "Toxic Inlaws" written by Susan Forward so you can further understand the power and control dynamics that are really going on here. Will your man consider counselling at all re his relationship with his mother?.

Thank you so much for all your replies, they are really appreciated.

I have only mentioned a few examples above - there are plenty more unfortunately.

Quitelikely My DP did not confornt her when she made the comments during the phone call int he car, and merely laughed them off and moved swiftly on. I could tell he knew it wasn't right, but he would never say anything to her outright, she would simply act the victim and cry and hang up on him etc etc.

Meerkat, thanks for your lenghtly response. I am very blunt, open and honest with my DP, and wear my heart on my slevve. As a result, anything I have said here, he already knows (bar the emotional incest refeence, which was speculation on my part anyay). What happens is that I will tell DP that MIL is being unfair and unreasonable, and he will respond 'she's on her own with nobody for her and she's old, stop being like that about her!!!'

It doesn't matter what I say, (and believe me, I can be very direct), he will always end up saying 'she is just an old woman stop being nasty about her.'

I come from a family where I have probably been spoiled a bit too much, and been the centre of my parents' universe. I find it hard to watch his MIL depend on DP so much - it doesnt feel 'right.' DP will claim that he wants to do all these things for his mum, as if it is his choice and he isn't obliged to at all. It just doesnt make sense when I look at the level of support I would give my parents or my friends would give theirs. No offence to my DP, but I dont' thnik it is a case of him being especially generous an dloving - I love my parents too and would do anything for them, but I also have a very honest and upfront relationship with them and I dont feel I need to do x y and z to be a good daughte r- perhaps I am a brat..!!

Since my DP has worked away during the week, MIL seems to have completely cut me off in terms of her acceptance of me. He started working away in the week about 6 months ago, and that's when the nasty phone call happened, the ideas for him to buy a place alone etc came from. What upsets me the most is that although I can see good thing sin this woman (I think there is common ground to be found with everyone if you try hard enough), I do think she is incredibly selfish. My Dp, unfortunately, seems to have adopted that attitude at times with our relationsip - ie. it is 1hour fifteen mins (max) to drive home to me in an evening but he works away in the week as 'it is easier.' I'm sure it is easier, not sure it's necessarily right when it's a temporary one year situation, which will revert to his usual 20 minute drive after that. (My commute is 1.15 too, but on a train..).

If he chooses his mother over your feelings, don't stick around to be insulted. Leave them to each other.....

I don't think his explanation that she's an old lady would wash with me.

What would wash for me would be if he challenged her insulting remarks about you? It's imperative that you feel he has your back.

I think your resentment is going to simmer away and he is a total fool if he thinks anyone else will put up with this behaviour from her. You will just be one of many.

Have you ever tried challenging her? Maybe you should do that, although I can see your dps chin hitting the floor if you did!

If he's unable or unwilling to stand up for you, then you have a serious relationship problem.

BTW... fast forward a few years when you're trying to bring up a family and can you imagine what that would be like if granny is always given top billing?

Wasting your time...

I read a book about this, or rather, i read a review about a book about this.

Your mil has replaced her dp with her ds, and yes, it is non sexual incest; or some similar term. No idea how to help, but leaving him isn't the answer. The fact that he has managed to break away from her enough to have a long term girlfriend shows he has made strides in the independence arena, but it will always be an uphill struggle for him.
good luck

Leaving him may not be the answer but it's really not the OP's job to help him in his 'uphill struggle'. She's not a therapist, she's his girlfriend. Why should she suffer?

Cognito thanks for your reply.

I think (hope) my DP realises what she can be like. When we lived together full time (ie he was around in the week), she was much less of an influence. However, since he is away in the week we never hear from her over the weekend. She actually has a call with my DP every Sunday evening, when she knows he has left our home for the week. It is as if she doesn't want to acknowledge the relationship anymore. It feels so strange.

I am quite a sensitive person, so I came here looking for blunt opinions as to whether I have read into things too much, or whether I have taken things too much to heart. It seems from the responses that I haven't done that. It's nice to have that reassurance but also feels a bit scary as now I have to deal with the fact that this really isn't 'right.'

My DP finishes his working away in June. MIL has suggested DP continutes with the current job as 'it's best for his career' (it isn't, andin any case we are fine financially and otherwise), and also suggested a while back that he move in with her - thankfully DP immediately said no to that one. It just feels like a constant negative force from her all the time.

The current issue: Mothers day. My parents, MIL, my sister and DP often go for sunday lunch. I said at the weekend 'where shall we book for the mum's on mother's day?' to which DP said, 'my mum might not want to go out with everyone, shemight just want it to be me and her.' ...... I explained that if that was the case, not only would I not see DP all week, but we would also lose a day of our weekend together. I also asked why she wouldnt want to share the day with everyone else - he just sai d'she can be funny like that and it's her day.' AIBU? My parents wouldnt even think of asking to 'just be with me,' knowing that me and DP see little of one another as it is.

Your DP has to grow up. You're either a family or you're not. If you're a family you have to do all of that juggling with the various ILs, 'sharing' your time over Christmas, marking Mothers Day and so on. Avoiding too much special treatment. It's just what you do...

My friend's DH insisted on spending every Christmas with his family on his own even after they were married and had a child together. He's since announced that he 'can't handle married life' and buggered off...

So I'm afraid I would be seeing this stuff as a warning of things to come.

Re your comment:-
He will always end up saying 'she is just an old woman stop being nasty about her.'

That is yet further evidence of him being totally enmeshed with his mother; their dynamic will not alter so long as either one of them continue to play any part within it. He will never be able to assert himself at all, he will continue to throw himself at her mercies and feet and will expect you to tow the party line as well.

Your man is really as much a problem as his mother is towards you. Is he really worth it, continuing with this will just give you more pain long term. You are his girlfriend, not his therapist and I very much doubt he will change. His mother certainly will not change. Your man is so far up her backside that he will continue to put her wishes well above yours; the fact to him that you will not see each other for part of the weekend is to him of no importance, its an irrelevant detail.

Leaving him may or equally may not give him any impetus to change; it is your life and your life with him currently is playing second fiddle to his overbearing mother. I think in a straight fight he would choose his mother over you.

If he's unable or unwilling to stand up for you, then you have a serious relationship problem

this.

if he see's you as an equal partner - he needs to put your thoughts/feelings first - you will have to take priority over his mother.

Or there is no relationship, you will always be second best like you are now.

I actually think that it's not dysfunctional This is a man who cares about his mum who is lonely.

If you lives anywhere wise in Europe thus would be the norm it's just not as usual in the U.K.

Just set clear expectations of your partner but donr come between them. It's nice!

Ok, so whether we all think this is healthy or not (I'm with the nots) this is the situation between him and his mother. She is happy with it. He is happy with it. So it's not going to change. Probably ever.

You know she isn't old. You know she is demanding and puts on tears and emotional blackmail to get her own way. You know she is totally invested in the relationship with her son to the extent that she wants it to be the primary relationship for both of them. You know your DP seems to be happy enough with all this.

I know you've been together 3 years but just try and imagine you've only just met your DP and have found out how things are with him and his mother. What are you thinking?

I can't see it at all. She seems quite normal to me. And I love a good MIL-bashing thread. No sorry, I think YABU.

Sorry, just realised this is not AIBU

puzzledemployer thanks for your response. I don't know if I would have embarked on the relationship, if I am honest. I find the emotional dependence a huge turn off. Once last summer when she called us to rant and rave about how vile her aunt had been about her whilst they had gone on holiday, (the time when her aunt ending up leaving the holiday cottage after day 2), my DP was in tears listening to her. He had tears running down his face as she banged on about what X had said to her, and how it had made her feel. He didn't let MIL know he was crying, obviously, but I just held his hand as he spoke to her. I know MIL was upset, (well, actually, it sounded more like anger than upset to me). She certainly wasnt crying herself though, it was just a rant. She wanted us to say she was in the right (to my mind, it seemed like MIL had taken huge offence to a relatively tame comment, and wouldntback down with the aunt so they weren't speaking).

I asked DP why he had cried after the call, and he said he felt sorry for her and wanted her ot have a nice time.

This made me really umcomfortable - I don't know why, but it did. I would be supportive of my mum in this situ and call her back to check eh was ok etc, but I wouldnt be in tears about it.

Do you think he's spending time with her in the evenings when he's away from home? (Nothing more than conjecture on my part.)

Optimist1 she lives about 2.5 hours from where he is based in the week. I know she has discussed meeting with him in evenings, though. I don't know if that's gone ahead - if it has, I havent been told.

At age 25 I might have written a very similar message - MIL and DP very interdependent. However, over time the relationship between the three of us changed (through a couple of big rows, being firm with MIL and also through getting DH to see the issues for himself - by taking her on holiday with us!). She is now my biggest asset, has a wonderful relationship with our son, we all go on holiday together and I am probably more attentive to her than DH.

So it can work out - but I wouldn't bother trying until you are certain that you want to marry DP.

Ewww I think he is your problem here, I would finish the relationship just based on the examples you've given. Hes totally not on your side at all, imagine having kids with him and having to put up with her interfering. In fact you don't have to imagine just read some of the MIL threads on here ......

maybedoctor how did that happen? and how bad was it at the start? was it pre or post marruage that she changed? why did you initiate a hol with her? i cant think of anything more stressful! sorry for all the qs - really interested to hear your story if you dont mind sharing in more detail!!

I asked about whether he might be seeing her during the week, and was relieved to see that logistically it's unlikely. But your comment "if it has, I haven't been told" was very telling - if he's not being open with you then your future with him looks shaky to me.