Emotional incest, dysfunction etc with DP and MIL, or just your typical MIL situation? Long, sorry!

[itsmondayagain]

NC for this as don't want to out myself - any opinions and advice on this would be much appreciated as I know little about this kind of thing.

Context: Myself and DP been together for 3 years. DP currently works away in the week due to work. No DCs. Both just under 30. MIL is divorced, since DP was a teen. She never met anyone else but FIL has been in a new relationship for 12 years. MIL used to be very nice and supportive of me, but as time has gone on, she's pulled a few not so nice stunts. DP lived with mother when parents divorced, and he had a rocky time where his dad was concerned - ie MIL would drive out of the house and wait in the car round the corner when my DP was 14 years old, if his dad came to pick him up. DP's current relationship with each parent is pretty stable and he often comments that he has a good relationship with them both, and is happy with the situation. However, there is a rule that we cannot talk about FIL in front of MIL - indeed she is extremely negative about the FIL at any opportunity, and when we first started seeing one another, MIL divuldged many things to me that semeed to me to simply be trying to make me turn against FIL (I didn't - I took anything they said about one another with a pinch of salt).

When I first met DP, I thought this relationship with MIL was unusual - he was extremely attentive to her. I initially I thought this was very sweet, and it was something my mum said was admirable in a man etc etc. However, as time passed, I realised that my DP seemed to often act out of guilt, as opposed to desire. ie. in the early days, FIL invited us to stay with him and his gf at gf's villa in France for a weekend. It materialised that FIL's gf had had this home abroad since FIL had met her - I thought it strange that DP hadn't already been. When we decided to go, MIL was 'very upset' (apparently, I wasn't there when my DP told her we were going), and as a result, DP wanted to send MIL flowers. This was the first alarm bell to me that something wasn't right... surely that isn't normal to want to do that? Surely a mother shouldn't make her son feel that way about seeing his dad at his Dad's gf's villa? They have been diroved nearly 17 years at this point! Please tell me if I was wrong to assume this was odd.

Without going into detail about comments my DP has made in the past about his MIL and her behaviour (that would take a while!), I would like to give a few examples of what has happened in the last year or so to help with the current picture here. Just after xmas my DP worked 4 weekends in a row. I still saw him on weekends, but only briefly in the evenings. My MIL knew this. We had arranged to meet her for dinner, and on the morning of that day, she called and asked what we were doing that afternoon. I told her we were going bowling (I know!), before heading over to her...and she quite literally lost the plot - why couldn't she come, it wasn't fair, she was being left out. It was insane (or so I thought). My DP spoke to her and i'm not sure what she said but he came off the phone in floods of tears. MIL told me I 'hogged' DP.

Last year, DP had a phone convo with his mum when I was half asleep in the car - on loudspeaker. DP knew I could hear - MIL did not. DP made a comment that he may have to work in Ireland for 5 weeks soon, and said in a jokey way, 'Im not sure how happy xxx would be!' MIL proceeded to say I was clingy and needy, and was holding him back from his career, and then took the opportunity to tell DP that for a while she had thought out relationship was unhealthy. I was in tears at this point but didn't let MIL know I had heard. DP was apologetic, but during the conversation he just laughed it off and moved on - there was no real defence of me.

Unfortunately, said MIL has barely any friends (due to falls out on a regular basis). New people seem to come in and out of her life, and she will call my DP regulalry very upset after 'what soemone has said.' Last summer, she fell out with her aunt while on holiday (aunt left after 2 days), and they haven't spoken since.

A few other things:

• At Xmas MIL bought me a 2.99 Nivea hand cream from boots - AIBU to think this was a bit of a dig?
• I messaged MIL to thank her for the gift at Xmas..heard nothing back, not even a thank you for the gifts I had bought her
• DP gave the impression we needed to help MIL financially, as she is always saying she cannot afford to go anywhere on holiday (she has no mortgage and recently bought herself a new car...)
• The entire relationship seems like my DP is looking after her, rather than the other way around

So, finally, (if anyone has managed to get to this point), does my DP have a dysfunctional relationship with MIL? Does MIL emotionally depend on my DP and has this affected him? Or, (as is very possible), am I reading into things when it's just your average nagging MIL? Also, why was MIL previously nice to me, and has become more hostile as time has gone on?

Thank you in advance to anyone who has the energy to reply after this essay!

How do you define "emotional incest" ?

Is it helpful to use such a phrase which is likely to be upsetting, unnecessarily incendiary to your DP and I am guessing to those who have suffered actual incest.

rationaloptimist My view is that if someone is hurting then someone is hurting. You seem to feel it is really important to dismiss the OP's perspective. I don't understand why.

My view is that the marriage vow 'forsaking all other' doesn't just mean that you don't have sex with other people. It means that you should put your partner at the centre of your life. There are people out there who will, for whatever reason, not encourage their children to do so. There are people out there who will sabotage the relationships of their children so that those children keep them company. It isn't about the sisterhood. It is about some people not being nice people.

OP I wish I had advice but unless your DP backs you up 100% you cannot win and I would walk away. I never found any tactic worked with my mother apart from distance.

No, you're just defensive. I'm being defensive too, because I have a problem with it. Hence why I suspect you have your own problem.

Emotional incest is where the parent relies heavily on their child in an emotional way that should be reserved for adults/specifically a spouse. Have a google.

You didn't answer my Qs - do you think the behaviour described is balanced and reasonable and appropriate?

You're projecting and arguing about definitions rationaloptimist123. It's really not helpful to do that in the Relationships topic.

Rationaloptimist, I agree with you. Note though that only one type of post is welcome on these types of threads. Bash mother-in-law. Control relationship between MIL and son. The level of love and attention given to MIL must be controlled and decided by wife otherwise any without permission is too much.

Issues are always with the two women, wife and MIL. Always about control over situations or others. Always a fight for dominance.

In many other countries, taking care of your elderly parents or being attentive to their needs is a celebrated norm. Here in the UK the growing number of lonely and discarded elderly people are shocking.

OP I think your options are limited. Either leave or find a way to work with your partner to trust what he says when he tells you that you are number one and that he needs to care for his mother and in some cases he feels it is best to humour her than create a big bruhaha over small stuff.

I know my views will not be welcome here but alternative views are worth airing.

Also agree the term emotional incest is soooo very inappropriate for the situation you described. I was expecting to read something very different to the concerns you raised.

I did come away thinking you might be prone to overdramatising and that you may resent your DP conferring attention on another. I suspect if you gave him an ultimatum to choose between you and his mother, he might reason that he only has one mother and partners may come and go. But surely he has enough love for the two of you? The love for wife and mother is also different, isn't it? So no need for competiting for love and attention?

You and you MIL may have a mutual dislike of each other. Who is to blame? I cannot tell.

Good luck anyway.

newrule I appreciate your response. I suspect you have never been in a situation like this. The woman I refer to is aggressive and manipulative - if this was a friend that my dp was defending then you would probably have a different answer.

I understand that there is a level where I need to accept we must 'humour' her - and I do that. But I posted here because I have been increasingly worried about MIL's influence on my DP. If you had a son would you think it was ok to cause him to cry during fifty percent of the conversations you had worth him? That is the point at which I find her behaviour inappropriate.

I am sorry that you find yourself in this situation. It is incredibly difficult because you love your DP, and can see that his relationship with his DM is unhealthy, but you feel a need to support him emotionally which often means putting yourself second. This can end up being a big issue and put a strain on all relationships.
My situation is similar, but not as toxic as your relationship with your MIL. My DH had a troubled childhood as a result of his parents splitting up, getting back together, and splitting up again. And helpfully using him to ferry messages between each other. In addition to that, his DF was emotionally dependent on him and DH was unable to lead a normal life until he left the country to get away from family at 20. What I can tell you, is that after years of counselling, DH still feels emotionally responsible for his DF and struggles whenever his DF demands his attention and sympathy. Luckily I have no real reason to clash with FIL because DH puts us first (again, after many years of struggling and putting his Father's needs first), but I can see that DH still hates the nature of the relationship and the fact that his life has been domineered by a parent to such an extent. In fact, DH really only starting putting himself and us first when we had our first DC and knew that he had to protect his family from feeling emotionally responsible for an adult that should know better.
I don't know whether any of my rambling will help, but rather than concentrating on your MIL, I think it might be worth trying to get your DP to address his feelings and work on those. Only he can change this relationship, and it will be a difficult journey - people are very resistant to change. Good luck, and I hope that you both support each other through what could be an exhausting experience.

Its is not 'normal' to make your son cry like op mum does!
I have a 26 yr old son and I find OP's DP and DM relationship very odd.
This is not about her as a mum, but as a manipulative, aggressive individual who has dysfunctional relationships in general.

"I understand that there is a level where I need to accept we must 'humour' her - and I do that".

I would not be doing that at all. You certainly need to further raise your already all too low boundaries. "Humouring her" as you have done just reinforces and rewards further her own bad behaviours. Call her out on each and every time you are bad mouthed and disrespected. Do the same with him.

His mother is overbearing, manipulative and will not change. You have to determine for your own self whether your man is indeed worth staying with or not because he cannot back you up properly partly because of her own conditioning of him. I also think that he both cannot and will not deal with his mother at all effectively and also on some level wishes that you could both get along so that he does not have to deal with this either.

I wrote previously that in a straight fight he would choose her over you; my opinion has not changed.

In many other countries, taking care of your elderly parents or being attentive to their needs is a celebrated norm

I think people have sentimentalised this. I live in Mexico and it is definitely not the norm to send old people to an asylum but that doesn't mean that everything in the garden is rosy between MILs and their SILs and DILs.

I am a bit surprised at people defending the MIL here. She doesn't have to like her son's partners but she should be polite and respectful.

Monday, I am old enough to have been in and to have seen many things. So don't assume too much here.

Coyoacan, giving high regard to elderly relatives will not mean that MIL and DIL relationships will be all honkry dorey. That goes without saying, doesn't it?

In any case, when it is the norm to be attentive to elderly parents, it is far less likely that there will be conflict over how much attention elderly female relatives are receiving from husband.

Look, I don't for one minute expect that on such thread any suggestion that MIL should be cut some slack will be appreciated. I have been on mumsnet only a couple of months and it us clear that only 'kill the witch' or 'leave the manchild' views will be welcome.

The OP doesn't want to exclude the mother or leave her dp though!

She is seeking alternative options to try to ease the situation, that she has found herself in through no fault if her own.

Well, here in Mexico, as in the UK, being 65 years of age is not elderly, Newrule, unless a person has a serious health condition or a mentality like the MIL we are talking about.

I am not far off that age myself and I would not like to be so dependent on my dd. And no matter how old you are there is no excuse for rudeness, especially in a relationship where the woman's son is caught in the middle.

In fact, from the OP's comments so far, the only person who has been disrespectful is the MIL.

Coyoacan, of course the MIL is disrespectful and a horrible person. I did not expect you to say otherwise.

Not all 65 year olds are sprightly and elderly can be applied to 65 year olds. Perhaps senior citizen is better or what about older people? Anyway semantics whatever terminology you choose, my point applies.

Newrule, do you have any good suggestions for the OP?
She has a problem and would like to get on with her partner's mother but all her efforts so far have failed. So what do you think she should do?

OP I am sorry you are in this situation.
Atilla the Meerkat has offered sound, if bleak advice. Don't dismiss it.

When I started posting on MN about my difficult mil, people often commented "if you have a mil problem, you actually have a DH problem"

Several years on, DH and I have been put into an awful, life-changing position because of MIL's increasingly appalling behaviour. Mil tried to take over his will preparation and aimed to remove any control I would have had over our marital home, in the event of me being widowed. She was also trying to push through guardians for our child, whom our child has hardly met. This would have meant that in the event of our child being orphaned, her trauma could have even compounded by her being sent to stay with people she hardly knows. This was being done completely behind my back.

DH saw the light just in time, and has rejected all her suggestions. But it has been intensely traumatic. DH has finally recognised how awful she has been and is now preparing for counselling.

I am not saying this will happen to you of course. But the apparently minor boundary infractions by mil, and DH's inability to defend me against her nasty comments have led incrementally to this awful situation.

Is you partner scared of his mother? Mine always has been. If your partner is able to stand up to his mother when necessary, then things can probably improve.
Good luck.

Ps on the subject of emotional incest, mil suggested DH spend valentine's day with her. He turned her down, and she sulked for several days, then sent an abusive email.

"Been compounded" not "even compounded"
Auto-correct...

Coyocan, I have already given her my advice and also wished her luck.

Why do I detect anger from you?

My surmise ...
MIL's marriage broke up in about 17 years ago, when she was in her mid/late forties. I am guessing (but don't know) this was because of FIL finding his current or another OW. MIL was left as single parent with the bulk of the child - rearing responsibilities.

If she had been on MN back then, there would have been a chorus of support for her.

She's raised a son on her own but clearly hasn't found any true happiness since then. She is clearly not always nice. Who is?

Her son is obviously (over) sensitive to her needs and doesn't want to make her unhappy (if he can avoid it). He seems particularly sensitive to her being upset by others and OP has seen him cry (on two occasions). Cue chorus of "Where's his backbone, what a namby-pampy mummy's boy".

Fine. Find yourself a macho man.

Again my surmise, rather than containing the issue at hand (dealing with each case of unreasonable behaviour in the moment like a mature adult) OP decides to use terminology that could be unnecessarily "catastrophising" suggesting she sees MIL (at some level in her own mind at least) as a sexual rival. Otherwise why hijack the term "incest"?

There is no doubt MIL has been unpleasant.

Deal with her like a grown up. Tell her what you think and feel. But don't make a bad situation worse by projecting your own insecurities about your relationship on to her as rival to you for the one man.

This debate would be so different if an only daughter happened to be particularly close or protective of her dad. If her insecure male DP came on here accusing her of "emotional incest" with the dad, I am sure he would be told to grow a pair and stop being so twisted, perverted in his thinking.

I would also bet that the reaction here would be totally different if your DP happened to be overly close to his unpleasant / unreasonable Dad.

Or would you call that "Emotional Gay Incest" ??

Whether or not it can be called emotional incest, two things I think everyone can agree on is that the OP's MIL should not be complaining about the OP to her partner, and that the partner should not allow the mil to do this if she tries it.

I have learnt this the hard way.

I think that when OP refers to 'emotional incest' she possibly means 'emotional parentification'

I have been in a very similar situation to op, I took a step back and let dh work things out for himself, it took a while and was at times very painful for both of us but we are now at a point where dh decides when he will speak to her and has made it clear that I come first as his wife, I don't have anything to do with his mom, she too has few friends and takes offence very easily and whilst I wasnhurt sje couldn't even congratulate us on our recent wedding it is her loss, I think she has only just started to realise how disfunctional their relationship is/was, its mot perfect and I worry how things will be when she is a lot older but my dh has really made positive inroads, it will only change if your dp wants the relationship to change, good luck!

Advising OP to deal with his mother like a grown up is not possible when the other person's emotional development probably stopped at around the age of six.

OPs mother does not give a fig about what the OP thinks and would regard any woman as a threat to her own overtly invested, controlling and enmeshed relationship with her darling boy. She does not want any woman to have what she regards as her own possession.