Emotional incest, dysfunction etc with DP and MIL, or just your typical MIL situation? Long, sorry!

[itsmondayagain]

NC for this as don't want to out myself - any opinions and advice on this would be much appreciated as I know little about this kind of thing.

Context: Myself and DP been together for 3 years. DP currently works away in the week due to work. No DCs. Both just under 30. MIL is divorced, since DP was a teen. She never met anyone else but FIL has been in a new relationship for 12 years. MIL used to be very nice and supportive of me, but as time has gone on, she's pulled a few not so nice stunts. DP lived with mother when parents divorced, and he had a rocky time where his dad was concerned - ie MIL would drive out of the house and wait in the car round the corner when my DP was 14 years old, if his dad came to pick him up. DP's current relationship with each parent is pretty stable and he often comments that he has a good relationship with them both, and is happy with the situation. However, there is a rule that we cannot talk about FIL in front of MIL - indeed she is extremely negative about the FIL at any opportunity, and when we first started seeing one another, MIL divuldged many things to me that semeed to me to simply be trying to make me turn against FIL (I didn't - I took anything they said about one another with a pinch of salt).

When I first met DP, I thought this relationship with MIL was unusual - he was extremely attentive to her. I initially I thought this was very sweet, and it was something my mum said was admirable in a man etc etc. However, as time passed, I realised that my DP seemed to often act out of guilt, as opposed to desire. ie. in the early days, FIL invited us to stay with him and his gf at gf's villa in France for a weekend. It materialised that FIL's gf had had this home abroad since FIL had met her - I thought it strange that DP hadn't already been. When we decided to go, MIL was 'very upset' (apparently, I wasn't there when my DP told her we were going), and as a result, DP wanted to send MIL flowers. This was the first alarm bell to me that something wasn't right... surely that isn't normal to want to do that? Surely a mother shouldn't make her son feel that way about seeing his dad at his Dad's gf's villa? They have been diroved nearly 17 years at this point! Please tell me if I was wrong to assume this was odd.

Without going into detail about comments my DP has made in the past about his MIL and her behaviour (that would take a while!), I would like to give a few examples of what has happened in the last year or so to help with the current picture here. Just after xmas my DP worked 4 weekends in a row. I still saw him on weekends, but only briefly in the evenings. My MIL knew this. We had arranged to meet her for dinner, and on the morning of that day, she called and asked what we were doing that afternoon. I told her we were going bowling (I know!), before heading over to her...and she quite literally lost the plot - why couldn't she come, it wasn't fair, she was being left out. It was insane (or so I thought). My DP spoke to her and i'm not sure what she said but he came off the phone in floods of tears. MIL told me I 'hogged' DP.

Last year, DP had a phone convo with his mum when I was half asleep in the car - on loudspeaker. DP knew I could hear - MIL did not. DP made a comment that he may have to work in Ireland for 5 weeks soon, and said in a jokey way, 'Im not sure how happy xxx would be!' MIL proceeded to say I was clingy and needy, and was holding him back from his career, and then took the opportunity to tell DP that for a while she had thought out relationship was unhealthy. I was in tears at this point but didn't let MIL know I had heard. DP was apologetic, but during the conversation he just laughed it off and moved on - there was no real defence of me.

Unfortunately, said MIL has barely any friends (due to falls out on a regular basis). New people seem to come in and out of her life, and she will call my DP regulalry very upset after 'what soemone has said.' Last summer, she fell out with her aunt while on holiday (aunt left after 2 days), and they haven't spoken since.

A few other things:

• At Xmas MIL bought me a 2.99 Nivea hand cream from boots - AIBU to think this was a bit of a dig?
• I messaged MIL to thank her for the gift at Xmas..heard nothing back, not even a thank you for the gifts I had bought her
• DP gave the impression we needed to help MIL financially, as she is always saying she cannot afford to go anywhere on holiday (she has no mortgage and recently bought herself a new car...)
• The entire relationship seems like my DP is looking after her, rather than the other way around

So, finally, (if anyone has managed to get to this point), does my DP have a dysfunctional relationship with MIL? Does MIL emotionally depend on my DP and has this affected him? Or, (as is very possible), am I reading into things when it's just your average nagging MIL? Also, why was MIL previously nice to me, and has become more hostile as time has gone on?

Thank you in advance to anyone who has the energy to reply after this essay!

Monday - sadly no matter what you do she will never see you as a friend because of the unhealthy relationship she has with your DP. She views him as a surrogate husband and you therefore as the Other Woman. There is nothing you can do about this.

The only hope for your relationship is for your DP to see the unhealthy nature of his relationship with her and stand up to her.

You need to lay it on the line to him that he must support you or your relationship is at an end.

I have thought about so many ways to handle it. I aksed DP last night if he would consider talking through his relationship with his mother with someone professional. He said he would and said that he did think it was not a 'usual' relationship.

There is a point at which he will flip though and go all defnesive. I try and tell him that I am trying to help, but presumably he sees that as patronising and offensive to him and his family. It seems to be a fine line betwene what I can and can't say.

I dont know how much benefit he would get from seeing someone...he would have to be really honest and im not sure he would be.

I ended a relationship with a man I really loved because of his mother.

He was an only son and it became obvious that he was in a quagmire of FOG and she had such control over him that he would never question her. I came to realise that he would never put me first, that she could say whatever she liked about me and he would do and say nothing.

It was one of the hardest things I have ever done but I knew it would save me from a lifetime of disappointment and pain.

Some years later I learned through mutual friends that he met a woman and got engaged but she called off the engagement because of his mother.

I really hope your DP can change.

silveroldie2 did you ever ask him to stand up to her outright? what sort of things did she say?

It makes me so unhappy and I too feel like I become more and mre distant from him the mor ehe lets this behaviour continue. It's so sad because he is a lovely man outside o his relationship with her.

How can she see you as a friend? She has no friends! Look what's happened to every single person she's been close to - she's destroyed the relationship.

Frankly, he sounds like a weak man. I wouldn't be able to forgive him for not speaking up for you when he was on the phone to her. An apology afterwards when his mum couldn't even hear that isn't enough.

Also I noticed you said he's living away from home all week when his journey is only just over an hour. Why does he do that? What kind of adult is he that he can't travel that distance, particularly when you do, too?

Ugh, sorry, but he's not even an adult. How can you think of a future with him? Wouldn't you like a husband whose mum was nice to you and who was happy to join in with your family for events like Christmas and Mother's Day? Wouldn't you prefer a man who had a healthy relationship with his mum? I don't know how you can fancy him, with his staying away from home because it's easier, not backing you up, his horrible toxic mother. OP, there are lovely men out there with lovely mums - go and find one!

I did on many occasions but he was incapable of doing so.

On the first occasion I was taken to meet her - she lived a long train ride away - he refused to have a beer with lunch on the train because she would smell it on his breath. We were both in our early 30s so it was hardly a crime to have a drink with lunch I thought.

She met us at the station. As we approached, she looked me up and down and back again, said not a word of greeting, instead saying to me ' I suppose that's your doing' pointing at my DP's beard. I replied that no, he was an adult and it was his choice, he said nothing. Later that evening, he shaved off his beard.

I complimented her on the various antiques in her house and was told 'please don't touch them, they are very precious to me'. DP said 'oh yes, please be careful'. Not sure if they thought I was going to chop them up for firewood. I used to buy and sell antiques in my spare time so knew how to handle them.

The atmosphere became more and more frosty over the weekend so needed several stiff drinks poured down my throat on the train home.

At one point I was listening to a phone call with her and she said something particularly nasty about me but he said nothing. After the call I asked him if he didn't feel bad about not supporting me against what she had said. He said she didn't really mean it and just forget about it. I realised then that he would never put us first, she would always win. That's when I made my decision to end it. Hardest thing ever.

I wish you well whatever you decide to do

I'm married to a man who has unhealthy relationship with his mother. Everyday is not a struggle and usual days seem so much better. But I'm fed up because MIL gets the preference because of her 'old age' and 'tough life'. I believe there is too much guilt in my husband (only son with single divorced/widowed mum) and fear of standing up to her, as it has brought no good for him on his previous attempts. His needs were never met, even today their phone talks are only one way - all about her. Let alone he feels he can get justice for someone else. He has learnt to ignore her and just obey her wishes as that is the least painful path, knowing full well that she uses him. It felt like enmeshment at the beginning, now I believe that the whole family has given up on having a relationship with her. Its always so one sided that she has no real friends or relationships. But she gets what she wants, one way or another.

At the moment, I'm on the fence for divorce so not much help but if I could, I would end my relationship. There have been discussions that since I don't get along with MIL, how much time will our kids spend with her. Its another friction point as she already has plans so I'm always made to feel that I'm disrupting their happiness and being selfish. I feel like she wants some women in his life just to deliver his kids otherwise she wouldn't be bothered. Its a never ending saga. I honestly think, without professional help, this issue cannot be resolved. Just his realisation and confessions might make you believe there is hope. If you read between the lines, he still won't sign up to take matter into his hands. I posted some time ago and really the advice is actions speak more than words. My husband just wants me to play along like he has

Thanks everyone, so much help I really appreciate it.

silveroldie2 That's exactly what my DP does - he expects me to brush it off like it's nothing, and it really, really hurts.

ak2014 - When my DP speaks to his mum it's 9/10 a one way conversation. When I speak to my parents they're more interested in my life than telling me about theirs... I get bombarded with interest (perhaps to an over the top extent!). But I find it crushing that she never once asks how our house saving is going, if we have any holiday plans etc...all stuff I ask even my girlfriends, let alone my family! She is determined to act as though I don't exist, and my DP lets her.

I genuinely believe she has some severe mental health issues, and my DP acts SO SO differently around her, it's sickening. I know we all change our behaviour slightly depending on who we are with...but this is like a peersonality transplant. He's quieter, doesnt show me ANY affection at all when she is around, despite being lovey when we are with friends or with my family.

I just wish she was a loving mother who gave her son what he deserved -everything is always always about her.

Oh my heart breaks for these poor men with their selfish mothers. And I suppose for a woman who at 66 years of age thinks that she is a poor little old woman. I suppose she got a lot of mileage out of being poor little me long before she had any age to speak of (the hard life).

When he's married to mom - Kenneth M Adams
Toxic Parents - Susan Forward
These books study the type of unhealthy relationship your DP and his mum appear to have.
Crying because his mum fell out with an aunt on holiday, sorry that sounds very strange to me. If he does this again don't indulge him by holding his hand, tell him he is over reacting.
Sounds like he needs psychotherapy to me, read up on Freud and the odedipus complex. I think you'll find it bang on!

My MIL initially wanted me to behave just like dh - just live long enough to serve her. Her happiness is all there is. She has started to bad mouth me when she realised I'm not going to live by her rules. Read 'When he is married to mom' book by Kenneth Adams. Our situation got worse since MIL's parents died.

Also, it is easier to blame a MIL but I have started seeing that my husband is the enabler. He could put an end to all this if he wanted to. He sometimes tells me to help him get out of it but his drive is so temporary that we can never resolve it. It became my obligation (FOG) that if he was unable to do it, somehow I'm not doing the right thing. I have now snapped myself out of it. Only he can bring this change, I'm not responsible.

I have started to stand up to MIL directly and speak for myself. Going through my husband gave her the idea that I'm not strong enough and she has him under control anyways. Call her out there and then. Your partner isn't going anywhere and he won't take his mum's side if you are worried because his mum has taught him to be passive for a long time.

The current issue: Mothers day. My parents, MIL, my sister and DP often go for sunday lunch. I said at the weekend 'where shall we book for the mum's on mother's day?' to which DP said, 'my mum might not want to go out with everyone, shemight just want it to be me and her.' ...... I explained that if that was the case, not only would I not see DP all week, but we would also lose a day of our weekend together. I also asked why she wouldnt want to share the day with everyone else - he just sai d'she can be funny like that and it's her day.'

If he is telling you this you can bet your life this has already been discussed.

OP
Is "Emotional Incest" a helpful term for this situation?

Also, I am genuinely curious as to why such situations at least appear to be so much more common between two women (DIL vs MIL) than two men (SIL vs FIL).

What does it say about your own insecurities?

You can't compare the reactions of your parents (a couple, together) to his lone parent (where his DF has moved on)
it sounds like he is all she has (and I'm not saying it's healthy) I think trying to split them, or being confrontational will do more harm than good.
Think seriously, do you really want the relationship? There is a lot of work that needs to be done here.
Is he a decent chap? She raised him.

He is all she has and OP is trying to split them? An adult parent (married or lone) should seek support from another adult, not their child. Sounds like PP has not been there where you come second in your partner's life.

From what I read the OP has tried to win the MIL over but has only received snubs. It sounds like this young man's mother will not be content sharing him with any other woman. In the end the OP can go on and find someone who doesn't have such an unpleasant mother or if they do, keeps a healthy distance from her, I think it is the son who I feel most sorry for here.

If things are this bad now it will be much much worse if you have children.
She clearly thinks she owns him along with his backbone.

It's weird how supporting the "sisterhood" seems to go out of the window when it comes to DIL vs MIL relationships. The fact that OP characterises the situation as "emotional incest" suggests, at some level she sees the MIL as a (potential) sexual rival. Let's all sit back and watch the stereotypical cat - fight ensue.

My, haven't we made progress!

Does your DP know this is how you view his relationship with his mother?

PP I don't really know what you mean?

I suspected it might be something along those lines - hence coming to MN for guidance?

Do you think the behaviour described in the original post is reasonable and ok? If so, I am more than willing to hear you out.

rationaloptimist - emotional incest is sometimes used in a clinical sense. The wiki article is here Another article is here It is concerned with inappropriate emotional connections between parent and child.

It is not confined to MIL/DIL dynamic. My mother inflicted it on me. My life improved dramatically when she died.

My take is that people are people and sometimes people are not good people. You are lucky if you have never come across this.

Rational, try reading the thread you are talking out of your ass.

The OP has put up with a lot of shit from her MIL who clearly does see her as a rival for her son's affections hence the emotional incest tag is very justified.

This is not a feminist issue it is just a case of one adult treating another like shit.

Now if you have no constructive comments to make please take your bile elsewhere.

You have mentioned your own insecurities earlier on the thread and I get the feeling you might be underplaying this and seeing MIL as a threat / rival. You chose to use the phrase emotional incest. I think that says more about how you view his mum (as an OW).

Why?

What exactly does "emotional incest" even mean???

If you were secure in yourself and your relationship, this wouldn't even be an issue. You admitted earlier that you are used to being the centre of attention and (in your own words) "a bit of a brat".

Why on earth do you view her as rival?She's his mum. You're his partner.

So she's not nice. Talk to her like a grown up! Tell her what you will won't put up with. But don't read more into it than an obviously lonely woman who relies (too heavily) on one blood relative. That might be you one day. I don't think you would appreciate being accused of "emotional incest" if someone else saw you as close to a relationship.

Parents aren't perfect and won't be around for ever. Keep things in perspective. Or leave. Your choice.

rational - thanks for your response.

I wasn't sure what emotional incest meant as a definition when I started the thread...it is something that I thought MAY apply (and if i amhonest, i thinkit definitely does after reading the responses here).

I am not secure in the relationship because my DP allows his mother to speak badly of me/takes his mum's opinion/desires on the relationships as a priority over mine. Yes, that makes me feel insecure, hence the original post.

I am not 'used to being the centre of attention.' I am used to MY PARENTS making methe centre of their lives, rather than pouring their emotional problems on to me... please read what is written rather than twisting it.

No, I will never be like that. I am a kind and sensitive person, (too much so!), and would never not thank someone for a gift, or speak badly of my son or daughter's partner who they loved. Because I have been brought up not to behave like that. She is lonely beacuse she falls out with her friends.... I hope to have friends at the age of 65.

I feel that perhaps you have your own issues that make you so defensive on this topic. I see that I may need some perspective on it, but I doubt that it's just as simple as 'her being lonely and dependant' - it seems to me (and most othe rposters) that it is something more inappropraite than that.

I disagree with you therefore I'm defensive?