You are not responsible for the rape or sexual assault you endured

[differentnameforthis]

In light of many threads about Ched Evans' & his victim & in light of those who believe she could have prevented it by being sober (!), I thought it was important to raise this issue.

It doesn't matter if you were drunk
It doesn't matter if you were alone
It doesn't matter if you got into a taxi/car/train/bus with him
It doesn't matter if you went to a room with him
It doesn't matter if you knew him
It doesn't matter if you didn't know him
It doesn't matter if you started to have sex with him & said no
It doesn't matter if you had sex with him an hour/a day/a week before
It doesn't matter if you had sex with his friend
It doesn't matter what you were wearing

YOU ARE IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RAPE/SEXUAL ASSAULT YOU ENDURED.

We believe you

Thank-you Thistledew. Appreciate you taking the time to respond to me. That really helps me. I am kind of aware that 34 years on I am a different person and would respond so differently now. Yes, you are right. I am perhaps viewing the situation as a 45 year old not as an 11 year old. Thank-you xx

Thank you for this thread OP
I agree 100%

I have done many of the things usually advised against
Especially getting drunk, walking home alone, flirting with strangers whilst inebriated.
Nothing bad ever happened to me those times

The 2 times I was sexually assaulted I was stone cold sober, at work or on my way home from work, wearing everyday clothes and it was by men known to me and in positions of power over me:

The landlord of a pub I was working in who offered a lift home after a shift as it was snowing
And a man whose business I was doing work experience in

I did not report either of them (it was very long ago, I absolutely would now)
Most of the reason was that I automatically blamed myself for 'putting myself in danger' by accepting the lift home or being alone in an office with the guy. Somehow I worried that I had unconsciously given off some signal that I would welcome this
I was certain I would be blamed and shamed if I disclosed these events. It would be proven to be some 'misunderstanding', no-one would believe me
I never disclosed and actually it haunts me now that perhaps these guys did worse to other women.

Why did I think all those things in my late teens and early 20s?
Why was I so convinced that I was to blame and not them?
No-one explicitly told me so but I must have absorbed the message that this stuff doesn't happen to naice girls.
That it was my responsibility to protect myself and I failed.
If we give out all this advice with the best of intentions all it does is increase victims sense of failure when it happens anyway.

I will be giving my daughter (and my son) the same sensible general crime prevention, keeping safe advice but most of all I want them to be confident that when they say no it must be respected whatever the circumstance.

I'm sure it's not always the case but both the men who assaulted me had done some lower level unpleasant stuff eg brushing up against me, stroking my neck before they got me alone and went for the full on groping. I remember being confused and trying to dismiss these acts as accidents or cultural misunderstanding. I wish I'd had the confidence to publicly humiliate them at that stage by yelling no, get off me and I hope to I instil the confidence in my kids to do that.

Yy Trapper, I thought so too.

I am quite shocked by the attitudes on this thread.

I genuine didn't imagine people could read the title and think "I need to go into that thread and disagree with the sentiment."

I was raped once and experienced an attempted rape once. I'm nearly 40.

In my adult life, I have been drunk many times; 'inappropriately dressed' many times; shared a bed with many men (some of whom I'd previously had sex with, others, I hadn't ever had sex with and never intended to); been alone with men I knew well and not so well; returned home alone after dark; walked in public places after dark; used a secluded park as a short cut home and many more (included accepting a lift from a stranger in exceptional circumstances).

If a woman's decisions were responsible for her being raped, then why have I experienced so little of it. Surely I've been 'asking for it' more than once...

The answer is that I've only ever been in the presence of two rapists.

Last weekend, I shared a bed with a male friend. We hugged and fell asleep in each other's arms. He didn't rape me. That's because of his behaviour, not mine.

I am just at some of the views on this thread and how some people still victim blame, no one is ever to blame for their own rape or assault.

Last weekend I went out, first time in a long time, I got very drunk, I met a man whilst out and at the end of the night I decided to walk home alone, he realised and said he would walk me home. Guess what happened ..... Nothing, he walked me home made sure I got in safely and went on his way. I don't remember his name I most likely won't ever see him again, that man was not a rapist and that is the only reason he didn't rape me. If he had raped me would it have been my fault, no not ever, I have the right to walk home at night and not get attacked but you can bet your life if I had been raped there would have been some people like on this thread who would have said if I hadn't done xyz I wouldn't have been raped and therefore they victim blaming.

My daughter is 12 and I had this conversation with her the other day and I made it clear that no matter what she does / any woman does they cannot prevent and would never be to blame for being raped/attacked. That is the only message she needs to hear.

My son will be told that he must get explicit consent and that if he comes across a woman who is drunk and vulnerable the only thing he should be doing is making sure she gets home safely as not everyone would do that.

I mean I hate to be so obvious but this is precisely why we have a problem. Because people don't think what the OP does.

I was very angry and upset last night by those comments. But it really is nothing new, so this morning I'm quite calm about it all which is wrong of course.

When I was in Amsterdam with my best friend last year he insisted on following me home to my hostel every night. I got a bit annoyed with this and told him to stop but he did it anyway, from a distance. Now I'm glad he did and although he was a bastard in other ways he was very sensible and thoughtful to do so. Shouldn't bloody be necessary.

I just don't understand how some people can just not grasp the concept that it's doesn't matter if you are drunk or what you wear or how you behave the one and only reason you will be raped is because you are in the presence of a rapist.

How they cannot grasp that you are much more likely to be raped by someone you know then a stranger, that the victim blaming dressed up as 'advise ' or 'keeping yourself safe' makes NO difference it will not change the fact that if you are in the presence of a rapist NOTHING you will or can do will prevent you being raped, if they decide that's what they are going to do they will do it.

I can only assume that people spout this crap because it makes them feel better to think there is something they can do to prevent rape, it's a false sense of security.

The only way we as a society will ever prevent rape is to see it for what it is, accept that the only person responsible is the rapist and make sure they are punished to the full extent of the law.
This will never happen all the time people delude themselves and their daughters that they can change their behaviour to prevent rape because you can't you just can't.

OP here, have quite a bit to say...

Additionally, it reinforces an idea that women are prey which is just wrong on so many levels.

YES YES YES!!! That is exactly it...that we are perpetual prey & it is up to us to camouflage ourselves against the tiger, as we all know that tigers must hunt to satisfy their urges & cannot control themselves.

I really think the only way they would be satisfied is if all men were castrated at birth. Who has said that? No one, because we do not believe it. We know full well that not all men rape.

And OP it was very sweet of you to start it and I appreciate your message. I'm too tired, and too sick of absolute SHIT like this to make the effort myself tonight, apologies, so you get a rant instead. You are welcome, I am so sorry for what happened to you & know, please...it was not your fault. I really didn't post this to be a bun fight, I was hoping to offer support, to reassure. It does go to show that it is an invaluable message though!

I'm sick of it too...and someone needs to fight it & along with some very wise & sensible MNers (you all know who you are, thank you), I will continue to do it! So you know, and others know that we don't blame any of you!

Those looking to rape pick their targets by going for the easiest they can get away with. So if you look 'easy', you get raped & that's your fault for looking like an easy 'target'. More victim blaming bollocks!

You attack me because I do not totally agree with you NONE of us agree with you, doesn't that tell you anything?

I also want a world where I can walk home drunk after a few pints to many and not worry about being attacked but right now I know that isn't the world we live in. It is, really. Because so few men are rapists & stranger rape accounts for less than 10% of rapes. You are statistically safer walking home drunk, than you are at home/with a male friend/married

Whereas domestic abuse against women is always (or 99% of the time) taken seriously from the get go. It isn't, actually...that's the one other area where the victim is blamed 'why doesn't she leave' 'what did you do to annoy him' 'you should not upset him' 'don't make him angry' 'why did you take him back'

So I strongly disagree.

And I have never seen DV against men as a laughing matter.

So if I was a woman, knew that rapists were out there, I'd be thankful for little tips on what I could do to avoid placing myself in a vulnerable position where I might be a victim One tip...don't meet a rapist.

Victim blaming is nothing short of literally telling the victim "You are at fault for being raped, not the perpetrator". Not so.

'why were you so drunk'
'why did you wear that'
'why did you not use a cab'
'why didn't you go out with a friend'
'why did you go to a room with him'
'why did you let him buy you a drink'
'why did you have sex with the night before'
'why did you share his bed if you didn't want sex' (used on here as a way to highlight how women should 'stay safe')
'if they hadn't lied about where they were' (used on another thread to victim blame a 15yr old for her rape)
'if they hadn't gone home with the men' (used on another thread to victim blame a 15yr old for her rape)

Finding fault in a victims behaviour is VICTIM BLAMING!!!

Verisimilitude Thank you for sharing. I am so sorry for what you suffered & are still suffering.

Genesgirl Stop blaming yourself. It was NOT your fault.

I thought the OP was so obvious that it barely needed saying. I am shocked at how wrong I am. I didn't for one minute think it would go like this. How wrong was I too? I am so sad for all those who have disclosed here & had to read this rubbish. I wanted to support, to help. I guess the rape apologists just couldn't walk on by. Any opportunity to blame a victim of rape, so they themselves can feel better about themselves. Because you know...

If I don't get drunk...
If I don't walk alone...
If I don't get into a taxi/car/train/bus with him...
If I don't go into a room with him...
If I don't know him...
If I don't start to have sex with him & say no...
If I don't have sex with him consensually...
If I don't have sex with his friend...
If I am careful what I am wearing...

...I won't get raped. WRONG. It suits some of us to blame others for their rapes because we need to believe that it will never be us.

Thanks for reading.

I hope Humblepie feels thoroughly ashamed of her first post (and some others), because it really was shameful

Most certainly not.. My posts are reasonable and sensible. They do not attack anyone personally.

Some of you should read and learn.

It suits some of us to blame others for their rapes because we need to believe that it will never be us
Incorrect. Missing the point, deliberately.
Promoting the view that you can do anything you like and still be safe is misleading. People should stop doing it.

Read and learn what Humble? That there are "consequences of our actions" to quote your own words? That the consequences for not following your rules is that men rape us? That if we don't behave a certain way we have to expect rape as an obvious consequence? That it would be better for us not to get into bed with men, than for men to stop raping?

No thanks.

"Promoting the view that you can do anything you like and still be safe is misleading."

Yes, Humble. Men can do anything they like, up to and including raping women. Women on the other hand must follow the rules. They must not go out and have fun. They must be afraid.

You're the one missing the point, Humble. The point has never been that you should be able to do what you want and be safe. The point is that you might as well go out and do what you like, because you're not safe no matter what precautions you take.

i didn't think for one minute it would go like this

No, neither did I. But it shows how much this debate is still needed, as awful as that is, so thanks for starting it differentname

Humble, I am rarely directly rude to people, I'm more of a sarky type, but you are simply talking shit.

differentnameforthis I am a bit worried if you genuinely see the following two quotes as victim blaming

'if they hadn't lied about where they were' (used on another thread to victim blame a 15yr old for her rape)
'if they hadn't gone home with the men' (used on another thread to victim blame a 15yr old for her rape)

When someone tragic happens there is always a tendency to go over the chain of events that lead to it and discuss the road not taken. Maybe if this hand't happened then the tragedy wouldn't have happened, maybe if this person did this or the other person did something else, nothing bad would have happened. That's clearly what is being said here. Pointing out that if the 15 year old girl hadn't lied about where she was/gone home with a man, the rape might not have happened (of course it still might have even if she did do those things). As it always has and always will, the one person to blame for the rape is the person who raped, do you disagree?

Aduaz, can you genuinely not see that if you say to someone "if you hadn't done this it wouldn't have happened" you are basically saying "your actions led to this happening"? That is blaming, you are finding causes of the incident, one of which, you are saying, is the girl's own actions.

If the rapist hadn't been there, she wouldn't have been raped, simple as that.

This was not some accident. A person deliberately and intentionally set out to hurt her. She did not cause that, in any way.

But Aduaz, why is sexual assault the only crime where we tend to do this? Or it's the first question to pass our lips? Why did you go there? Why did you drink anything? Why did you wear that? Why did you let yourself be alone with him?

If struck by a meteorite while out walking, the first questioned asked of you would not be "but why were you out walking in the first place? Did you really need to take that journey? If you'd taken the other route this would never have happened".

Why is nobody asking the men who raped the 15yo why they thought they were entitled to her body? Why is nobody asking them why they took these girls home if they felt they would be unable to control their sexual urges? Why is the behaviour of the rapist the last thing anyone cares about in these cases?

Completely agree with OP

I can remember lying when I was 16 to my father. It was quite late at night, and I had to buy tampons (wouldn't have time to go to shop in morning because of school). If if I'd said I was going to the 24 hour shop 10 mins away he'd have offered to go for me .
I told him I was going to have a quick cuppa with mate who lived up the street, as she was upset with her bf.

So if I'd been raped on the way to shop, it could have been my own fault because I lied about where I was "officer I thought she was safe in her friends house, look out the window, that one".

What shite.

cailindana, no you aren't.

AnnieLobeseder don't compare being struck with a meteorite with rape because as far as I know there's never been a documented case of it. I'll substitute it with an assault which we do have plenty documented cases of and are more comparable to rape than a meteorite hit. Believe it or not if I was assaulted regardless of the circumstances I would be thinking "well maybe if I had walked home a different way I wouldn't have been attacked" or "maybe if I did this differently". That's not victim blaming, it's wondering about the road not taken. Victim blaming would be to say "You walked home on your own Aduaz so you deserved to be attacked".

wickedlazy of course it wouldn't have been your fault. Anyone who did say it was your fault would be ignorant. I think the point about "if she hadn't lied about where she was going" is just pointing out it's a risky thing to do to lie to your parents about where you are going. I wouldn't say it's wrong but it could be dangerous. Think about this - If something bad does happen to you, the first person to notice your disappearance will be searching for you in completely the wrong place. If the police get involved they would be looking at your mate, her family, her friends, the route to her house, all of which would be wasting valuable time they could be looking for you along the route you actually took. I don't think there is a person who hasn't fibbed to their parents at some point or another and I wouldn't say it's wrong but you have to balance it against the potential danger you will be in if something bad happens and the first people to look for you are looking in completely the wrong place.