oogling young girls

[typingtoofast]

Myself and my partner have decided to give it another try. He is convinced im the woman for him and has apologised for his regular selfish episodes where I have to explain to him that his behaviour is not condusive to a healthy relationship. Ultimately he's selfish. But he has improved and I have seen a loving, attentive and kind man. I was beginning to think that this was a great new start for our relationship and was glad to give it another shot as had missed him when I decided to end it. The break gave me and him perspective and what was important to us both. All that aside.
We were out today in town and a group of young girls (16yr olds I'd say)were obviously heading off on a halloween party night. I had mentioned how inappropriate I thought the outfits were as they were extreamely revealing. You get the picture. In my mind I'm also thinking how they will catch their death of cold!
He views the girls and says they're out for a good night and laughs. He almost snapped his neck gawping. Now nobody could help it as the outfits as i said were ott. But then he replies they'll be teasing the boys later in the nightclub. I reply yes and that's just wrong.
I have in hay days worn revealing outfits and I replied that I wasn't necessarily looking for sex I was I suppose just rebelling and trying to be adult like.
He replied but kids these days are having sex younger, just look at them,look at the one in the tiny outfit. She'll be having sex tonight with the way she's carrying on.
I told him that's enough, that he looked like a sleezy man oogling.
He replied oh to be back that age again. I'd love to meet her out. Imagine the fun.
I was appalled by two things. One him visioning and two saying it in front of me.
Is this normal? I was disgusted and chose to say nothing for the rest of the evening. But then I think what if middle aged men say these things in their head. He's stupid/honest enough to say it out to me.
Now I'm thinking I am with a sleezy middle aged man and worries me that he would think like that.

Note that in the NY video no member of your half of the population intervened or said anything to the men making the comments, would that be because (a) they didn't see anything wrong with what was happening and possibly would do the same themselves (b) just don't care, or, (c) their own survival instinct kicked in and they were too scared for their own safety.

'Your half' makes it sound awfully like men are responsible for how other men behave. But anyway, my reason would be that there's not an awful lot you can say to someone who calls out "Hey beautiful" to a random woman on a street. Unless you have some sort of authority over the person, saying something wouldn't make the blindest bit of difference. And would it really make the woman in question feel safer, if someone starts making a scene like that on her behalf?

There was a discussion on radio 4 last night about the video, and they had two women on, one of whom thought there was nothing wrong with all the catcalls, and it is just men trying to make a first approach, so what's wrong with it. It is not just men who have to be convinced that this sort of behaviour is wrong.

Everyone knows that every man has the potential to be a threat to women. That is a fact that does not need to be disguised.

Every woman could potentially be a threat to a man as well. There's no point trying to limit it to just one sex.

If he was walking down a dark, quiet street on his own, he would cross the road rather than walk behind a woman because he is aware that just being there could frighten her.

I've done this in the past even though I didn't think I should be. Even if I was someone sinister just doing this to get the woman to lower her guard I could easily fall back a bit and keep following her I wonder if there is much point to it.

If I could give my own opinion on what you call victim blaming, a lot of the time it really isn't victim blaming but common sense. I'd love to love in a world where women can do what they like, wear what they like, get as drunk as they like and never need to worry about getting nasty comments, or being attacked. If people as a species get to that point then I will be really proud but at the moment the human race is far from perfect and we do live in a world where rapists like to pick on drunk girls and girls on their own walking home in secluded areas. Doing this things increases your chances that you might be raped. You're absolutely right, you should have the freedom to do these things without worrying but the world we live in quite simply you don't because there's bad people out there who might take advantage of you if you do. It's up to people whether they want to take steps that might make it a bit less likely they'll get attacked. The blame, as always, falls entirely on the offender.

I shouldn't need to lock my door at night before going to bed and it certainly isn't passing the blame from the criminal to the victim if someone robs my house - They are still to blame for the crime. But I know that locking my door lowers the chances of my house being robbed. I shouldn't have to do that - the burglars should be taught not to rob people. But the world we live in is one where there are people who will commit crimes. Until we eliminate all crime that's the reality we are faced with.

MNers Please don't be disheartened that there are so many men on this thread. It's engagement in a really important subject.

And what about an option (d) which is that women get offended when a man tries to "help" them and they don't need it. See this thread for example.

What thread, this thread? As in, the one we are posting on now?

Are there men trying to help women? I thought it was the men who were unaware of the extent of the problem, finding out, through some of these comments that, yes, your mothers, sisters and daughters are very likely to have been sexually touched or intimidated.

I thought we were all talking about working towards educating ourselves, our friends and family about how this affects everyone, men as well as women but mostly how we can work towards changing attitudes.

Are we not? Are we just arguing about who has it worse?

we do live in a world where rapists like to pick on drunk girls and girls on their own walking home in secluded areas. Doing this things increases your chances that you might be raped

That's not true actually Aduaz.

Fairenuff

You have all helped me. I think I will say thank you and leave, I have some thinking to do and I think I would like a name change to mark that I have changed my opinions

they had two women on, one of whom thought there was nothing wrong with all the catcalls, and it is just men trying to make a first approach, so what's wrong with it. It is not just men who have to be convinced that this sort of behaviour is wrong

It's also a myth that it's only men who perpetuate these sexist ideas. Remember, it starts in the cradle so women are also being raised with these ideas. Their protective fathers telling them they can't go out in a short skirt, etc. They mean well, I understand that, but because it is so ingrained in society, it's true that many women also share these absurd ideas. It's not until you stop to think about it that many people realise that, which is why it's so hard to change these attitudes.

dadwood change names, by all means, but don't feel that you have to. Changing opinion is good. It means that you have an open mind and the intelligence to think through new ideas. Loads of us have done that through hanging out on mn, it's a bloody education I tells ya

what'scomingoverthehill, I was parroting back the 'one half of the population' rhetoric that twindad used.

I was also merely pointing out that no-one else in the video made any comment or challenge to the behaviour that was going on around them, yet twindad seems adamant that person on the receiving end had a duty to challenge it, irrespective of the potential cost to her safety.

If you are with another man, and several of the shouters in the video were either sitting or standing with other men, he shouts out "hey beautiful" at a woman walking past why would it create a scene detrimental to the woman who is now several steps down the street for you to challenge the man in question as to why he feels entitled to shout that out?

emotionsecho I didn't really have a problem with all the people saying "hey beautiful" in the video but there was one noticeable thing that annoyed me. Can't remember where in the video but at one point a man says something like "Hey I just said you look nice, you should be more grateful", as if by saying she looked nice, she was automatically obliged to be grateful to him when she isn't.

Twindad,, do you think you are "helping women" on this thread

I know HH, I was clicking on the word 'this' thinking it was a link to the thread he was talking about, then I realised what he meant

I was a little

Of course he is helping us. How else would we know the best way to handle the situations we have described? I mean, by giving us the male view and pointing out a better way of dealing with the harassment, how could that be anything other than helpful? He obviously has a far better insight into what it is like to be a women in this society than the women on this thread.

And we go getting upset about it. the poor misunderstood things

"Twindad,, do you think you are "helping women" on this thread"
Of course not, but i was referring to the cartoons that would posted earlier about righteous man and how he was here to help people whether they wanted it or not or whatever it said. I wasn't aware of any men on this thread who were even attempting to "help" women, but nonetheless that seems to be how it was interpreted and they got a fair old slagging for it. What is it you call it "mansplaining" or something ?

"Are there men trying to help women? I thought it was the men who were unaware of the extent of the problem, finding out, through some of these comments that, yes, your mothers, sisters and daughters are very likely to have been sexually touched or intimidated."

I dunno - what i'm getting from this thread is that women are suspicious of all men because "you never know" which i admitted earlier i found vaguely irritating and sexist and a bit depressing since i see no way that this will every change given no amount of education will make 0 men incapable of assaulting a woman. As stated earlier you wouldn't generally get away with this tarring of the whole attitude toward such a broad group of humanity without attracting some sort of "ism" being stuck on it. But i can understand it, no question.

It seems like men often behave in a sociopathic way around women (when the women is not with a man) - I don't believe that sociopathic men who are prepared to grope women on a bus can be educated out of it by men or women, it sounds like it is not a good idea or worth the bother to challenge it and so it sounds like the solution is for women to be chaperoned

should read "given no amount of education will make men incapable" not sure where the 0 came from

what i'm getting from this thread is that women are suspicious of all men because "you never know" which i admitted earlier i found vaguely irritating and sexist and a bit depressing

Well, yes, that's the point isn't it. It is sexist. Against men and women. And it is depressing.

But it can change. We need to change the view of the whole of society so that is not 'the norm' to treat women like this.

We are not talking about sociopathic men, did you not read all the accounts. These are ordinary people, family friends, employers, strangers on streets, young boys who think they can touch girls, they are everywhere, because society allows us to think that it's what women want. It's not what women want, it's what men want.

Hmm. I wouldn't dignify these men's behaviour with such a specific and clinically-grounded term as sociopathic.

These men are not sociopaths; they simply do not have proper respect for women, their bodies and their right not to be molested and intimidated. So my view is that they can in theory be re-educated (but it's difficult to teach an old dog new tricks so we shouldn't be surprised if they do not change). If they don't change and continue to contravene, that is where the criminal law comes in.

There is then the separate issue of whether women should challenge and report so that the criminal law can do its work. And for the many, many reasons given on this thread by many, many women, there are no straightforward answers to that question. Of course challenging and reporting would happen in a perfect world; but we don't live in one.

I suppose that reporting might happen more often if women had confidence that the men they were reporting it to were going respond appropriately.

Because, and here's the killer punchline to the joke, the people we rely on to take us seriously and seek justice on our behalf, were brought up in the same society that taught these other men that women aren't as important as men in the first place.

And so we find ourselves back at square one.

FolkGirl - it's even worse than that. Look at the terrible stories recently come to light of how those in authority (including those involved in the criminal justice system) failed victims - often the youngest and most vulnerable in our society. The politicians are (still) arguing today about who should head up an inquiry into the whole sorry and disgusting business.

So those in authority were not only brought up in the same society, they historically have not been able to be relied upon or trusted to ensure that justice was done and that victims were listened to and the crimes perpetrated against them properly dealt with.

Sorry, I know that's going wider than just the issue we are discussing here, but it's part of the same underlying problem. Depressing.

Twindad - without wishing to repeat myself, some of the commentary on the Schrodingers Rapist analysis explains it very well. At the moment that a man speaks to a woman, she doesn't know if he is a nice guy looking for a social dialogue or a nasty bastard who is a physical and mental threat to her. But, in the context that she and her friends will have experienced unpleasant and intimidating male behaviour in the past, her response is informed by the risk that she is facing a potential rapist as much as the pleasant opportunity of a nice guy. And everyone, male or female, seeks to protect themselves from harm in what they perceive to be risky situations.

It's a shitty situation for the whole of society, not just women.

Perhaps this is where evolution could help. If as women, we try to have children with respectful decent men, then over time natural selection will reduce the numbers of entitled abusive ones.

Sometimes as women, we are our own worst enemies.

Wallbox given that a lot of men dont show signs of abuse until the woman is pregnant we would need the psychic and premonition powers of Doris Stokes.

Totally agree Darkesteyes It isn't an exact science.

Again wallbox that puts the onus on women to solve a problem not created by women.

pompodd: What are you going to "challenge" and "Report"? A man's inner thoughts and feelings? The fact that he expresses his thoughts and feelings honestly to his wife ? Last time I checked, looking or desiring is not criminal .... only acting upon desires can sometimes enter that realm (of sexual harassment, etc)