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Original poster

oogling young girls

804 replies

typingtoofast · 25/10/2014 22:08

Myself and my partner have decided to give it another try. He is convinced im the woman for him and has apologised for his regular selfish episodes where I have to explain to him that his behaviour is not condusive to a healthy relationship. Ultimately he's selfish. But he has improved and I have seen a loving, attentive and kind man. I was beginning to think that this was a great new start for our relationship and was glad to give it another shot as had missed him when I decided to end it. The break gave me and him perspective and what was important to us both. All that aside.
We were out today in town and a group of young girls (16yr olds I'd say)were obviously heading off on a halloween party night. I had mentioned how inappropriate I thought the outfits were as they were extreamely revealing. You get the picture. In my mind I'm also thinking how they will catch their death of cold!
He views the girls and says they're out for a good night and laughs. He almost snapped his neck gawping. Now nobody could help it as the outfits as i said were ott. But then he replies they'll be teasing the boys later in the nightclub. I reply yes and that's just wrong.
I have in hay days worn revealing outfits and I replied that I wasn't necessarily looking for sex I was I suppose just rebelling and trying to be adult like.
He replied but kids these days are having sex younger, just look at them,look at the one in the tiny outfit. She'll be having sex tonight with the way she's carrying on.
I told him that's enough, that he looked like a sleezy man oogling.
He replied oh to be back that age again. I'd love to meet her out. Imagine the fun.
I was appalled by two things. One him visioning and two saying it in front of me.
Is this normal? I was disgusted and chose to say nothing for the rest of the evening. But then I think what if middle aged men say these things in their head. He's stupid/honest enough to say it out to me.
Now I'm thinking I am with a sleezy middle aged man and worries me that he would think like that.

OP posts:
Keepithidden · 31/10/2014 10:30

I can kind of see Twindad's point really. Fairienuff's DH does what I do, but it doesn't stop me getting frustrated that this is the way things are. There shouldn't be a reason for women to be wary of men, and behaving like this almost legitimises it, i.e. accounting for that wariness and taking steps to reduce or remove it, is demonstrating an acceptance of something that no one (male or female) should accept.

That's not to say it isn't the 'right' thing to do, it's more an expression of anger at the situation the patriarchy has created in society.

Keepithidden · 31/10/2014 10:36

Also, I don't think that sexism/common sense in this scenario are too far apart. The choice to cross the road is based on the gender of the person in front, therefore the choice is sexist (but not necessarily a bad thing). It is also common sense, or at least empathy which I would argue is to be encouraged.

It is difficult not to take it personally, because the default assumption is that a male is going to be a threat. Fine as far as class analysis is concerned, but in this example it makes it personal. Literally. Which is a struggle for most people to accept.

Of course, none of this is to diminish the obviously far greater impact it all has on women compared to men.

Twinklestein · 31/10/2014 10:41

Ffs not the old sexism line. You've lost me now twindad and you did have my sympathy.

Is it really news to you that women have a natural, conditioned wariness of male strangers?

If you read the comments on the Guardian website underneath the articles on the NY film linked above, you will see plenty of men simply don't believe it's wrong. They see attention as 'compliments' and say they have a right to talk to women on the street if they want to, that it's a normal part of 'mating', and that they'd love to be approached by women themselves. They don't get the fact that this attention is not only unwanted but intimidating, they don't get the sense of threat, they don't get the power game. They don't get the fact that a man targeting you with attention simply because he wants sex is not a compliment.

That is where education can make a big difference.

twindad76 · 31/10/2014 10:41

Well because dogs are animals and act on instinct are not held accountable for their actions and you are taught not to torment them because if you do and the dog bites you it's your fault or it's the owners etc etc, therefore it's a poor comparison in the context of victim blaming.

I'm not sure what I'm being asked to come up with a solution for ?

Twinklestein · 31/10/2014 10:45

Children are taught the be wary of adult strangers in general, I don't take that personally, I'd much rather they were wary than unsafe.

FolkGirl · 31/10/2014 10:52

keepithidden I agree with you.

It's why it's a situation that is damaging to all of us, not just women. I don't want women to be scared of my son!

We have discussions on this subject quite often and, sadly, I do have to challenge some awful misconceptions on his part. These are not misconceptions he's got from home, but from the media and, presumably, school. I know he's taken these ideas back to school because he's told me the responses.

We can change this, one boy at a time. And justice was right. Men need to challenge this behaviour in other men, rather than joining in or ignoring it.

Fairenuff · 31/10/2014 11:07

If there was a world where women could walk freely, wearing what they want, go about their business without being intimidated by men, then they wouldn't view men as a potential threat. Therefore, it is men themselves who are creating the sexism.

Women alone can't change this, men need challenge sexist attitudes too. And by that I mean sexism towards women.

Porn is one of the worst aspects of this and it is commonplace, freely available on any phone to anyone who wants to access it. We need to educate our sons and daughters to actively refuse it. To look beyond the sexual objectification and see human beings and the impact it has on all of us.

dadwood · 31/10/2014 11:13

Fairenuff In addition to the problem of porn is advertising. I watched a number of adverts on TV yesterday and noticed how very attractive and young women are used to sell everything, the product being desirable by association with the woman's appearance.

Fairenuff · 31/10/2014 11:19

Yep, advertising, the music industry is absolutely rife with it. It's everywhere.

twindad76 · 31/10/2014 11:34

Has anyone watched that crap gameshow with Jasper Carrot on daytime TV ? They have a beautiful woman who comes on just to shuffle the balls around, then she goes off and plays no further role, a classic example of "eye candy". No doubt that was something that a male executive came up with, but the women are not just hapless victims, presumably they see it as OK. I'm not going to defend porn because the availability of it scares me as well, but women take naked selfies of themselves and post them on websites for mens enjoyment, no one forces them into it and they don't get paid for it, a quick glance at reddit tells you this. So i don't think you can say that all porn is exploitative although for sure most of it is. How would you educate women not to be "eye candy" ?

Fairenuff · 31/10/2014 11:35

It starts at birth twindad.

MyEmpireOfDirt · 31/10/2014 11:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FolkGirl · 31/10/2014 11:59

It does start at birth.

We grow up in it. It's very insidious. We have to be taught to say "please" and "thank you". But we don't have to be taught our roles as men and women. It's there from the start in the fairytales we read to our children, the way our parents interact with each other and other people. We assimilate it, we absorb it.

twindad my exH and I didn't have very traditional roles in the home at all. I did all the diy and was the main driver, whilst he did most of the cooking. I wasn't focused on my appearance...

Yet my 3 yo son said to him one day when he helped me to do something, "you're a hero". When I asked him what I was, he said, "mummy, you're just beautiful"

My daughter is 8. It's clear she already understands her role as a fledgeling woman in our society. As much as I control what she is exposed to media wise. Because she isn't immune to the effect of the responses she elicits from other people, simply by being a girl.

It is already there.

FolkGirl · 31/10/2014 12:04

As much as I control what she is exposed to media wise

By which I mean she is only allowed to watch age appropriate TV and films, and I censor those because I find the portrayal of girls in many wholly inappropriate!

FolkGirl · 31/10/2014 12:06

I think the most outrageous thing I ever heard was from my exMIL when my daughter was about 2:

"she's so beautiful, she could marry a footballer"

Oh the RAGE!!! Wink

Fairenuff · 31/10/2014 12:17

Dd and I call it when we see it. She is very aware, having studied feminism as part of the English literature A Level. I think it's been a fantastic education in that respect.

emotionsecho · 31/10/2014 13:10

twindad Projecting your fears and prejudices onto half the population (however informed by experience) I disagree with this statement but if it is what you believe take it up with the half of the population who are causing it not the half who are trying to negotiate a safe way to live with it.

Note that in the NY video no member of your half of the population intervened or said anything to the men making the comments, would that be because (a) they didn't see anything wrong with what was happening and possibly would do the same themselves (b) just don't care, or, (c) their own survival instinct kicked in and they were too scared for their own safety.

Also you still haven't said if you think the woman in the video should have 'stood up for herself', how she should have done this, and if you believe it would have been in her best interests to do so.

twindad76 · 31/10/2014 13:22

I disagree with this statement but if it is what you believe take it up with > the half of the population who are causing it not the half who are trying
to negotiate a safe way to live with it.

What is it about it that you disagree with ?

I think if she had told some of those men to fuck off, they would have laughed and walked away.

And what about an option (d) which is that women get offended when a man tries to "help" them and they don't need it. See this thread for example.

Vivacia · 31/10/2014 13:22

The choice to cross the road is based on the gender of the person in front, therefore the choice is sexist (but not necessarily a bad thing).

I'm not so sure. I'm aware that I can be intimidating to very old or very young children, perhaps because of how I dress or the situation. For example, meeting a child out dog-walking, I'm aware they're looking at me and thinking, "stranger". I smile and nod but I wouldn't stop to make conversation as I might with a teen or adult.

Vivacia · 31/10/2014 13:24

I think if she had...

But her experience has taught her otherwise.

And what about an option (d) which is that women get offended when a man tries to "help" them and they don't need it.

For goodness' sake.

emotionsecho · 31/10/2014 13:30

I disagree with the 'projecting' element of your statement.

Ok so she tells them to 'fuck off' and they laugh and walk away safe in the knowledge that what they were doing had the desired effect and feel free to do it again and again to other random women, great solution.

MyEmpireOfDirt · 31/10/2014 13:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

twindad76 · 31/10/2014 13:35

Men clearly cannot stop other men from being sociopaths so what is your solution ?

dadwood · 31/10/2014 13:43

twindad76

From what I understand, the MNer consensus solution is not challenge the potential sociopaths because it is dangerous.

twindad76 · 31/10/2014 13:49

yes - i agree that is the consensus. But the consensus also seems to be that it happens too frequently to bother reporting it or that it's just a waste of time.