oogling young girls

[typingtoofast]

Myself and my partner have decided to give it another try. He is convinced im the woman for him and has apologised for his regular selfish episodes where I have to explain to him that his behaviour is not condusive to a healthy relationship. Ultimately he's selfish. But he has improved and I have seen a loving, attentive and kind man. I was beginning to think that this was a great new start for our relationship and was glad to give it another shot as had missed him when I decided to end it. The break gave me and him perspective and what was important to us both. All that aside.
We were out today in town and a group of young girls (16yr olds I'd say)were obviously heading off on a halloween party night. I had mentioned how inappropriate I thought the outfits were as they were extreamely revealing. You get the picture. In my mind I'm also thinking how they will catch their death of cold!
He views the girls and says they're out for a good night and laughs. He almost snapped his neck gawping. Now nobody could help it as the outfits as i said were ott. But then he replies they'll be teasing the boys later in the nightclub. I reply yes and that's just wrong.
I have in hay days worn revealing outfits and I replied that I wasn't necessarily looking for sex I was I suppose just rebelling and trying to be adult like.
He replied but kids these days are having sex younger, just look at them,look at the one in the tiny outfit. She'll be having sex tonight with the way she's carrying on.
I told him that's enough, that he looked like a sleezy man oogling.
He replied oh to be back that age again. I'd love to meet her out. Imagine the fun.
I was appalled by two things. One him visioning and two saying it in front of me.
Is this normal? I was disgusted and chose to say nothing for the rest of the evening. But then I think what if middle aged men say these things in their head. He's stupid/honest enough to say it out to me.
Now I'm thinking I am with a sleezy middle aged man and worries me that he would think like that.

After your 'manginas' comment (which you still haven't clarified) I can't take you seriously garbanzoban. You're very determined to search for subtext on this though. Does your DP talk like this?

wallbox

Yes I can say 'exception to the rule' because most men do NOT feel entitlement over women.

are we living in the same country mate?

do you accept then that women who are dressed sexily are usually out to attract men

I couldn't possibly speak for the motivations of half the planet!

I'm not sure I would ever, or have ever "dressed sexily" according to your definition of it. Sometimes I go out and make an effort to make myself look attractive, sometimes I don't. Sometimes it's just for my own benefit, sometimes it's because I know someone I like is going to be there. Sometimes it's because when I go out with my friends, it's because I want to hear my friends tell me I look good. Sometimes it's because I want to feel confident when I walk into the pub. And yes, it is sometimes because I want to get admiring glances and maybe a smile when I make unintended eye contact with a stranger.

But it's never because I want a stranger to follow me. Or touch me and then touch me again when told I'm not interested. Or to tell the male friend I'm with that we'd better leave the small club we're in before I get raped - his mates have got their eye on me, after all. Or to call me a bitch if I say "no thanks". Or to question my sexuality insultingly if I turn them down.

It's never for those reasons.

Like I say, I can tell the difference and I imagine these other women can too.

Yes I can say 'exception to the rule' because most men do NOT feel entitlement over women

1. I'm not sure you can speak for all men any more than I can speak for all women.

2. You have made comments on here that demonstrate that, whilst you might not feel entitlement over a woman's body, you certainly find it easy enough to reject and deny what we are saying. Which isn't much better really.

This thread is so depressing. I don't think I know any women who haven't experienced some kind of harassment or abuse from men. I was thinking about it and I can think of 6 or 7 scenarios that I would be terrified for my children to go through but that I brushed off as the price of being a woman (girl really, as I was less than 18 in all of them).

In the 80s or 90s I remember my dad ranting because a Judge had implied or stated that a woman wearing a short skirt somehow contributed to her being raped (I think it was famous at the time?). I was only a child but I remember my DDad was apoplectic with rage. I vividly remember him saying it is never the victim's fault and the reason she was raped was because someone wanted to rape her.

And yet, what's changed?

Hi MNers

After following the link to the sexual assaults OP, I realise that I have been sexually assaulted, so I apologise for saying I haven't been.
I was in France in the early 90s on holiday as a teenager and sitting on a ridge at the back of a beach in the middle of the night. I was fully clothed. A French man, middle aged and drunk came and sat down beside me. and groped me and tried to kiss me over several minutes. I told him to stop and that I didn't like men (I meant sexually). He didn't until I got up and left. I assumed he was trying to pull me and just forgot about the incident. I filed it as not representative of the French or homosexuals or older men.

This is not comparable to what women have to put up with, I am only mentioning it because I have remembered it after reading the links.

You had quite a forward thinking dad, there bleeding.

I remember a few around that time. What you're describing isn't just familiar, I think it was standard for the time.

Another where a man was let off raping his daughter because his wife was pregnant, off sex and he still had 'needs'.

Dadwood I think it's an indictment of that time that so many people shrugged off experiences like that. I wish I could say I felt things were different now.

dadwood it's only 'not comparable' because it was a one off. As an incident, it's pretty comparable.

Thanks cloggal

The big difference here is that it confused me, but didn't physically scare me then or change the was I saw people after, that's why it's not comparable to women's experiences. It didn't scare me because I could have beaten him in a fight.

I was severely beaten by a gang of men once for no apparent reason, that did make me angry and scared and wary for years.

Mm, I see what you mean, dadwood. I suppose the other difference is, is that when these things happen to men, we know it's the fault of the aggressor. When they happen to women, society still asks what she did to invite it.

Thank god those disbelieving dickheads have fucked off to whatever moss covered rock they crawled under from. I thought I was going to have to start posting more memes at them .

Folkgirl Yes, that's the other difference. I did actually blame myself for not leaving straight away. Society would have blamed the aggressor though.

Zazzles They're not up yet.

I can imagine you did, dadwood

FolkGirl I thought he fancied me and I didn't want to be rude. Does that make sense?

Hence my original post

I'm not defending it, I just don't understand the subject properly, clearly.

First post on this thread I mean.

dadwood That absolutely makes sense!!

I think we've all been there. It takes a long time to get to the point when you feel angry about it. Before that, I think you do wonder what you did; what signals you were giving off; you assume they fancy you and don't want to hurt their feelings...

It's because when you're a teenager, it doesn't occur to you, really, that so many adults men are so predatory.

You were worried about hurting his feelings and offending him, he was banking on that. These men are vile. And, unfortunately, even though awareness has increased, even though children are believed more now, etc things aren't really getting any better. I think a lot of it is to do with the 'pornification' in our culture.

New discourses are emerging, but they're just as bad, if not worse.

FolkGirl why worse?

I suppose the other difference is, is that when these things happen to men, we know it's the fault of the aggressor. When they happen to women, society still asks what she did to invite it.

And if you had reported it, I doubt anyone would have blamed your clothes.

Well I wasn't going to come back to this, but has anyone seen the news reports this morning about child abuse in Greater Manchester? Widespread and minimised by victim blaming. Depressingly similar to the posts on here yesterday, in fact HHMotherFucker raised the issue on this thread.

Secondly. As I was walking to the shop yesterday eve in the dark, two young men cycled past me and shouted "pusssssssyyyyyy" right in my ear. I had two seven year old boys with me.

I'm hoping the entitled fuckwits from yesterday have fucked off to cry on their own "hypocrisy" threads and don't come back. I can't express how angry it made me that on a thread, started re victim blaming women, where other women shared their stories, men came on and started doubting, blaming and then telling us how to deal with it, oh and then could we discuss THEIR sexual harassment. Ffs. It's like the urban myth of the woman in labour and her husband complaining of the pain when he stubbed his toe on the delivery suite door.

The comments about "what did you expect him to do" and challenging men really really fucked me off particularly after I, and others, shared about violent experiences we had. Men talking to victims and survivors and then basically dismissing it.

Off the top of my head, and this isn't all by any means, I have been groped by boss at 17, slapped by an exP, verbally abused in the street numerous times, including a memorable "fat Jewish princess". !I was neither fat, not Jewish, nor a princess, by the way, not that it would matter if I was). Had a man come up to me in street and stick his hand down my top and squeeze my nipple, and before all this, when I was 14, was raped and punched in the face by a man who, when I struggled, choked me and said "stop or I'll kill you", sorry to whoever (was it twin dad), gave advice to stand up to men like this, it doesn't fucking work.

And then basicsally, to be told, it isn't widespread because it never happened to my wife and mother. Oh and can we talk about men being harassed at work? No? I'll go and start a thread called "hypocrisy".

For fucks sake. I won't say what I really want to about these men as I don't want my post deleted. How thankful I am for mumsnet and the articulate women on here talking about these issues and showing people what it's really like for females, what our reality is.

Fairenuff Is that to me? No, they would not have, it would have been a t shirt or a shirt with long arms.

You had quite a forward thinking dad, there bleeding.

Yeah, not sure where he came from really! His family and colleagues would, for the most part, have agreed with the judge unfortunately.