oogling young girls

[typingtoofast]

Myself and my partner have decided to give it another try. He is convinced im the woman for him and has apologised for his regular selfish episodes where I have to explain to him that his behaviour is not condusive to a healthy relationship. Ultimately he's selfish. But he has improved and I have seen a loving, attentive and kind man. I was beginning to think that this was a great new start for our relationship and was glad to give it another shot as had missed him when I decided to end it. The break gave me and him perspective and what was important to us both. All that aside.
We were out today in town and a group of young girls (16yr olds I'd say)were obviously heading off on a halloween party night. I had mentioned how inappropriate I thought the outfits were as they were extreamely revealing. You get the picture. In my mind I'm also thinking how they will catch their death of cold!
He views the girls and says they're out for a good night and laughs. He almost snapped his neck gawping. Now nobody could help it as the outfits as i said were ott. But then he replies they'll be teasing the boys later in the nightclub. I reply yes and that's just wrong.
I have in hay days worn revealing outfits and I replied that I wasn't necessarily looking for sex I was I suppose just rebelling and trying to be adult like.
He replied but kids these days are having sex younger, just look at them,look at the one in the tiny outfit. She'll be having sex tonight with the way she's carrying on.
I told him that's enough, that he looked like a sleezy man oogling.
He replied oh to be back that age again. I'd love to meet her out. Imagine the fun.
I was appalled by two things. One him visioning and two saying it in front of me.
Is this normal? I was disgusted and chose to say nothing for the rest of the evening. But then I think what if middle aged men say these things in their head. He's stupid/honest enough to say it out to me.
Now I'm thinking I am with a sleezy middle aged man and worries me that he would think like that.

My dh would say I've never been sexually assaulted because he doesn't know I have. Just the general, day to day stuff that women have been talking about here on this thread. It happens. Men think they can grab, touch, grope and hurt women. One tried to physically pull me on to a dance floor because I didn't want to dance with him.

And yes, telling women to confront these men, who are often a foot taller and 50 pounds heavier, is very bad advice. Usually survival instinct kicks in and if the safest thing to do is keep quiet and get out of there, then that is the best option. Most women have a good gut instinct in this respect and, thankfully, it keeps many of us safe, if not unmolested.

MyEmpireOfDirt I see that

dad but even if it had been speedos, they still wouldn't have blamed your choice of clothes.

As for why it's worse, well there's more awareness now, more emphasis on safeguarding; things that people are reporting happening at school wouldn't happen on such a widespread scale.

But...

Girls are being sexualised at an increasingly young age. And it's not for their benefit.

But boys aren't. And thinking about it, I'm not sure how we could 'sexualise' [the appearance of] boys because 'we' don't think about boys or men in that way.

Teenage girls feel under pressure to conform to the sexual norms seen in porn. And they shouldn't.

Teenage boys expect the sexual norms seen in porn. And they shouldn't.

Adults talk about children 'growing up' at younger ages. They don't they just respond to what adults are telling them they should be like. They copy, they don't create.

And the internet is also giving a voice and validation to people spouting all kinds of hate towards and about all kinds of people. Once upon a time, these people would have been sitting in their bedrooms having their own thoughts. Now, they are able to link up with other people. It gives them confidence and it gives them links to each other.

In the same way that we are using that exact same medium to share experiences and support each other; reassuring ourselves and each other that we're not alone and it wasn't our fault, these people are also joining forces. Only their motives are far more nefarious.

Morning all

We've had an awful lot of reports about posts on this thread and we've banned two users off the back of the reports.

Threads that turn into discussions about rape and assault (whether physical or verbal) can be extremely emotionally distressing for people who have experienced those things, and we'd be really grateful if all posters could remember that and try to pitch their comments appropriately.

While individual posters may think that assault is analagous to burglary or other crimes of property, it would be really helpful if they could bear in mind that when they post in this way they may - without meaning to - be giving the impression to assault survivors that there was something the survivor could or should have done to prevent her assault in the first place. We hope you'll all understand why assault survivors would find that insulting and upsetting.

Please find the time to have a look at our We Believe You page on rape myths, especially Myth 2:

MYTH: Women provoke rape by their appearance or their behaviour

REALITY: Dressing attractively, or flirting, is never an invitation to rape. Rape is not a 'crime of passion' - it is an expression of power and control.
No woman 'asks to be raped' or 'deserves what she gets' - only the rapist is responsible for the rape. Rape happens to all types of women, from the very young to the very old - physical appearance is irrelevant.

I was hoping those who urged women to confront these men, or slap them, watched the videos posted earlier. The New York woman said not a word, and was actually berated for ignoring their comments; one demanded she smile and say thank you. The Belgian woman was called a tramp and a whore when she rebuffed an advance (quite politely under the circumstances). Imagine how they might have reacted if they had been told to take a flying one, or been slapped?

Thank you Rowan.

I do think we need to think about including guidelines on misogyny, dv/rape myths, but that's not a discussion perhaps for this thread.

FolkGirl I agree with your points. I also think porn is highly damaging to society.

I've come back to this today having stomped off in a bit of a huff last night. I genuinely posted my experience as it was live in my head as a particularly notable example of misogyny in action. I thought it would demonstrate to some of the more"traditional" thinkers that the reality of sexual assault and abuse was very different to their view of bad girls getting the attention they were asking for.
I have to say that the last thing I expected was to be told my experience was invalid because a male posters Mum had never told him! I mean FFS!! We HAVE to change this because these fuckers are too stupid to realise that it is not OK.

because these fuckers are too stupid to realise that it is not OK

Yep too stupid, too unaware, too pig-shit ignorant, as described upthread. And even more ridiculous was the sheer bloody mindedness of these thick fuckwits to acknowledge what so many other posters where pointing out to them.

Yeah, yeah I know NAMALT (not all men are like that). Fucking hell, the problem is that there are so many men like that .

This thread is really shocking to me. I was aware that verbal and physical harassment/assault was common, but not to the extent shown on this thread. It does make me think about the messages we send our children, and not just our daughters (I have one of each).

I've been subject to abuse and intimidation too. Whilst I don't think it is comparable to what a lot of women face in extent (there are various instances, but thankfully relatively rare) or seriousness (there was not a sexual element involved), it comes back to the same theme of someone exerting power over someone else. Most of the time it's relatively mild stuff like a guy deliberately walking into me to try and provoke a reaction, name calling, threatening ("what you looking at?") etc. A couple of times I've been chased, and once assaulted.

I'm not posting this to say that things are just as bad for men, they're not. But people who like to try and exert power over others are fairly indiscriminate in how they spread their hate around, as long as they think the victim is vulnerable.

I'm not posting this to say that things are just as bad for men, they're not

I think you're missing the point. When you were intimidated or harrassed, did anyone ask you what you were wearing? Did you think that you could have prevented it by wearing a higher collar, or a longer sleeve?

Whatsthat - no criticism but you nailed it right there when you said " most of the time it's relatively mild.....couple of times I've been chased, and once assaulted". We're so used to this constant barrage of unwanted attention and endless intimidation and harassment that being chased a couple of times and assaulted once doesn't even count!

Can you imagine a man saying that?

Voodoobooboo, I am a man.

No Fairenuff, but they did ask why I wasn't more careful in not making eye contact with the idiot who thought that was some sort of affront.

whatsthat The biggest difference for men and women is that when a woman is attacked, in any form, people look to her to find some fault in her own conduct (e.g. what was she wearing?/how much had she drunk?/was she alone?/where was she?/what was she doing?/what could she have done to prevent it?) before they criticise the behaviour of the man who committed the crime against her, or at least at the same time. E.g. "What a bastard, but to be fair, she was..." type comments.

The implication being that, in a supposedly free country, we should have to modify our own behaviour to try and minimise the likelihood of a crime being committed against us, rather than the expectation being of men to not assault us in the first place.

I can't think of any other crime when the victim is regarded as somehow complicit. And why? Just so that men don't have to hold other men responsible for their own actions?

Whatsthat -apologies, my mistake

I don't disagree FolkGirl that there is a lot of victim blaming. And it should not be accepted. But male victims are not excused from being blamed. Have you seen the 'hazing' case in the US where the victims are being blamed for telling, and as a result the schools football season has been cancelled. There is a lot of male on male violence that is also dismissed. The reasons given are often different to abuse of women, so yes, what boys/men are wearing rarely comes into it. But some things are the same - the minimising, the 'if you hadn't been walking home alone' etc still gets thrown around.

An example from when I was at school. All boys school, but ties to a girls school and there was a joint sixth form play. At the after party they were playing spin the bottle, and one of my friends who is gay got matched with a girl so they kissed. Problem was this girl's brother was a nutcase and beat my mate up. There were a lot of people saying, "Oh what nutcase did was wrong, but my mate should have known it would piss him off, what did he expect?"

whatsthat

No, not heard of the hazing thing, and what happened to your friend was awful.

I suppose it still comes down to men making excuses for men rather than holding them accountable for their actions.

Unfortunately I think it is both men and women who make excuses. The stuff some young women come out with is shocking.

Bloke here. I don't have a problem with anyone in a relationship who looks at others as long as that's all it is. Don't think it's possible for your mind to restrict itself to only finding one person attractive. You find other men/women attractive that's fine it's not a crime. But I think if this is the case you shouldn't be saying it to your partner because it probably won't go down well. I'm fine with if my girlfriend fancies some of the male models on magazines but wouldn't really like it if she started pointing out specific ones to me and talking in detail about it.

Well, blow me down. Didn't see that one coming. Much.

voodooboo

I beg your pardon, but let's be quite clear at no time did I suggest that your experience was invalid. Show me where i even suggested that. Nor did i ever express the view that it was OK - infact i expressed shock that what I consider to be serious crimes are committed on a daily basis against some women (apparently not all, maybe my mum was one of the lucky ones) and that they don't bother to report it because there is no point.

Regarding the standing up to the men stuff I still don't see why this should be discouraged in you are in a public place where other people are about and you can get away safely. I had no idea that women were so terrified of men.

Anyway, I appear to have inadvertently caused great offence and upset and have attracted a fair bit of bile so I'll be off. Sorry for that, it was not my intention.

Regarding the standing up to the men stuff I still don't see why this should be discouraged in you are in a public place where other people are about and you can get away safely. I had no idea that women were so terrified of men.

Clearly.

But would you, personally, really challenge a man, or a group of men, who are at least a foot taller than you, at least 30 pounds heavier than you, twice as strong as you and who had already shown aggressive behaviour towards you?

I'm still fascinated at the reporting point. What am I reporting exactly? An unknown person committing an unseen act in a public place. I don't know who it was, I couldn't describe them. I couldn't even accurately pinpoint which tube I had been on to within about 10 minutes. What outcome should I expect from my righteous act of reporting? Answer is more stress and aggravation that I could do without. So I do what every other woman who gets harrassed or groped does. I gulp down the horrible churny feeling that it could have been a lot nastier and I might have just got away with a near miss, i seethe for a bit over the humiliation then I get on with my day.