oogling young girls

[typingtoofast]

Myself and my partner have decided to give it another try. He is convinced im the woman for him and has apologised for his regular selfish episodes where I have to explain to him that his behaviour is not condusive to a healthy relationship. Ultimately he's selfish. But he has improved and I have seen a loving, attentive and kind man. I was beginning to think that this was a great new start for our relationship and was glad to give it another shot as had missed him when I decided to end it. The break gave me and him perspective and what was important to us both. All that aside.
We were out today in town and a group of young girls (16yr olds I'd say)were obviously heading off on a halloween party night. I had mentioned how inappropriate I thought the outfits were as they were extreamely revealing. You get the picture. In my mind I'm also thinking how they will catch their death of cold!
He views the girls and says they're out for a good night and laughs. He almost snapped his neck gawping. Now nobody could help it as the outfits as i said were ott. But then he replies they'll be teasing the boys later in the nightclub. I reply yes and that's just wrong.
I have in hay days worn revealing outfits and I replied that I wasn't necessarily looking for sex I was I suppose just rebelling and trying to be adult like.
He replied but kids these days are having sex younger, just look at them,look at the one in the tiny outfit. She'll be having sex tonight with the way she's carrying on.
I told him that's enough, that he looked like a sleezy man oogling.
He replied oh to be back that age again. I'd love to meet her out. Imagine the fun.
I was appalled by two things. One him visioning and two saying it in front of me.
Is this normal? I was disgusted and chose to say nothing for the rest of the evening. But then I think what if middle aged men say these things in their head. He's stupid/honest enough to say it out to me.
Now I'm thinking I am with a sleezy middle aged man and worries me that he would think like that.

twindad76 you didn't address my point about the woman in the NY video, do you really think it would have been in her best interests to challenge any of the men in that video?

Sorry if I'm going off on a tangent here but on the point of male entitlement to harras and touch women, etc., one of the many things I found very telling in the recent DLT court case was his description of himself (and justification for his actions) was "just a big cuddly bear who loves to hug women", why does his right to be that overrule anyone else's rights not to be, or want to be, 'hugged', and why the hell can't he/others see that?

I had no idea that women were so terrified of men.

I honestly think women manage our behaviour and reaction to events described above so well that a lot of men are completely unaware of this.

If you do react or fight back you worry you risk worse so you keep your mouth shut.

I asked a man to 'please leave me alone' once when he kept trying to talk to me. He said 'I can take you any time bitch, calm down.'

He was right, he could've.

Also, if you protest in a public place where twindad thinks you would be safe, you could spend a lot of time looking over your shoulder for later repurcussions.

Anyway, asking women why they don't fight back is a bit like looking to them to take some of the blame again isn't it.

Regarding the standing up to the men stuff I still don't see why this should be discouraged in you are in a public place where other people are about and you can get away safely. I had no idea that women were so terrified of men."

Do you think the presence of other people forms a protective shield allowing us to turn invisible at will? I can tell you, the presence of other people does not discourage the man from behaving this way in the first place.

And what if you're not in a public place?

Don't you think if would be better if men just didn't do this at all, rather than placing the onus on us to fight back?

There's a tone to your posts which makes me very uncomfortable, it comes across a sort of faux innocence and turning the blame back to women as though we've kept some sort of secret from you: "I had no idea that women were so terrified of men"

Fairenuff - I don't think the asking the question "why don't women fight back?" was asking them to take some of the blame (though there's been plenty of that rather horrid attitude on this thread from some men).

I think it's just a very male response - men, I suppose, are more conditioned to choose fight over flight. A moment's consideration should really have told him why women don't fight back, of course. But the fact he asks the question is telling and indicative of the sort of society we are living in. It is, after all, a society in which men largely set the rules of the game. (I'm a man btw).

Well, I dunno

As a man, would you fight back against someone several inches taller and several stones heavier than yourself when you have been approached aggressively for no reason other than just because they can ?

And if you did, what might you think would happen ?

Completely agree, HappyHalloween. It's lazy thinking and a lazy question. It's also a failure of imagination and empathy.

I'm shocked by some of the posts by women on this thread. One thing that I had (quite wrongly) assumed, is that it isn't as prevalent in the UK as it is in some other countries. I think some women on this thread (those living in France?) have compared France unfavourably with the UK when it comes to these sort of assaults. Is that the experience of others? Are there countries in which women say that these assaults are less likely to happen to them?

I'm 5'3.

That's why I don't stand up to them.

They're hardly going to be intimidated by me, are they?!

And as for being terrified of them. I'm not. But I am wary and I'm always aware.

As a man, would you fight back against someone several inches taller and several stones heavier than yourself when you have been approached aggressively for no reason other than just because they can ?

And if you did, what might you think would happen ?

That's exactly what I asked HH and no-one has answered me yet.

Also, imagine the woman on the tube. Surrounded by men, not sure who touched her but announces loudly, 'Could the creep who just touched me leave me the fuck alone please'. Cue a bit of shuffling away and men looking round at each other.

Woman gets off tube. Half a dozen men get off too. She starts walking to her exit. They are behind her. They are following her. Maybe one of them deliberately hangs back a bit but keeps her in his sights. She still has to get home safely. There is no guarantee that there will always be a crowd of protection. You get the picture...

Well I must be a wuss of a man then because I've never tried to fight against someone who was being aggressive (apart from my brother).

...and Fairenuff that narrative is constantly running through women's minds. It may be in the background a lot of the time, to the point where we stop even consciously noticing it most of the time, but there it remains. Always.

Yep I am 5 2 so I ignore and walk away. Also I have had this kind of verbal harassment when I have had my children with me Ffs, so as much as I would like to tell them to fuck off etc I won't do that in front of my children.

I do however usr it as an opportunity to talk to my children and educate them; I have four boys and I will be damed if they grow up thinking this behaviour is ok.

How would you stand up to your boss when you are 17 and very shy?

How would you stand up to your boyfriend's uncle when you are surrounded by his family having a good time?

How do you stand up to the priest who insists on giving you private lessons before your wedding, when he says disgusting things to you.

The woman I am now would deal with it. That is why it would not happen to me now. (I hope) The girl I was then was an easy target.

OK - well the reason i suggested "standing up" was meant to be doing something to make people aware of what was happening by drawing attention to the situation. I don't know, i was thinking of what advice i would give my daughters if they were groped on a bus etc, if a family member put his hands down their pants etc, i would want them to feel they could tell me and not just to say nothing.

Education i don't think will work, the creeps who perpetrate this sort of behaviour know full well that it frightens, humiliates and degrades their victims, in fact to a large degree I bet that is why they do it. I don't think they need to be educated, and saying that all men need to be educated that this s wrong is an insult. The vast majority of men know full well that it is unacceptable and illegal and that's why there are laws against it.

On a final note - I do get very prickly when i read this stuff and the language used, i was trying hard to see if I could understand what made me feel this way. Lets say that I said "Only Muslims engage in suicide bombings and hacking the heads off apostates. Therefore I am wary and careful around Muslims, any Muslim trying to explain that 'not all muslims are like that' doesn't know what he's talking about because he doesn't live in fear of being abducted and beheaded" or "I hear that some africans practice witch craft and children have on occasion been used in their rituals, i don't know which africans have ever been involved in this, or even which black people are africans, but since all the people who were involved must be black I'll treat all black people with suspicion and fear and wont trust them near my children" etc.

Projecting your fears and prejudices onto half the population (however informed by experience) is nothing other than sexism, the tone of it all is depressing to me as well.

i was thinking of what advice i would give my daughters if they were groped on a bus etc, if a family member put his hands down their pants etc, i would want them to feel they could tell me and not just to say nothing

That's very different to what you posted earlier. Yes, of course they could come to you, or another trusted adult and say what has happened.

But do not advise them to confront the aggressor at the time unless they are very sure that they have back up (that will actually intervene, not just stand and watch as many do) and that he will never know where she lives or works or what her routines are. Otherwise, it's not safe. Better to be groped than beaten up, raped or murdered, hey?

That's the world we live in twindad, your daughters and all your female relatives will learn to negotiate the daily dangers of being in the vicinity of men.

And, hell yes, it's depressing.

Think how depressing it is to be verbally abused when you are just going about your daily business! I was just doing the school run the last time it happened to me. This is women's everyday lives, plus the fact that one in four women will be sexually abused or raped. And then we get blamed for it as well.

Education won't help is a very depressing way to to think, it may not stop some men but it may make others think and if we can teach the younger generation its not ok maybe this kind of behaviour can stop being seen as normal.

You're right, it is depressing, twindad

The thing is, though, I'm not 'aware' or 'wary' of men because I read the DM; or because of some sensationalist reporting on the BBc; or because of a FB item on my newsfeed; or something I read on Twitter; or some gossip at work because someone's next door neighbour knows someone who's aunt's friend's daughter heard something in the playground; or because of something a radicalised group has announced/or done...

I have a wariness of men because of something that has been happening to me on a frequent basis since I was 9 years old by ordinary men who are someone's boyfriend/husband/brother/son/cousin/nephew/uncle. Who are all ages and all socio economic groups and all look different. I'm nearly 40. It's happened at work, it's happened when I've been out with my friends, it's happened in the car park at the supermarket, the cinema, on public transport, in pubs, at train stations.

You don't like reading about it here because there are several hundred posts that have made it bit clearer to you. And that's understandable, and a good thing! But please don't tell us now, that on top of everything else, we're just being sexist!

We know that not all men are like this. But then we don't know which strange dog will bite us either. So we are wary of all of them.

If men don't like the fact that the behaviour of other men makes women wary of men, then I'd suggest that the solution lies is tackling the behaviour of these men, rather than making that the fault of women, too.

The subset of men who do this are often doing it to impress other men. If those men made it clear they were unimpressed they might be more likely to stop.

If men knew how common this was (women already know) it might make it less acceptable and more noticed.

In the NY video there are other people on the street. They can see what is going on but do nothing.

That said you do get people who will ask "is this person bothering you?" And if done in the right way (not as a macho territorial act) then it can be helpful.

I was once cornered and harrassed on quite a long bus journey. (Buses I find are bad for this) and despite repeatedly telling him no etc. He carried on. There were no other seats and I couldn't get past him anyway (although now I would loudly and obviously tell him to shift). We arrived at the terminus at night and I was going to sit it out and then speak to the driver as I did not feel safe getting off the bus. Thankfully someone I very very vaguely knew from college who i had not realised was a few seats back got up and did a big hi oh its you can I walk with you.

Now that neatly diffused the situation and got me off the bus but I suppose did not actually confront the harrassing twat's behaviour.

We know that not all men are like this. But then we don't know which
strange dog will bite us either. So we are wary of all of them.

That's not really the best comparison now is it ? You can dress it up anyway you like, but treating half the planet with suspicion and fear because they share same gender as people who perpetrate crimes against women, is sexism. Like I say though, I accept that it seems to a degree practical and informed by experience, but it's sexism none the less, and a lot of the language used seems inevitably to come across as that way.

Also - i do not think by any means any of this is the fault of women, I just doubt that any man actually thinks it''s perfectly fine to slap a woman's bum or grab her breast etc, they know full well it's not.

And the NY video was brought up by the men in my office who frequently comment on misogyny in the press, the street etc. along with other political and social issues. Presumably because the like and respect people and don't like to see others who don't.

They seem to see a criticism of misogyny for what it is a criticism of misogynists not of men.

"Woman gets off tube. Half a dozen men get off too. She starts walking to her exit. They are behind her. They are following her. Maybe one of them deliberately hangs back a bit but keeps her in his sights. She still has to get home safely. There is no guarantee that there will always be a crowd of protection. You get the picture... "

Yes, it made me think of the

So what would be the best comparison?

What do you propose you or anyone else should do about it?

And how exactly have you been a victim of this sexism in a daily on the street basis? How are you or any other man harmed by women being wary of you?

Especially if you were largely unaware of it.

Surely, no more than all adults are harmed by children being taught to be wary of strangers. I am aware they are taught this, I agree with it, so I don't encourage kids I don't know to speak to me unless they are with their parent.

In a inherently sexist world I don't think this perceived sexism is right up there.

So what's your solution?

in reply to twindad

Twindad what do you mean by 'dress it up'?

Everyone knows that every man has the potential to be a threat to women. That is a fact that does not need to be disguised.

Even good guys know this. My dh would never hurt or scare a woman but he knows that they don't know that. If he was walking down a dark, quiet street on his own, he would cross the road rather than walk behind a woman because he is aware that just being there could frighten her.

He is not being sexist, he is just using common sense. He does not take it personally, he just knows how not to inadvertently frighten or intimidate others.

Some people aren't so considerate, maybe because they haven't realised how women feel or maybe because they don't care. This is why we need to educate our male population, especially those we are around a lot such as our sons. There are simple, easy steps that men can take to help the women around them feel safe.